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Old 05-19-17, 09:32 AM   #51
52telecaster
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I ride a compact double. Its a 40, 26 compact double.

My name is Russell and I am a candyass.
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Old 05-19-17, 09:56 AM   #52
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I ride a compact double. Its a 40, 26 compact double...
Sounds like a triple with no big ring. Smart and practical. Just coast when you hit 25 mph. No reason to race downhill.
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Old 05-19-17, 10:00 AM   #53
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Actually a ta knockoff by vo. Its enough for me.
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Old 05-19-17, 10:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
The problem, however, is that many people see a triple on a bike and think that it is for "weak" riders. Some of us see a triple on a bike and think it's for "smart" riders.
No, the "problem is that people judge other people by stupid stuff like ho many chainrings they have on their bike.

Some people ride 1x, some ride SS, some have doubles, some triples.

They All Ride Bikes.

If you need to feel "smarter" than someone else ... well, pick on the number of chainrings, makes as much sense as anything else. If someone else feels a need to feel "stronger," same deal.

I am sure glad I don't need a bicycle to feel a certain way. I am fine even without a bike ... Zero chainrings ....

You know what they say .... "I'm not prejudiced. Some of my best friends don't own bicycles."

Except we all know that bicycle prejudice is a real issue ... for some folks.

Can we maybe at least mention the idea of "Ride what you like, like what you ride"? I know not many here actually Honor the concept, but can we at least Pretend that people who ride bicycles are okay even if their bicycles don't look like ours?

Something about longing for the day when someone's child was judged by the contents of her soul, not the chainrings on her bicycle. Whoever said that, obviously didn't ride.
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Old 05-19-17, 10:18 AM   #55
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Whatever. So many gears, so many choices, so many complaints "I don't have enough gears....."
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Old 05-19-17, 11:07 AM   #56
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Long cage isn't going to shift as precise as a short cage, it's the law....
Tried the new sram ones with a built in clutch to take up slack? It came on my Farley fat bike, 32 front, 42-11 rear, 11 sp. Seems to work well for me. YRMV
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Old 05-19-17, 11:13 AM   #57
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Whatever. So many gears, so many choices, so many complaints "I don't have enough gears....."
Great, except I do have all the gears. I just run out of legs. Then what? HTFU and more coffee?
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Old 05-19-17, 11:17 AM   #58
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No, the "problem is that people judge other people by stupid stuff like ho many chainrings they have on their bike.

Some people ride 1x, some ride SS, some have doubles, some triples.

They All Ride Bikes.

If you need to feel "smarter" than someone else ... well, pick on the number of chainrings, makes as much sense as anything else. If someone else feels a need to feel "stronger," same deal.

I am sure glad I don't need a bicycle to feel a certain way. I am fine even without a bike ... Zero chainrings ....

You know what they say .... "I'm not prejudiced. Some of my best friends don't own bicycles."

Except we all know that bicycle prejudice is a real issue ... for some folks.

Can we maybe at least mention the idea of "Ride what you like, like what you ride"? I know not many here actually Honor the concept, but can we at least Pretend that people who ride bicycles are okay even if their bicycles don't look like ours?

Something about longing for the day when someone's child was judged by the contents of her soul, not the chainrings on her bicycle. Whoever said that, obviously didn't ride.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on bikeforums.
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Old 05-19-17, 12:11 PM   #59
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I went from a 9-speed/triple group to an 11 speed compact double w/ 32T cassette on my latest build, precisely because I wanted ease of setup and reduced shifting in the front. To me (and I ride some very hilly areas) the benefits far outweighs the bigger jumps in the rear. Unless you are touring or doing a ton of climbing, you don't need anything bigger than a 32T in the back with a mid-cage road derailleur.

I am extremely happy not to have to deal with a triple in the front anymore- they are a pain to set up and adjust properly.
Whatever floats your boat. I don't, however, understand the problem people have with setting up front derailers. It's not different from a double to a triple. Set the limit screws and tighten the cable. That's all it takes.

I do question, however, the use of a mid-cage road derailer with a 32 tooth cog. What I call "mid-cage" or what Shimano calls an "SS" derailer, has a capacity to 28 teeth. I would call the GS a long cage derailer.

I also disagree with you that "a 32T in the back" is all anyone needs. First it would depend on what the 32 tooth cog is connected to in the front. A 52/32 gives a very different gear than a 34/32 or a 22/32 and would be useful in only a few situations.

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Most recreational cyclists are weak. Pros are putting out literally 3x the power. There are lots of examples in the world of people getting stuff because itís cool as opposed to getting what they need. I could list half-a-dozen without thinking very hard, but it would likely offend people. For some odd reason, people donít like to admit that they buy stuff thatís impractical just because itís cool.


All about the fashion
I'm not sure that I would agree with the 3 times the power interpretation. It looks to me more like twice the power but I was trying to be at least a little magnanimous

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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
No, the "problem is that people judge other people by stupid stuff like ho many chainrings they have on their bike.

Some people ride 1x, some ride SS, some have doubles, some triples.

They All Ride Bikes.

If you need to feel "smarter" than someone else ... well, pick on the number of chainrings, makes as much sense as anything else. If someone else feels a need to feel "stronger," same deal.

I am sure glad I don't need a bicycle to feel a certain way. I am fine even without a bike ... Zero chainrings ....

You know what they say .... "I'm not prejudiced. Some of my best friends don't own bicycles."

Except we all know that bicycle prejudice is a real issue ... for some folks.

Can we maybe at least mention the idea of "Ride what you like, like what you ride"? I know not many here actually Honor the concept, but can we at least Pretend that people who ride bicycles are okay even if their bicycles don't look like ours?

Something about longing for the day when someone's child was judged by the contents of her soul, not the chainrings on her bicycle. Whoever said that, obviously didn't ride.
The "problem" is that if you use a triple...especially if you have very low gears..., people do look down their noses at you. When was the last time you heard a large high gear called a "macho" gear or spoken of derisively? Even if you are mashing to the point where Jim Beam calls you, people are never dismissive of highly geared bikes.

On the other hand, we always call the inner ring on a triple the "granny" gear. We never call the inner gear on a double anything but the inner chainwheel. That "granny gear" name is meant to be dismissive and/or imply that anyone using one is as "weak as a granny". It's not a term of endearment.

As for the "smarter" approach, I don't do many organized rides but I've done Tour of the Moon a couple of times recently. I've passed many a person on the steep uphill while spinning along in my "granny" gear as they are mashing away at their "macho" gear on the 11% grade bits. I've also gotten not a few comments that they wish they had the gears I had.
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Old 05-19-17, 12:20 PM   #60
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Great, except I do have all the gears. I just run out of legs. Then what? HTFU and more coffee?
Walk.

But, personally, I hate to walk so I have gears that most people would consider stupidly low. I also happen to like going fast on the other side of those hills so I have gears that are (kind of) stupidly high. You can't do that with compact doubles nor 1x systems.
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Old 05-19-17, 12:33 PM   #61
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Is this another ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers.

I am running a long cage and 34 on the rear. On the big long hills around here I am glad I have it, but that little devil on my shoulder says hey fatty, drop 20 and you can go back to normal road gears!

Its all in what you want like, got to enjoy it right? A friend has a triple on his, loves it. Good for him right!
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Old 05-19-17, 03:24 PM   #62
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…I'm not sure that I would agree with the 3 times the power interpretation. It looks to me more like twice the power but I was trying to be at least a little magnanimous…
Top pros have an FTP of >6 watts per kilo where the average recreational cyclist is closer to 2. You’re right that peak power is probably a little closer to 2:1. Either way, the pros are putting out a lot more power and don’t have the need for a granny ring like us normal people.
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Old 05-20-17, 01:12 AM   #63
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I run a 50/34 x 12-28. Why? It's what came with the bike.

And for the terrain around here, the gearing is more than sufficient. A few pros and cons from experience:

Triples. You can't beat the range. However, regardless of how well I think I've adjusted the front der., I inevitably have chain drops. It's quite frustrating grinding up a hill and having that happen or even thinking it might. The triples I've used have been low and mid tier component groups so who knows, maybe this never or rarely happens on the highest end groups.

On the road, the middle ring just feels right. Off road, I climb in the small ring, and descend in the middle ring. The big ring is usually reserved for road descents often on the way home.

Compact double: I'm not fond of it. Only the 5 highest gears in the big ring are quiet. Except cross chained, the small ring is quiet in most all gears. However, I often find I have to shift into the big ring. This means noisy gears.

I don't think I've seen any threads about the noise issue but it is annoying.

I do think that 10 speed is the crossover point where gearing becomes noisy because of more extreme chainlines. I don't notice the problem of a noisy drivetrain in my 8 or 9 speed systems and certainly it was not an issue when I rode 7 speed.

Who knows what the future holds for drivetrains. Is it possible to get to 12 speeds or 13 without extreme chainlines and attendant noise and wear issues? Who knows.
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Old 05-20-17, 01:54 AM   #64
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Only the 5 highest gears in the big ring are quiet. Except cross chained, the small ring is quiet in most all gears. However, I often find I have to shift into the big ring. This means noisy gears.

I don't think I've seen any threads about the noise issue but it is annoying.
It's because compact doubles are often set up with the chainrings offset to the outside, so the small ring can access the whole cassette and the big ring is optimized for the small cogs. Why? Here's a log chart of a typical Shimano 11s 50-34 11-28. Big ring on the left, small ring on the right:



And here's some annotations:



The green ellipses show the 11-15 straight block for each chainring. The straight block for the big ring is contained totally above the straight block for the small ring. And when you're in 50-15 and want to slightly lower your gearing, the next step is to 4.5-step shift into the 34-11.

When you're in the straight block for the 34T ring, there's not a ton of point trying to find intermediate ratios in the gears within the red ellipse; the spacing is good enough already, and the double-shifts won't be comfy.

And when you go below the 34T straight block, you might as well stay in the small ring, because those gears in the red rectangle are redundant and cross-chained. If you really need to get around the issue of there being no 34-16, you can double-shift into the purple-circled 50-23, but people largely won't bother.

So, you get into the big ring when you want to use 50-15 through 50-11, and you otherwise stay in the small ring. Follow the green brackets.

//=========================

Or, at least, that's the theory.

The biggest problem with the theory is that the 4.5-step shift between 50-15 and 34-11 happens right in the middle of a lot of people's flat-ground cruising range. In which case you either stay in the small ring and drop your intensity whenever you're only just slightly spinning out the 34-11 (yuck), 4.5-shift constantly (not for the feint of heart), or just stay in the big ring and suffer from the big step size around the missing 16T cog.

SRAM 11-28 cassettes "solve" this by making the straight block go all the way from 11 to 17, but the compromise is huge step sizes in the granny region.
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Old 05-20-17, 06:01 AM   #65
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HTupolev, I very much like your chart.

However, I very much like my 50-34 with 11-28 cassette.

I also like all my triples. I also like my 52-42 with 12-28.

I have never found myself unable to find a gear except occaisionally when a little tired into very high headwind and then, even on triples, sometimes my most comfortable cadence might be a quarter-tooth more or less than what I can find, even in the middle of the middle ring where the top of the small ring and bottom of the big ring give me so many options.

Maybe I need a quadruple and an IGH hub with external gears also? Or a CVT?.

Some people just ride the bike and like it.

As has been noted ... somewhere in this or some related thread .... for decades people had two gears on their bikes. For years ten was the mecca.

I am all for the "perfect" riding experienced, or perhaps I should say the Optimized riding experience ... but as soon as I finish work I am goping to grab one of my imperfect bikes and go for a ride and it might just be the best part of my day.

For me, I guess, ignorance is bliss.
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Old 05-20-17, 06:58 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
I ride a compact double. Its a 40, 26 compact double.

My name is Russell and I am a candyass.
That sounds great. Which make and model is it?
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Old 05-20-17, 07:18 AM   #67
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I see all these new bikes and component groups are exclusively compact doubles, the triple is relegated to the junk pile alongside rim brakes, freewheels and friction shifting.

Help me understand the advantage of a compact double 50/34 with an 11~36 cassette and a long cage mountain bike derailleur. All I see is double the step size between gears (11%~14% vs ~5%~7%), there's no weight advantage with that boat anchor cassette and long cage mtb derailleur. Add in the sloppy shifting a long cage derailleur provides compared to short/medium cages.

I'm running stone-age triple, 50/39/24 with a 9-speed 14~28 cassettes, single tooth steps from ~28" to 93" gearing, medium cage rear derailleur.

Hmmm, what am I missing?
You miss only that which you can rationalize you miss. You chose your gear and rationalized that they are what you need. Some see advantages in what they chose as you see an advantage in yours. Differences in choices does not lump people in the "right" or "wrong".

Reading your responses does not indicate any want for "help in understanding" when you clearly favor the choices you've already made and scoff at others for making theirs.

And no...fighting the Indians to get them off their land so they can claim it for their own is not a sign of a real man, it just made them better thieves.

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Old 05-20-17, 07:46 AM   #68
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Surely you're missing out on top end speed? Unless you're regularly riding a very hilly terrain a 50/14 ratio will get you nowhere quickly. All those gears wasted when it comes to strong flat/downhill riding you need bigger gears right?


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I see all these new bikes and component groups are exclusively compact doubles, the triple is relegated to the junk pile alongside rim brakes, freewheels and friction shifting.

Help me understand the advantage of a compact double 50/34 with an 11~36 cassette and a long cage mountain bike derailleur. All I see is double the step size between gears (11%~14% vs ~5%~7%), there's no weight advantage with that boat anchor cassette and long cage mtb derailleur. Add in the sloppy shifting a long cage derailleur provides compared to short/medium cages.

I'm running stone-age triple, 50/39/24 with a 9-speed 14~28 cassettes, single tooth steps from ~28" to 93" gearing, medium cage rear derailleur.

Hmmm, what am I missing?
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Old 05-20-17, 09:05 AM   #69
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I ride a compact double. Its a 40, 26 compact double.

My name is Russell and I am a candyass.
Smart. A 1X with a couple of bailout gears. If I were forced to part with my triple, I would probably go with something like that.
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Old 05-20-17, 09:10 AM   #70
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This is something that people say all the time and, frankly, I don't understand it. The last bike I owned with a double may have been a Sears 10 speed from the late 60s. Everything else has been triples. I've ridden some doubles and worked on a whole bunch of them but I've never found them to shift any differently from a properly adjusted triple. That includes very wide triples like 46/36/20 and 52/39/24. All of my triples...personally I have 8 of them along with 4 other bikes for family members...shift as crisply and cleanly as any double that I've tried or worked on.

As for "cheaper components", a dirty secret for Shimano (and only Shimano) is that all of their expensive front derailers are...well...crap. They are gorgeous pieces of engineering but there in lies the problem. All that "engineering" in the form of sculpting and tweaking have resulted in their high end front derailers being too narrow and too finicky when it comes to set up. It doesn't take much in the way of chain deflection on, say, an Ultegra front derailer to rub. It can be very difficult to set up an Ultergra so that the lower 3 gears can be used without chain rub.

Their cheaper derailers...road and mountain...have less sculpting and are wider between the derailer plates so they are more forgiving and easier to set up for a wider range. It's been that way for a very long time.



If there is a difference, it would be tiny and, for most people, undetectable. On the other hand, you could use the same ratio for a triple and nothing would really change. Other than a 3rd ring, a 50/34/24 triple wouldn't be any different than a 50/34 double. Most people are going to opt for a slightly higher middle ring...a 39 is pretty common...which may actually improve the shifting because the chain doesn't have to climb as big a hurdle to get to the outer ring.



Well you kind of have to stay in one chainring, don't you? It's not like you have much choice. Personally when I compare a compact double to a triple like this, all I see is a giant hole in the middle of the gearing.

For example, if you are riding along in the 50/15 combination with 7.1 m development and you have to shift to the inner ring, you drop to 4.7 m development. More importantly, you are traveling at 38 kph at 90 rpm. To match the speed, you have to increase your rpm to 130. Most people find that highly uncomfortable. Or you have to coast until the bike slows enough for the rpms to be more comfortable.

With the triple, the shift is more natural feeling. The shift goes from 7.1 m development to 5.5 m development. More importantly, the speed and rpm shift are smaller. To match speed, you only need to increase rpms to about 114 which is fairly comfortable for most people.

I've never thought that bicycle companies understand gearing all that well as it is and the compact double just confirms that. If they really understood gearing, they would use something like this gearing. This gives the range that mere mortals need but the shift pattern is dead simple. A shift on the front or rear results in the same gear change. The close chainring size results in crisp shifts and the shifts feel "natural". It's essentially what the compact double wants to do but really can't.



Again, you have to use a wider range and tolerate more cross-chaining. Triples allow for better chain alignment without having to "tolerate" a bad thing.



Both systems have duplicates. The compact double actually has more "non-feasible" gears than the triple because of the change in rpm necessary to use those gears. Going back to the 34/15 gear at 90 rpm and 26 kph, if you upshift to the outer ring, you are suddenly pedaling a gear that requires slowing the cadence to 61 rpm to match the speed. You are "lugging" the engine and need to shift 3 times in the back to get to a similar speed and rpm. Frankly, I find doing multiple shifts (one front and three back) to be far complicated than a triple ever is.



No, it's all "marketing". Expensive bikes are sold to wanna be racers or they are used by professional racers. Sure, I could ride a compact double but I just choose not to. Most people just getting into the sport would benefit from having a wider range is easier to shift and ride than something that is used at a professional level.

The problem, however, is that many people see a triple on a bike and think that it is for "weak" riders. Some of us see a triple on a bike and think it's for "smart" riders.
Well said. I pretty much agree on all points. I think that when Shimano went to 10 and 11 speed systems, they took away triples. I understand why they did that, but at the very least, I think they should have geared compact doubles lower for the majority of riders, who don't need a 50 tooth chainring and could probably get by with something as small as 44, or even 40. They they could make the small chainring more of a bailout gear of 30 teeth or smaller.
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Old 05-20-17, 11:59 AM   #71
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What a shame you couldn't buy a 46/36, eh? Shimano RS500 46/36 10 170mm Black Speed Double Chainset EV220576

http://www.artscyclery.com/Shimano_U...e-SH68CS6.html

Or a 48-34 ...
http://harriscyclery.net/product/sug...teeth-3416.htm
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Old 05-20-17, 01:43 PM   #72
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Today I rode 60 miles and climbed 3400 ft using a compact double with 11-32 cassette. It was fun.

Just felt like saying that.


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Old 05-20-17, 03:52 PM   #73
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Yesterday I did 47 miles with 4,600ft on a 1X. By the reckoning of some of the posters 'round here, it's really a miracle I'm still alive.
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Old 05-20-17, 04:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Yesterday I did 47 miles with 4,600ft on a 1X. By the reckoning of some of the posters 'round here, it's really a miracle I'm still alive.
We obviously don't know what we are doing.

This thread makes me want to go on another 56 mi, 2600 ft group ride with my 48/16 fixed gear.


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Old 05-20-17, 04:51 PM   #75
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This thread makes me want to go on another 56 mi, 2600 ft group ride with my 48/16 fixed gear.
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