Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

'Time for physics to make its mark on cycling'

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

'Time for physics to make its mark on cycling'

Old 07-26-16, 05:35 PM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
NYMXer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Middletown NY
Posts: 1,495

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix EVO w Hi-Mod frame, Raleigh Tamland 1 and Giant Anthem X

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by RandomTroll

Remember that a person can ride a bike on a treadmill and never pedal..... or fall down. No matter what they try to say in that article, it's the gyroscope effect that keeps you upright and off the pavement (at a certain speed around 3-4 mph) and low speed is due to forces stronger moving forward than sideways (falling)

The articles do bring up some conversational but argumentative points. I got to go back and reread them again, good stuff. A little wacky and opinionated but good stuff!

Oh boy, is my e mail box going to fill up with quote e mails, LOL
NYMXer is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 07:29 PM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,086
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3355 Post(s)
Liked 5,431 Times in 2,810 Posts
Originally Posted by NYMXer
Remember that a person can ride a bike on a treadmill and never pedal..... or fall down. No matter what they try to say in that article, it's the gyroscope effect that keeps you upright and off the pavement (at a certain speed around 3-4 mph) and low speed is due to forces stronger moving forward than sideways (falling)
You think these tiny wheels keep him upright?

Let's get rid of the wheels altogether:
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 07:37 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times in 421 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris Bamford
Thread drift alert! Automotively, some things never change. My motorized passion is vintage motorcars. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what component is common and totally interchangable between my 1906 Orient Buckboard, my Model T Ford and my bride's 2006 PT Cruiser? Without this component the vehicles are next to useless.

My car buddies rarely get this one, but I reckon cyclists will.
The driver. But we're working on getting rid of the driver too.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 08:57 PM
  #29  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,054 Times in 634 Posts
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
A bicycle is a pretty simple machine but the devil is in the details. Anybody who thinks bikes haven't changed in 150 years is simply scoffing at the details.

"Not sure there's really anywhere else to go" That's just another way of saying you haven't thought of it yet but I agree that the simpler the machine, the harder it is to improve.

Right now aerodynamics is big. A fellow rode a streamlined recumbent 85 MPH this spring. Goes to show what can be accomplished by optimizing all of the details for a particular goal.

Another area of significant improvement has been the materials that a bike is made out of. That's not applied science and physics? I can remember thinking that a 22 lb. road bike was about as light weight as was possible. Today the pros have to ballast their bikes to bring them up to the 15 lb. UCI minimum.

Uh - and they call me a Retro Grouch. Maybe a little but at least I can recognize continuous improvement when I see it.
Why the 15 pound UCI limit? Again they are being little dictators.
rydabent is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 09:30 PM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 642 Times in 363 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent
Why the 15 pound UCI limit? Again they are being little dictators.
Why not?

Every racing organization has limiting rules. The guy who I mentioned that rode his recumbent 85 MPH - he had to have two separate TV cameras and displays to see where he was going (he doesn't have a window). Formula 1 has scads limiting rules.
__________________
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 09:38 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Posts: 86

Bikes: 2021 Scott Speedster, 2001 Giant MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius
A motor?
Sorry, nope. Recall I stated the component is completely interchangeable amongst the '06 Orient, Model T and '06 PT Cruiser. So not the motor. Nor is it the gas, oil, air, or driver.

There aren't many hints I could offer that wouldn't just give it away, other than cyclists are more likely to get the answer than car guys and it's not a trick question.
Chris Bamford is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 10:22 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,003
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Daniel4
Can't we generally say the same thing about the car, airplane and the boat?

The car still has four wheels. They're still made of rubber. The steering wheel is still round. The changes have been material, safety and performance improvements on the existing things.
Airplanes have two wings now mostly, monoplane (is that really one wing or two, I always count it as two, left and right wings), instead of 4 as in a biplane or 6 as in a triplane (red baron anyone).

And we mostly have turbo fan engines instead of combustion engine and propellers at least in the big planes. Even the small planes use variable pitch constant speed props compared to fixed props like in the good old days.

Also, about 100 years ago aircraft were mostly tail-draggers so they had a skid or tailwheel compared to the tricycle gear usually used today which uses a front wheel.

We could also go into the materials used, carbon fibre and aluminium versus wood and fabric.
smarkinson is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 10:25 PM
  #33  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
Originally Posted by corrado33
Except physics hasn't made it's mark. They still don't have the equations that govern a bicycle's motions. The article says how they've studied it a bunch, but then someone came along and proved all of those equations incorrect. Then it pretty much ends there.

The sad fact is that no one wants to pay for the research to figure out why bicycles stay upright.

You keep pedaling.


If you stop you have to step to the ground or fall over.


Please.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 10:26 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,003
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris Bamford
Thread drift alert! Automotively, some things never change. My motorized passion is vintage motorcars. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what component is common and totally interchangable between my 1906 Orient Buckboard, my Model T Ford and my bride's 2006 PT Cruiser? Without this component the vehicles are next to useless.

My car buddies rarely get this one, but I reckon cyclists will.
Interesting question. Completely interchangeable between the two models. I'd hazard a guess that we are talking about bearings?
smarkinson is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 10:55 PM
  #35  
Senior Member
 
T Stew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 865

Bikes: All 80s Schwinns: 88Prologue, 88Circuit, 88Ontare, 88KOM, 86SS, 88Tempo, 88V'ger, 80V'ger, 88LeTour, 82LTLuxeMixte, 87 Cimarron, 86H.Sierra, 92Paramount9c

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Chris Bamford
Thread drift alert! Automotively, some things never change. My motorized passion is vintage motorcars. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what component is common and totally interchangable between my 1906 Orient Buckboard, my Model T Ford and my bride's 2006 PT Cruiser? Without this component the vehicles are next to useless.

My car buddies rarely get this one, but I reckon cyclists will.
Hmm, doesn't seem anything of size would be compatible, I'm guessing some small component... my guess would be sparkplug?
T Stew is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 11:17 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: By theBeach and Palos Verdes, CA adjacent
Posts: 553

Bikes: One of each: Road, Hybrid, Trekking

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times in 53 Posts
The seat...or seated driving position.
raceboy is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 11:50 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
Dave Cutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,159

Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 9 Posts
My first bicycle was used, and had been my older brothers. So... I can state with some certainty that bicycles have been basically unchanged for 65 years. My Dad's Roll-fast was near identical as well and was from the late 1930s. Even my first geared bike (a 1963 Schwinn Varsity 10 speed, with fiction shifters) is identical in most respects as current bikes.

Bicycles are what is called a mature technology. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for some big break-through.
Dave Cutter is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 03:44 AM
  #38  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris Bamford
Thread drift alert! Automotively, some things never change. My motorized passion is vintage motorcars. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what component is common and totally interchangable between my 1906 Orient Buckboard, my Model T Ford and my bride's 2006 PT Cruiser? Without this component the vehicles are next to useless.

My car buddies rarely get this one, but I reckon cyclists will.
Sparkplug?
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 05:13 AM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Posts: 86

Bikes: 2021 Scott Speedster, 2001 Giant MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
Sparkplug?
Nope again, sorry.

As a matter of fact spark plugs come in a myriad of heat ranges and also various lengths and thread types. For example, the '06 Orient and Model T uses 1/2" pipe thread plugs whereas the PT Cruiser has 14 mm straight thread plugs and, heat range aside, they are not interchangeable.

Think of a particular component so well conceived that it has remained essentially unchanged for 100+ years. Not only does this component interchange between the various vehicles of my fleet, it does with the neighbor's elderly motorhome and my son's Ford Focus as well.

And I still think cyclists are more likely to get this than car guys. Don't prove me wrong!
Chris Bamford is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 05:26 AM
  #40  
Zip tie Karen
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,006

Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times in 806 Posts
disc brakes?
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 05:27 AM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 12,098

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1240 Post(s)
Liked 94 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris Bamford
Nope again, sorry.

As a matter of fact spark plugs come in a myriad of heat ranges and also various lengths and thread types. For example, the '06 Orient and Model T uses 1/2" pipe thread plugs whereas the PT Cruiser has 14 mm straight thread plugs and, heat range aside, they are not interchangeable.

Think of a particular component so well conceived that it has remained essentially unchanged for 100+ years. Not only does this component interchange between the various vehicles of my fleet, it does with the neighbor's elderly motorhome and my son's Ford Focus as well.

And I still think cyclists are more likely to get this than car guys. Don't prove me wrong!
Schrader valves for the tires?
joejack951 is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 05:55 AM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Posts: 86

Bikes: 2021 Scott Speedster, 2001 Giant MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
Schrader valves for the tires?
BINGO!

Yes, the humble Schrader valve, so right, right from the beginning (and familiar to more cyclists than motorists for sure).

I've driven hundreds of vehicles over the years and this 1913 International Harvester "Highwheeler" is one of only two that didn't need Schrader valves to keep moving.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Schrader valve.jpg (7.3 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg
'13 IHC 01:05:27 FtEdm.jpg (98.3 KB, 102 views)
Chris Bamford is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 06:37 AM
  #43  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,054 Times in 634 Posts
I still say that if the kind of thinking that produce the "rules" at the UCI ran the auto industry, we would still have hand cranks, carbs, wooden spoke wheels, and friction transmissions.
rydabent is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 07:05 AM
  #44  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent
I still say that if the kind of thinking that produce the "rules" at the UCI ran the auto industry, we would still have hand cranks, carbs, wooden spoke wheels, and friction transmissions.
The UCI no more "runs" the bicycle industry than F1 or NASCAR rules "run" the auto industry. But pay no attention, keep beating the tom-toms of your alternate reality.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:01 AM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Dave Cutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,159

Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by Phil_gretz
disc brakes?
I'd like to try disc brakes! Particularly on a rain bike (also used in winter). But I can not see myself buying a new bike.... to use in the worst weather.

But a metal lever pushing down on a tire, a rubber pad squeezing a rim, or an actual disc brake.... these are small potatoes and not a major change in bicycle design.

The [only] three design changes of the bicycle that I am aware of is the original Dandy Horse, a running machine. The Velocipede which was created in many configurations.... all using a crank and pedals. And then the modern Safety bicycle using a gearing system connected with a chain, driveshaft, or belt. The most recent improvement to the safety bicycle is the addition of selected gearing.

But even Karl Drais's (Hobby Horse), running machine introduced in 1817 is easily recognizable as a bicycle... just as is the bike I ride today.

I think people get caught, or wrapped up in/with the idea of revolution in the design change of a mature product. People can devote their lives to such things... and rarely discover measurable improvement. Or improvements are found... (recumbent?)... but aren't immediately welcome because of issues with paradigms and well defined specs and regulations.
Dave Cutter is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:29 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,453

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7628 Post(s)
Liked 3,451 Times in 1,823 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Or improvements are found... (recumbent?)... .
Wait, you said 'improvements."
Maelochs is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:33 AM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 12,098

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1240 Post(s)
Liked 94 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
I'd like to try disc brakes! Particularly on a rain bike (also used in winter). But I can not see myself buying a new bike.... to use in the worst weather.
Just swap your fork and front wheel (or even just the hub) and have the best brake where you really need it. With a cable actuated caliper, you shouldn't need any other new components.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:59 AM
  #48  
Zip tie Karen
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,006

Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times in 806 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
I'd like to try disc brakes!


You have never ridden with disc brakes? Even on a mountain bike? Whoa. You do need to try them out. Hydraulic discs on a quality mountain bike. Braking with a single finger while descending at speed or sliding out around curves. It's a life changing thing.
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 10:05 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
skye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
This is just uninformed BS. The recumbent bicycle has been at the forefront of design development, and in fact, holds the land speed records. Nobody even tries to use an upright design at Battle Mountain. I have seen recumbent design go through tremendous change since the Early 80s, from the Easy Racer to today's lowriders and front-wheel drive recumbents. Anyone who thinks bicycle design has been static just hasn't been looking.
skye is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 12:06 PM
  #50  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,760
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 1,197 Times in 758 Posts
Originally Posted by Garfield Cat
From 22 lbs to 15 lbs is a 31.8% change. That's significant.
Yea, and I think that if you wanted to buy off the shelf or put together a light bike with commonly available components without any special modifications or real compromises in function or safety, I think 13 lb bikes can be said to be in the realm of normally-available top end bikes as a comparison to "best commonly available" 30 years ago.

Then talk about weight weenies. I read recently about a 6 pound geared bike. I don't know what the ultimate weigh weenie geared bike was 30 years ago, but I doubt it was much less than 18 lbs. Take the above 20+ pound bike and get all drillium on it?

a 30-40% weight reduction for typical high end
a 60-70% reduction for obsessively weight weenie

A lot of this is materials science - whether that's "physics" I'll leave that for the engineers and physicists to argue about. To me, the basic design of the typical road or utility bike has changed very little, but materials of the frame and wheels and materials and design of components (brakes and shifting especially) have changed a huge amount.

Last edited by Camilo; 07-27-16 at 12:15 PM.
Camilo is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.