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Old 08-11-05, 04:45 PM   #26
genec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc70
Very well stated.

I too have recently gone to clip style pedals, since about 3 weeks ago.
I find absolutley no difference in performance at all.
(Eliminating the false claim by so many, for the average mediocre cyclist)
I also have a lot of discomfort with my feet now, mostly sore bottoms.
I really like my toe straps and the comfort of wearing good sneakers.

I will however keep using the clips for another 3-4 weeks just to make sure
I give them a enough time to see if there is any difference, though I seriously doubt it.

I love how so many new or beginner average riders are so quick to hail the benefits
of something when their bicycle is a lot better than they are!
I always tell them, "When you become better than your bike, you can start
extolling the likes of weight savings, and high tech gadgets..."
Until then though...just shut up and ride!

If you are going to go with clips... and toe straps (heaven forbid)... "toe clips," look into some cycling shoes such as these which have "nylon-reinforced sole provides good power transfer while maintaining enough flex to make walking comfortable."

Back in the day I used to use Avocet shoes that had a small steel plate in the sole to transfer the pedal pressure... otherwise the shoes looked just like any other kind of sneakers. The reinforcement will reduce the foot pain. I doubt those old Avocet shoes even exist anymore now with clipless as king.
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Old 08-12-05, 02:03 AM   #27
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So in order to summarize everything that has been stated so far, one would just have to say—GO CLIPPLESS!!!

Not that it matters a whole lot, but I personal would have to agree with the thread's general consensus.
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Old 08-12-05, 02:49 AM   #28
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"I really like my toe straps and the comfort of wearing good sneakers."
Yeah, it's real comfortable having the pedal body dig into the bottom of your foot as your "sneaker" bends under the pressure of each pedal stroke!
Disregard FarHorizon's misguided comments - he never mentions that clipless pedals were designed for SAFETY! Look ski bindings designed them so riders who used cleated shoes didn't suffer twisting injuries during falls. Your feet sometimes didn't come out of the old pedals and you got hurt (in addition to the road rash!).
Pro or casual rider, everyone will benefit from using clipless pedals. Better for the knees (if properly set up) and you use more leg muscles.
FarHorizon's agrument basically adds that it's better to have your feet fly off the pedals at 40mph on a hairy descent than at 0mph at a stoplight. Hogwash!
FarHorizon is like many long time cyclists who have used toe clips forever - it's hard to relearn the pedal release. But if you don't waste your time learning toe clips, you'll pick up clipless really fast.
Go clipless - it's great for practically everyone!
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Old 08-12-05, 02:57 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
"I really like my toe straps and the comfort of wearing good sneakers."
Yeah, it's real comfortable having the pedal body dig into the bottom of your foot as your "sneaker" bends under the pressure of each pedal stroke!
How is it that so many people miss a something so clearly labeled?
Makes it so much easier for people to tell who the heck you're responding to.
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Old 08-12-05, 06:36 AM   #30
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Clipless or platform...

I also like my Crank Brothers pedals very much, I like the security of my foot on the pedal, I like the added effort I can expend while climbing a steep hill, and I like being able to put effort evrywhere on the pedal stroke.

However, I do find myself wondering how much benefit there is?

For a competitive cyclist, being able to use more muscles is obviously of great benefit. But for a casual ride, one may not be using the upstroke much at all, at least I don't unless I am actively concentrating to do it, but then I always leave my family behind. And a month ago, I had to use normal pedals for 2 weeks, and while I missed my egg beaters I can't honestly say that it would have made that much difference.

So, how big is the benefit for the non-competetive rider? 10%, or more? Or less?? Is the money spent on pedals and shoes truly worth it? Try to answer these questions objectively.
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Old 08-12-05, 09:09 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
How is it that so many people miss a something so clearly labeled?
Makes it so much easier for people to tell who the heck you're responding to.
Looks like Raiyn is on the "how to use the computer" rant again!
I actually know how to cut & paste with my keyboard, don't need to use the "Reply w/ quote" everytime, especially when I want to refer to ONE line of text. Easier to cut and past one line than it is to "reply w/ quote" and have to delete all the unwanted garbage!
So relax and switch to decaf!
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Old 08-12-05, 09:23 AM   #32
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I will make one concession about clipless pedals, however.
Clipless are not for everyone. Here's one example.....
A retired couple who buy two comfort bikes to do casual riding. Even though they MIGHT see an advantage of clipless at some point, the difficulty of learning the entry and release and expense of new pedals and shoes probably wouldn't warrant the use of clipless pedals. Plus, falling over due to feet not disengaging might result in broken bones. But my guess is that very few true casual cyclists read posts in this forum, so it's self-correcting in a sense.
But most new avid riders today can really benefit from clipless. Especially those who have never used toe clips. It's the "pull foot back to get out of toe clips" response learned over years of toe clip use that gets the seasoned rider in trouble when converting to clipless. The foot doesn't come out that way! It took me probably six months for the release motion to become second nature - that is I released without thinking during technical riding/trials. (This is after 10+ years of toe clip usage.)
Using clipless doesn't only allow one to simply "push down & pull up." It allows rotational force on the pedals in all directions of the pedal stroke - a real plus.
Clipless pedals, suspension and indexed shifting are the three greatest advances in bicycling technology in the last 25 years.
Go clipless!
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Old 08-12-05, 10:22 AM   #33
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I've been thinking about this a bit and think I have an example that might help.

Think of clipless pedals like good track shoes (this is comparing to platform pedals). If all you plan to do is walk then good track shoes are pretty worthless. But if you plan on running then the track shoes pay off. They give you the best traction as you run. They let you perform to your full potential.

But those shoes are not 'shoes of Mercury' out of some video game that do the work for you. You still have to do the work.

I think it is the same for bikes and clipless. They let you perform, but they do not do the work for you. The one difference is that on a bike the line is not as clear as it is between walking and running. Even if you do not work hard that often clipless can still pay off. I do work a fair amount of the time, but I also get results when not working when a light is about to change and find I can accelerate much more easily, making a light I would have otherwise missed.

On a side issue. There are some things that almost do the work for you, or at least cut back a lot on extra work. Street tires for street use comes to mind.
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Old 08-12-05, 02:13 PM   #34
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Since everyone's now had the chance to jump all over my "anti-clipless" stance, let me list the reasons why I HATE clipless:

1. I want to be able to bike in whatever shoes I have on
2. I don't climb, don't spin, and don't race
3. I live in an alluvial plain where the highest "hill" is less than fifty feet
4. I'd rather get off the bike quickly in an unforseen emergency stop
5. I'm "duckfooted" by nature & my feet aren't comfortable parallel to the frame
6. My hybrid bike has wide chainstays and my feet hit if parallel to the frame
7. The clipless shoes I tried weren't wide enough for my feet
8. The clipless shoes I tried had rigid soles that I couldn't walk comfortably in
9. The clipless shoes I tried had cleats that scarred up the floors
10. I'm old enough that if I fall, I hurt - and take a long time to heal

None of these reasons may pertain to you or be valid in your life. So be it. If you love clipless pedals and shoes, I certainly won't stand in your way. I will say, though, that just because you love them doesn't make them the right choice for everyone.
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Old 08-12-05, 02:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Since everyone's now had the chance to jump all over my "anti-clipless" stance, let me list the reasons why I HATE clipless:
Let me play devil's advocate here, since I resisted going clipless for a long time. NOTE: I am not trying to change your mind, I'm just using your post as a starting point because you had a comprehensive list of arguments very similar to mine.

1. I want to be able to bike in whatever shoes I have on

Ditto. For work I often need to wear boots, and I was reluctant to cycle in shoes and drag boots around. Eventually I decided to get pedals with a platform on one side: best of both worlds.

2. I don't climb, don't spin, and don't race
3. I live in an alluvial plain where the highest "hill" is less than fifty feet


Can't argue with that. I do spin, and find it makes long rides a lot easier.

4. I'd rather get off the bike quickly in an unforseen emergency stop

That was a big worry for me, and still is. I feel I have traded more secure footing when pedalling with less security in an emergency. Keep in mind that you don't have to clip-in every minute you ride- when I'm in heavy stop-and-go traffic I don't bother to clip in.

5. I'm "duckfooted" by nature & my feet aren't comfortable parallel to the frame
6. My hybrid bike has wide chainstays and my feet hit if parallel to the frame


You can adjust the cleats to any angle you find comfortable.

7. The clipless shoes I tried weren't wide enough for my feet
8. The clipless shoes I tried had rigid soles that I couldn't walk comfortably in
9. The clipless shoes I tried had cleats that scarred up the floors


I hear you on the width issue! Who are these shoes made for? I settled for shoes that didn't actively hurt and are just a bit too long, but for my next pair I will need to do a lot of shopping to find a wide shoe.

I balance footwear with my needs for that trip. A lot of cycling, not much walking? Bike shoes with cleats. A little cycling, a lot of walking? Normal shoes or boots. Want both? Bike shoes, and carry a pair of sandals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
I will say, though, that just because you love them doesn't make them the right choice for everyone.
And its important to note that no one choice will be right for everyone. I felt I needed more efficiency to be able to go farther, faster, with less effort. A few weeks into the clipless life, I really feel I have that. And let me tell you, after a long day when I have a 30min. ride home with a lot of equipment, I want the ride to be as easy as possible!
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Old 08-12-05, 08:44 PM   #36
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Hi Pat!

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate your views. I appreciate the fact that being clipped to the bike is more efficient - no possible argument there. Racers have clipped themselves to their pedals by straps or other means for over a hundred years. They weren't being "trendy" for sure!

Having said that, I must focus once again on my own personal priorities in bicycling:

1. Safety
2. Comfort
3. Fun

Notice that efficiency didn't even make my list. I ride for fitness, and when I do, efficiency isn't important either. In fact, inverse efficiency might be better . I'm willing to trade all kinds of efficiency for safety. Since it is likely that I'd fall (at least once, possibly more) with clipless, there's absolutely no incentive for me to even try.

In fact, though, I have tried (briefly). When I resumed cycling after a 30 year hiatus this past January, the first bike I bought had clipless pedals on it. I went to the LBS, and they sold me a pair of Specialized shoes that must have been made for someone with a 13aaaa sized foot. They said the shoes would mutate to fit my feet.

After I managed to get clipped in (in my driveway), I promptly caught my front tire in a seam between two of the concrete slabs, and went down gracelessly. My wife (ever the thoughtful one), commented about what might happen to me if that scenario occured in traffic. Got me thinking...

Since I bike on really badly cracked/rutted/potholed pavement and bike paths, I opted to get some platform pedals and try those for the first few weeks. I've never looked back. In my 140+ miles per week of cycling, I've had at least two near-falls that would have been either bad falls or falls into traffic (possibly fatal) if I'd been clipped to my pedals. Being able to put my foot down without any delay saved the situation.

For others, clipless may make perfect sense. For me, it just isn't an issue.

Thanks again for the reply - I really enjoyed your thoughts!
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Old 08-12-05, 09:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Hi Pat!

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate your views.
You're welcome, and I am happy you took in the spirit it was intended. I think between the two of us our posts explore both sides of the clipless argument pretty well - hopefully well enough to help others reach a decision.
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Old 08-13-05, 06:10 AM   #38
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Recently there was a death in NYC, I think her name was Liz Padilla, it was reported that she could not unclip fast enough to get out of harm's way after she fell. Although I wonder how they knew that.

And that has certainly made me more aware of that danger, I usually unclip in situations which I judge to be more hazardous than usual, except I have egg beaters, the clip in so easily that it is more difficult to stay deliberately unclipped than to clip in, so I have to concentrate on staying unclipped, not good of course.
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Old 08-13-05, 08:38 AM   #39
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I think for casual riding or commutting, clips with loose straps are still the best choice.

1. low cost (this is important for some of us)
2. Ease of entry and exit (of course this is negated if you tighten the straps)
3. Allow wide choice of shoes (I often use tennis shoes for short trips)
4. A large amount of float (more so than clipless in my opinion, negated with tightened straps)
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Old 08-13-05, 07:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabloink
I think for casual riding or commutting, clips with loose straps are still the best choice...Ease of entry and exit (of course this is negated if you tighten the straps)
Pedal egress is also limited if you wear tennis shoes or any other shoe with a textured sole. I found this out the hard way when I rode with running shoes with "rat-trap" pedals and loose straps. Even though the straps were loose, my shoe soles hung on the pedals and I fell. Keep this in mind for safety!
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Old 08-13-05, 08:21 PM   #41
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The best of all possible worlds (well, in my opinion) Shimano SPD sandals. Walkable, ridable, comfortable all day. Wear heavy socks and you can wear them into late fall or even winter.
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Old 08-13-05, 10:15 PM   #42
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i love it!
go for it! you never know unitl you try
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Old 08-13-05, 10:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
I actually know how to cut & paste with my keyboard...
me too!

tags are handy, too...

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Old 08-14-05, 08:03 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackberry
The best of all possible worlds (well, in my opinion) Shimano SPD sandals. Walkable, ridable, comfortable all day. Wear heavy socks and you can wear them into late fall or even winter.
Yeah, socks and sandals! Hey, it was good enough for the Romans.
Robert

Last edited by cooker; 08-14-05 at 08:06 PM. Reason: correction
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