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  1. #76
    Toyota Racing Dev. PWRDbyTRD's Avatar
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    freak set me up on a nice big downhill...I wonder if I could get them to glow. I can get them to smoke and give off a horrid scent as is. cryogenic complains every time I brake heavy and he's behind me.
    Linkage...My 2004 Kona Hoss Dee-Lux My Mindless Banter
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  2. #77
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    Discs HAVE to handle heat better because they create much more heat in the process! It's solving a problem created by the solution.
    Discs can be used to slow descents of steep hills without fear of fade due to hot brake pads unlike rim brakes
    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    A road rim doesn't get very hot under most riding conditions.
    I've experienced brake fade on a road bike on a long fast decent before and it's not a pleasant feeling. So even though the temp might be lower it's certainly enough to have an effect
    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    And I've never blown off a clincher on ANY road descent.
    I've seen it happen after a long decent
    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    Now, I can't back this up with testing, but it would seem to me that a rim would be better at dissipating heat due to larger surface area moving through the wind
    But unlike a rim a disc is away from the tire and the heat dissipates without effecting either the tire or the pads
    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    And if I remember, aluminum (rims) transfers heat better than steel (rotors). (Aluminum has a lower heat capacity, but higher conductance.) And it's true that a rim does directly heat the tire, it dissipates what little heat it generates very quickly.
    Not quickly enough to prevent fade or the infrequent detonated tube. Just a side note they don't use aluminum in rims because it transfers heat better. they use it because steel rims are heavy and in truth rubber compound brake pads have a tough time gripping them due to the hardness of the material.
    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM

    Tandems, downhill, mountain and cross bikes are a great application for disc brakes. But road brakes work just fine; don't fix a nonexistent problem.
    So you don't ride in the rain? You don't ride long downhills? you don't believe that discs are FAR superior to traditional rim brakes in every aspect except weight?
    Personally I like the knowledge that my brakes will perform in a safe consistent manner regardless of the weather or what terrain I'm riding.
    You can stick with your delusion that only "those" people benefit from having superior braking. Imagine what would be possible if roadies didn't have to conserve their brakes and could use them without fear of puddles or fade.
    Mark my words there will be advances in discs made in the Road sector.


    By the way Sparky there's a lovely little feature called "Reply with Quote"
    It looks like this:
    and is found in the lower right corner of every post.

  3. #78
    Good Afternoon! SamHouston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    So you don't ride in the rain? You don't ride long downhills? you don't believe that discs are FAR superior to traditional rim brakes in every aspect except weight?
    Personally I like the knowledge that my brakes will perform in a safe consistent manner regardless of the weather or what terrain I'm riding.
    You can stick with your delusion that only "those" people benefit from having superior braking. Imagine what would be possible if roadies didn't have to conserve their brakes and could use them without fear of puddles or fade.
    Rain, terrain modify your riding regardless of their effect on brake performance. In rain if you aren't able to brake evenly or lock up your brake it wasn't working properly to begin with. I ride in the rain fairly well every time it rains and I don't concern myself at all with brake performance as my brake technique is modified by street conditions regardless. It's easy to imagine what would be possible if roadies didn't have to conserve their brakes. If as you imply they used them more due to the percieved improvement they'd arrive at the finish with less energy and minutes off their times. Or they would as is usually the case use them as little as possible and let the road conditions decide how they use them. Fear of puddles? In a turn maybe but that's a traction issue. Grit is gross, pads that don't grip as well when wet are issues even the least competent rider can contend with easily. Fade? Maybe in the Huge hills you're riding in Florida that's a problem but I don't hear a lot of complaints elsewhere. A serious ride is worth a set of pads, a really nice bike deserves cork pads for a single use.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    Mark my words there will be advances in discs made in the Road sector.
    Probably, and if there is they'll likely develop in the manner I suggested, Light and low profile and -very important- aesthetically in a way that compliments road trends. Integrated into the front fork if possible, with no cables exposed.

    Even if the technology is developed it isn't likely that anyone will consider it a great leap. "Far superior" is a stretch for a device that if used more frequently as a result of it's "Far superior" performance only results in a loss of momentum and energy.

    Clinchers were a leap with many and have only a few detractors. Clinchers made it easier for Joe Blow to go for a ride. Integrated shifting, that's a leap even larger than friction to indexed shifting. It freed riders from what before were neccesary movements that could affect your center of gravity and made it easier (many agree) to utilize your gears to the fullest advantage. Derailluers, a great great leap ahead for road applications and later MTBs. Disc brakes? Great for off-road but it's advantages are fully realized in the slop when off-road. If it's race day and raining, sure I'm out there in it. But for training....I like trails, trails don't like me, especially when they are wet. V-brakes work fine in dry to almost dry. DH? I'd have discs.

    Not a great leap, specialized, not neccesary or they would already be. The tech is there, tons of money is spent on road racing R&D. Discs aren't a priority and it isn't fear of change that makes it so. No demand.

    So if it means so much to you that you have to be rude to strangers then by all means Sparky, build us some brakes. You're a bike mechanic, right?

  4. #79
    Good Afternoon! SamHouston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvoid
    What I want to see is a really strong and thin 2.5" wide carbon brake disc. I just want to see my brake discs glow at night. Forget dissipation, I want heat retention.
    That would be sweet lookin. How about discs or rims with flakes of magnesium? Sparkly stops!

  5. #80
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamHouston
    Fade? Maybe in the Huge hills you're riding in Florida that's a problem but I don't hear a lot of complaints elsewhere.
    Why does everyone make the ASSUMPTION that I've only ever ridden in Florida? That's just plain silly.

  6. #81
    la vache fantôme phantomcow2's Avatar
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    I dont get it, you make it sound as if the instant rims get wet braking power is reduced to nothing. I just did a muddy ride saturday, i stopped very quickly still. It was raining here like the monsoons(ask somebody who lives in upper new england), yet i stopped fine. My brakes squealed like truck but i set the toe better and they are silent.
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  7. #82
    Ride it, don't fondle it! Wheel Doctor's Avatar
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    So anyway, I think the horse is dead.

  8. #83
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Brakes are for ******* anyway.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    Discs can be used to slow descents of steep hills without fear of fade due to hot brake pads unlike rim brakesI've experienced brake fade on a road bike on a long fast decent before and it's not a pleasant feeling. So even though the temp might be lower it's certainly enough to have an effectI've seen it happen after a long decentBut unlike a rim a disc is away from the tire and the heat dissipates without effecting either the tire or the padsNot quickly enough to prevent fade or the infrequent detonated tube. Just a side note they don't use aluminum in rims because it transfers heat better. they use it because steel rims are heavy and in truth rubber compound brake pads have a tough time gripping them due to the hardness of the material.
    So you don't ride in the rain? You don't ride long downhills? you don't believe that discs are FAR superior to traditional rim brakes in every aspect except weight?
    Personally I like the knowledge that my brakes will perform in a safe consistent manner regardless of the weather or what terrain I'm riding.
    You can stick with your delusion that only "those" people benefit from having superior braking. Imagine what would be possible if roadies didn't have to conserve their brakes and could use them without fear of puddles or fade.
    Mark my words there will be advances in discs made in the Road sector.


    By the way Sparky there's a lovely little feature called "Reply with Quote"
    It looks like this:
    and is found in the lower right corner of every post.
    Yeah thanks. I find it annoying when people quote the ENTIRE page, when referring only to a few specific details, thus my solution.
    25 years of road riding and racing in hilly terrain has never resulted in compromised braking - no fear of "puddles or fade" here. But then again, perhaps I don't ride the brakes on the descents like you do! And that's with single pivot Campy calipers which pale in comparison to dual pivot brakes available.

  10. #85
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
    Yeah thanks. I find it annoying when people quote the ENTIRE page, when referring only to a few specific details, thus my solution.
    Never heard of the "Backspace" or "Delete" keys there Sparky? You obviously know how to cut and paste, so this shouldn't be news to you.

  11. #86
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classic1
    Brakes are for ******* anyway.
    Exactly! All they do is slow you down.

  12. #87
    Raising the Abyss celticfrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan
    You all do know that the limiting point for either disc brake system (rim or rotor) is the adhesion of the tyre on the road surface? It doesn't matter a hoot how much stopping power one or the other can theoretically provide, once that point of adhesion is exceeded, you're in lock-up mode.

    I like the rim disc system -- it's simple, efficient when properly adjusted for mechanical advantage and with pads that are of appropriate compound.

    The only distinct advantage I can see for disc brakes is the heat factor on very steep downhills with sharp, low speed corners. But I have not encountered melted tubes from that yet, so I am happy with my current set-ups.
    Correctamundo --- all the stopping power in the world won't do much when that stopping power is applied to a skinny 23cm roadie tire. The rim brakes have plenty of enough power to keep the 23cm tire locked (if needed), so there's no need for a stronger braking system.
    "...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."

  13. #88
    Senior Curmudgeon FarHorizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticfrost
    Correctamundo --- all the stopping power in the world won't do much when that stopping power is applied to a skinny 23cm roadie tire. The rim brakes have plenty of enough power to keep the 23cm tire locked (if needed), so there's no need for a stronger braking system.
    OK - I'll say it AGAIN:

    ROTFLMAO!

    Rim brakes don't work if the rim is bent.
    Rim brakes generate heat that can (and has) caused tires to explode off the rim.
    Rim brakes wear away at the soft aluminum of the rim.
    Rim brakes work poorly in wet weather.
    Rim brakes often work not at all in ice and snow.
    Rim brakes quit working once they're hot (this is why the MTB world went disc).
    Rim brakes can interfere with fender mounting where desired.
    Rim brakes require opening to remove tires wider than the rim.

    I could go on, but why???

    If you don't "get" disc brakes, that's your problem. They're better in every way, and will eventually become standard on all bicycles (just like they have on airplanes, trucks, cars, motorcycles, mountain bikes, etc.)...

    Don't believe it? Just wait!

  14. #89
    kipuka explorer bkrownd's Avatar
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    Disc brakes don't make any sense for most light bikes. Rim brakes are simple, cheap, reliable, and do the job just fine. Disc brakes are complex, expensive, and total overkill for most pavement riding. They make sense for heavier bikes like touring bikes, or for bikes that wallow in the mud.

    Bicycles are not airplanes, trucks, cars, motorcycles. The amount of momentum that needs to be converted to heat during braking is vastly greater for those vehicles.
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  15. #90
    Raising the Abyss celticfrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarHorizon
    OK - I'll say it AGAIN:

    ROTFLMAO!

    Rim brakes don't work if the rim is bent.
    Rim brakes generate heat that can (and has) caused tires to explode off the rim.
    Rim brakes wear away at the soft aluminum of the rim.
    Rim brakes work poorly in wet weather.
    Rim brakes often work not at all in ice and snow.
    Rim brakes quit working once they're hot (this is why the MTB world went disc).
    Rim brakes can interfere with fender mounting where desired.
    Rim brakes require opening to remove tires wider than the rim.

    I could go on, but why???

    If you don't "get" disc brakes, that's your problem. They're better in every way, and will eventually become standard on all bicycles (just like they have on airplanes, trucks, cars, motorcycles, mountain bikes, etc.)...

    Don't believe it? Just wait!
    ROTFLMAO!

    Where in my post did I say I didn't believe that disc brakes would replace rim brakes?

    If my rims are so bent that my rim brakes cease to work properly, do you really think I'm gonna be riding the ROAD bike at all?

    All your points about disc brakes vs. rim brakes are correct --- but they just don't apply to the context of this thread. HINT: take a sec to read the title of this thread.
    "...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."

  16. #91
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    If events like the TdF were held in January and included some night stages, we would start seeing road bikes with disk brakes (and efficient lighting systems as well).
    As it is, road bikes are designed to sacrifice everything for maximum performance on dry pavement in warm weather during daylight. Disk brakes are simply not required for this mission.

    Paul
    (who wonders whether making cycle racing a four season sport would cause it to be more exciting, as well as more relevant to normal transportation)

  17. #92
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkrownd
    Disc brakes are complex, expensive, and total overkill for most pavement riding.
    Applesauce. A mechanical disc brake is no more complex than a single pivot caliper brake. A hydraulic is even less complex.
    I also find it hilarious for a roadie to assert that being "expensive" is an issue. Especially when a set of Ultegra 6600 caliper's cost $2 MORE than a set of Avid BB7's Also It's a lot cheaper to replace a rotor when it's worn out than a eniter rim.

    Now here's another funny bit: the Avid BB7's I mentioned above weigh 367 grams, the 6600's weigh 330 a whopping 37 grams more. Not bad for something that was reffered to as "heavy" The Avid Jucy 7's come in at 397 grams including levers and hose. These are MTB components, just imagine what they could do with the reduced weight and braking requirements of a road bike. Maybe some ceramic / composite rotors?
    Last edited by Raiyn; 06-09-05 at 06:56 PM.

  18. #93
    Senior Curmudgeon FarHorizon's Avatar
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    Road bikes WILL all eventually have disc brakes. Why? Better technology for the job. All who say "I don't ride in the rain, I don't ride with bent rims, etc." are correct ONLY when comparing today's rim brakes to today's MTB-based disc brakes. When road-bike discs are designed, they'll be smaller, lighter, integrated aerodynamically into both the wheel hub and into the fork blade, weigh less, stop better, and probably be significantly cheaper. You can claim that rim brakes are adequate all you want - the future is DISC!

  19. #94
    kipuka explorer bkrownd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    [color=blue]Applesauce. A mechanical disc brake is no more complex than a single pivot caliper brake. A hydraulic is even less complex.
    I also find it hilarious for a roadie to assert that being "expensive" is an issue. Especially when a set of Ultegra 6600 caliper's cost $2 MORE than a set of Avid BB7's Also It's a lot cheaper to replace a rotor when it's worn out than a eniter rim.
    A rim brake is simpler. It's just a cable, a bit of metal to hold the pad, a rubber brake pad, and a rim that's already part of the wheel to begin with. I've never had to replace a rim. And posting a link to ultra-expensive $72 brakes is just silly.
    I don't pay anywhere near a fraction of that for brakes.

    There's no need for "better technology for the job." The old technology already does just fine.
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  20. #95
    Good Afternoon! SamHouston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichealW* FarHorizon**
    *"They have to be stiff but with no suspension they are not as comfortable."

    **Almost all of the MTB style bikes have both suspension AND disc brakes, so the comfort argument fails.
    Doubtful that Micheal suggests that discs don't work with suspension...more likely he suggests that to utilize discs on a road bike means beefing up the front fork beyond what is considered ideal for road racing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarHorizon
    Road bikes WILL all eventually have disc brakes. Why? Better technology for the job. All who say "I don't ride in the rain, I don't ride with bent rims, etc." are correct ONLY when comparing today's rim brakes to today's MTB-based disc brakes. When road-bike discs are designed, they'll be smaller, lighter, integrated aerodynamically into both the wheel hub and into the fork blade, weigh less, stop better, and probably be significantly cheaper. You can claim that rim brakes are adequate all you want - the future is DISC!
    I couldn't locate the post that includes a rider saying that they don't ride in the rain. Also unavailable was any mention of a rider stating they don't ride with bent rims. These posts must have been deleted.
    No one disagrees with the remainder of the statement. Occasionally a computer monitor with a bright light source behind the user becomes reflective leading the user to continue arguing with the only one there to argue with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    (who wonders whether making cycle racing a four season sport would cause it to be more exciting, as well as more relevant to normal transportation)
    There are all season races...they just ain't legal or sanctioned + you're absolutely right, it came about because it was relevent to what we considered normal.

  21. #96
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkrownd
    A rim brake is simpler. It's just a cable, a bit of metal to hold the pad, a rubber brake pad, and a rim that's already part of the wheel to begin with. I've never had to replace a rim. And posting a link to ultra-expensive $72 brakes is just silly.
    I don't pay anywhere near a fraction of that for brakes.

    There's no need for "better technology for the job." The old technology already does just fine.
    Ultra expensive? If I wanted to do that I would have posted the Dura Ace calipers or maybe those carbon brakes from the other page. Ultegra is much more in the reach of the average Joe and is fairly representative of weight.

    You sell rim brakes short in terms of their complexity as well. Have you actually serviced a dual pivot before?

  22. #97
    Toyota Racing Dev. PWRDbyTRD's Avatar
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    Here we go folks, ready!

    Disc brake http://www.pricepoint.com/detail.htm...8&hprice=69.98
    Road Caliper http://www.performancebike.com/shop/....cfm?SKU=18384

    Sorry I just had to
    Linkage...My 2004 Kona Hoss Dee-Lux My Mindless Banter
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  23. #98
    kipuka explorer bkrownd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    Ultegra is much more in the reach of the average Joe and is fairly representative of weight.

    You sell rim brakes short in terms of their complexity as well. Have you actually serviced a dual pivot before?
    Brakes don't weigh enough to worry about weight differences, IMO. I ride the bike equivalent of a pickup truck. What the hell is a dual-pivot? I'm a sensible person (average Joe) who uses "V" and cantilever brakes on my all-purpose bikes - gotta have the clearance in case I decide to go off-roading. $20 will set you up plenty fine.

    Just before I moved to The Rainiest City In The US I considered the disc-vs-rim thing for a bit, and came to the conclusion that unless I was living up in Kaumana, dropping 1000+ feet of elevation a day, it didn't make sense to have disc brakes. I didn't plan to live that far from the office, so I stuck with the Old Skool brakes, and have had no problems so far. I don't want the tighter tolerances of disc brakes to worry about, and I can use the extra $100 elsewhere. I like to Keep It Simple. (However, I do think the mounting points should be standard on most frames.) I doubt most other people need fancy brakes, either.
    Last edited by bkrownd; 06-10-05 at 04:19 AM.
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  24. #99
    la vache fantôme phantomcow2's Avatar
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    Hey look! Disc brakes can be expensive too when you compare top of the line to top of the line!
    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...isc+Brake.aspx
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  25. #100
    Ride it, don't fondle it! Wheel Doctor's Avatar
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    Cripes, get over it! You want disks on yo' road steed get em. However, don't expect everbody to agree with you. For competitive weight weenies and aerodynamic types. You will get "No Sale". You WILL see for 2006' more bikes for the road/and???? with disks. They will be flat bars, sport comfort and hybrids. Don't expect the true competitive riders and wannabe road bike's to be sportin' em' any time soon.

    If I were building a bike for pure loaded touring/and or commuting I would elect for disks.

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