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Old 08-13-02, 12:31 PM   #1
Alexey
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Climate change. Will a personal car be outlawed? When?

Seventy per sent of the CNN poll participants think that the global warming is the reason of the catastrophic floods in Europe.

The best bicycle trail in the world - the beautiful Danube Cycle Path is damaged by floods (I hope only damaged, but I fear the worst).

Since the car is the major contributor of the environmental damage, will people ever try to do something about it? Will they try to limit the weight of a car or will they outlaw it for most uses?

I know that in Greece some steps taken in this direction. On the even days only the cars with the number, which ends on an even figure, could drive. On an odd day of the month - cars with the last odd number. I would say - too little too late.

What would be done? If anything. What is the guess? Or will it continue with the same tempo and billions new cars will be just joining the frenzy?
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Old 08-13-02, 01:07 PM   #2
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I think that in the US, it will largely be a matter of "You'll take my car when you pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead fingers." But I have the feeling that the time isn't distant when the smoggiest cities will bar their streets to car traffic: and that, inside the city, people will be required to use public transit, walk or bike. Or possibly at least scooters or electric carts.

At the moment it isn't a serious consideration, because nobody has done it yet. But as soon as one city gives it a successful try, I bet we will see many more considering it.
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Old 08-13-02, 01:51 PM   #3
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Seventy per sent of the CNN poll participants think that the global warming is the reason of the catastrophic floods in Europe.
CNN poll participants said it, so it must be! Conversely, I'll bet that same 70% think bicycling is a menace and a hazard. Personally, I think a bunch of rain caused the flooding.

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Since the car is the major contributor of the environmental damage
Is it? Worse than say... industry?

Motorized vehicles are going nowhere, at least in the U.S. Our infrastructure is based on the use of motorized vehicles. Also,we're a nation predominately composed of convenience-oriented fat asses who wheeze on their walk to the TV to change the station. We need cars, man!
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Old 08-13-02, 02:02 PM   #4
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Originally posted by Bikes-N-Drums

Also,we're a nation predominately composed of convenience-oriented fat asses who wheeze on their walk to the TV to change the station. We need cars, man!
Sadly enough, we use the remote control, so we don't have to walk to the TV to change the station.
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Old 08-13-02, 02:07 PM   #5
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actually, the cattle industry is arguably the number one cause of global warming, due to cattle's wastes and the deforestation and resources needed to keep the industry going.

on a side note, has anyone given thought to what electric cars will do to bicycling? If I am riding here in the city, and I can't hear a car coming up beside me, that's dangerous. And since electric cars will be very quiet or completely silent, it puts us in more hazard, i think.

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Old 08-13-02, 02:52 PM   #6
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Originally posted by Bikes-N-Drums

Personally, I think a bunch of rain caused the flooding.
This is one of the single most intelligent things I have
read here on BF. Seriously, no sh*t.
lets see the asian brown cloud is causing LOWER temps
(what happened to global warming?) which is causing
drought.
The hole in the ozone layer is causing Global warming
which is causing EL NINO which causes droughts and floods.
I'm sorry, I agree to some extent we are messing things
up here, but I think when it comes to weather phenomenom,
we don't have a clue, but hey its a nice theory.

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Old 08-13-02, 03:46 PM   #7
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To go and try and change the way that we live by limiting how much we can drive is going to do nothing. Why don't we go with some thing like make cars that have fuel cells cheaper or make the min MPG 30- 40 on all cars and make sure that from a point on that the cars we do drive are bettter. When i was looking for a car this past weekend(just tuned 16 , I saw that the only car that i would really like to drive is the new honda's they have cars that have a MPG of 35 - 50. Then i got thinking. what do i even need a car for. So on the way out, i looked at the what the average mpg was on the other cars, it was in the low 20's!!!!!

sure cars do not play as big of a roll as the south american forests being cut down but it is the best way to change with out really having to change any thing of our daily lives.

Look, Don't get me wronge. As an american i see that we are not very open to change. That is why i say this. For all i care we should all use the bus if we need to and then have a bike high way, and lain that is filled with the trash for the cars, just liek we bikers have it.

I think that the real problem is that no one wants to give any thing up to help out a "time" that they will not ever live in. I tryed to tell one of my teachers one this and you know what he told me. . . "thats nice if we all live in a nice flowery county with nonsubstanderd people while they sat and drink herbal tea."

For any thing to happen you will first have to change the mind of the normal person. We bikers are a bunch of special people that care. Most of us here are smarter than the average. (soryr if i come of ranting) Just my $0.02

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Old 08-13-02, 03:56 PM   #8
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Well we have the technology for hydrogen powered cars. Fuel would be cheaper than ever, more efficient and cleaner. Its just the oil companies don't won't this so they hold back these things or else they would be out of business. Their usual reply to this subject is that "We can not properly house hydrogen in a car", which is BS since we can send a shuttle to space sitting on top of a literal hydrogen bomb. I would like to see this used in the future but....ya know.
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Old 08-13-02, 04:28 PM   #9
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I'm old enough to remember the Ice Age scares of the 70s. And that was only less than 30 years ago.

How could Global Warming, which became the scare du jour beginning in the early 80s, supersede the Ice Age so quickly?

Probably because 70% of respondents will believe anything the papers say.
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Old 08-13-02, 04:31 PM   #10
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Originally posted by kewlrunningz
Well we have the technology for hydrogen powered cars. Fuel would be cheaper than ever, more efficient and cleaner. ...
Do you have any idea what the cost would be to develop the infrastructure for safe, efficient delivery of hydrogen gas?

It's not enough -- not nearly enough -- for there to be only the means to consume it (the engine).

And why on earth would oil companies "go out of business" when presented with an option to delivery a fuel, as they do now, but only of a different sort?
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Old 08-13-02, 04:40 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Andy Dreisch
And why on earth would oil companies "go out of business" when presented with an option to delivery a fuel, as they do now, but only of a different sort?
Because their entire committed capital is sunk into equipment, training, buildings, and research into the mining, production, and refinement of oil. Sure, they could switch over to hydrogen. Just like tobacco farmers could switch to farming paw paws. But the expense of the conversion would damage the companies' assets considerably...plus, they would face new competition as other companies tried to get in on the ground floor of hydrogen production.

BTW, just for the record, I don't know that I believe that a practical hydrogen-powered car is in actual existence, outside of conspiracy theorist websites.
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Old 08-13-02, 04:50 PM   #12
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Originally posted by Inkwolf
Because their entire committed capital is sunk into equipment, training, buildings, and research into the mining, production, and refinement of oil. Sure, they could switch over to hydrogen. Just like tobacco farmers could switch to farming paw paws. But the expense of the conversion would damage the companies' assets considerably...plus, they would face new competition as other companies tried to get in on the ground floor of hydrogen production.
Except for the "paw paws" thing, I agree. They'd (the oil companies) would either change or die. The implicit assumption in the original post was that oil companies would somehow block the introduction of H-gas by some evil means. This is preposterous in my view. (As for "paw paws": there is a closer alignment between the storage, distribution, delivery, and sale of H-gas and fossil fuels than there is between tobacco and "paw paws", wouldn't you agree?)

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with you on the current status of an H-gas automobile.
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Old 08-13-02, 04:52 PM   #13
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For those looking for more than 30 mpg and don't want a hybrid the Volkswagon TDI (turbo diesel) gets 50 mpg. I have two friends that have them (one Jetta and one Golf) and they are both getting 50+ on the highway. The motors are plenty zippy and you can actually fit 4 adults in them with their stuff...
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Old 08-13-02, 04:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Dreisch

As for "paw paws": there is a closer alignment between the storage, distribution, delivery, and sale of H-gas and fossil fuels than there is between tobacco and "paw paws", wouldn't you agree?
To be honest, I wouldn't know. I've been a northerner all my life and have never seen an actual paw paw.
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Old 08-13-02, 05:04 PM   #15
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Originally posted by Inkwolf
To be honest, I wouldn't know. I've been a northerner all my life and have never seen an actual paw paw.
Funny, yes. I wondered what a paw paw was, too !! Maybe it's a throwback to Bonanza (You know, Hoss and "Gee, Paw.")
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Old 08-13-02, 05:10 PM   #16
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It's a kind of fruit they grow in the south. (The closest I've gotten is a song we used to sing when I was a kid about "pickin' up paw paws, put 'em in my pocket'")

I once read an article in a gardening magazine suggesting that the tobacco growers could switch to growing paw paws...most of the country don't know what they are at the moment, but hey--20 years ago, who had ever heard of kiwi fruit?
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Old 08-13-02, 05:59 PM   #17
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Paw Paw is an overgrown Papaya.
same basic fruit only alot bigger.
real popular in South Africa,
Personally I think they stink (literally), I
mean they really HONK.

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Old 08-13-02, 06:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redhed
Sadly enough, we use the remote control, so we don't have to walk to the TV to change the station.
Sometimes, though, even my finger gets tired.
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Old 08-13-02, 08:24 PM   #19
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I would like to weigh in on this climate change issue.

It's a fact that the ice caps are melting at an accelerated rate. Ocean levels have risen steadily. El Nino (caused by a massive area of warmer water in the Pacific Ocean) is beginning to occur more frequently than ever before in recorded history.

While I can't prove any of this is due to carbon dioxide emissions,
I wouldn't laugh it off too quickly.

After 9-11, airline service dropped off suddenly. Everyone remembers that. During that period of decreased airline flights,
temperatures were more severe: colder at night and warmer in the day. Why? It is postulated that jet trails cause an increase in cirrus cloud formation, which in turn is responsible for moderating temperatures to be less cold at night and less hot during the day. The difference is estimated at just a few degrees farenheit, but definitely occurring at the same time as the decreased plane flights.

We have the power to alter the weather. We don't know what this will mean.

Remember the historical lesson of the Dust Bowl. Cyclical drought, combined with improper soil conservation techniques, produced dust storms during the 1930's that were unparalleled.
Some storms blanketed cities as far east as New York City.

The lesson is that we sometimes act for short-term gains without fully understanding the possible adverse effects.

http://www.ptsi.net/user/museum/dustbowl.html

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...D(COLLID+fsa))

http://www.drought.unl.edu/whatis/dustbowl.htm#intro
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Old 08-13-02, 08:57 PM   #20
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LBM, metereoligists have troubles predicting weather 4 days out. For every cause of presumed warming/cooling, you can find a countervailing influence if you worry hard enough. Where exactly were temperatures colder/warmer, and assuming there is a real trend and not a statistical blip, can this be treated in isolation: can we point to the lack of contrails and claim a correlation? Given a data series that's exactly how old? A few months?

How has cooling entered the picture, as in your example? This is a recent phonomenon. Could it possibly be that the global warming business needs new ammunition given the relative lack of warmness of late?

Wasn't it less than 20 years between gloomy predictions of an impending Ice Age and the beginnings of the new worry: global warming? Are we changing back to an impending Ice Age any time soon? My bet is: yes!!!

Yes, humans can affect their environment. But people have been wrong time and time again about the End of the Earth.
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Old 08-13-02, 10:28 PM   #21
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I don't think personal cars will ever be outlawed but I do think it is possible to control their use. Their use can be controlled through the use of tolls, the use of selective number plates e.g Mexico City (two colours of number plates, one for even days and on for odd days of the month) also Athens I think uses a similar policy (but people get around this by having two sets of plates). I know for a fact that in Singapore the government tries to limit the usage of cars through a number of ways. They try to provide at least one alternative means of public transport; be that public buses, mass rapid transport system and a light rail system. The government also attempts to control or reduce the amount of traffic that clogs the CBD (central business district) by using an electronic road pricing system, (this system electronically deducts a fee for entering a restricted area). The government also implements a fee called the COE (certificate of entitlement) this fee raises the price of your cars by about 30,000 Singapore dollars thus cars normally cost around 100,000 Singapore dollars, also the COE is only valid for a period of 5 or 6 years. When this period is over, people are encouraged to purchase a new vehicle or pay 5,000 Singapore a year to keep their car on the road. These measures manage to keep traffic down to a reasonable level compared with other cities in the world of similar size.

I think that cars/trucks/motorbikes are such an integral and essential part of our lives; it would be impossible to remove them. To put it in the terms of economics they have gone from a luxury good to an essential good. Cars that produce less emissions and that have more miles to the gallon are the answer to our problems. We won't get ride of cars but we can reduce the amount emissions they produce.

My second point is that cars are not the main source green house gases. Methane is the biggest greenhouse gas; methane is produced by cows, the paddy fields that feed Asia, rubbish dumps, sewerage facilities and grain farms. Anything that involves organic waste produces methane even humans directly contribute to the green house affect every time we fart. The pollution situation is not as simple as the media portrays it to be. Their are a number of interlinking factors that need to be tackled to reduce pollution. Carbon dioxide emissions and methane emissions need to be reduced that is the simple fact. The only way this can be done is by reducing "global" emission’s, so this includes the good old US of A. Well I better shut up before I start getting all emotional about "Kyoto"

Just my final point, the oil companies would not go out of business if people stopped by gasoline for their cars. Crude oil is refined into over 300 parts or something. All plastics are made up of components from crude oil, ExxonMobil has had record profits for the last two years, this isn't because people have been consuming more gasoline or petrol it is because they have been selling more of the other components of crude oil, for example tar and propane. The money is made from other oil products and chemicals derived from crude oil.

Well I hope people didn't mind my little rant, i was just trying to clear a few issues up.
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Old 08-13-02, 10:33 PM   #22
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A very informative post. Thanks.

CHEERS.

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Old 08-13-02, 10:42 PM   #23
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The total power of all the car engines exceed times the total power of all the electro generators on the global scale. So the car is the major source of environmental damage.

The radical solutions usually do not work. I would suggest a more practical way.

There is no need to antagonize with the oil companies. More than that the cost of gasoline should be times higher than now. Additional environmental taxes should be levied on every gallon of gas sold.

When I was in the USA this June I noticed that petrol is dirt cheap. Like 2 bucks per gallon. The same price is here in Ukraine, though average income is much lower here than in the USA.

In Europe it is 4 bucks per gallon. But the reasonable price should be no less than 10 per gallon. On this tax new bicycle trails could be build, new research in cycling technologies could be conducted, bikes for elderly people arranged, etc.
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Old 08-13-02, 10:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alexey
The total power of all the car engines exceed times the total power of all the electro generators on the global scale.
I agree with this but not with this
Quote:
So the car is the major source of environmental damage
I don't agree with this because even though the amount of emmisions are huge from both car engines and from electron generators the fact of the matter is that we produce more methane than both of those combind. I am going to try to dig up some figures on this, but just think about this example. In China thier are approx. 1,300 million people. If only say 1/3 of those own a car and you generate power for all the people right. That produces X emissions. But in order to feed these people china produces rice which is the staple food, Thus china must produce at least engough rice to feed thier own population (at least 650million kg a day if the average person eats .5kg of rice a day), and they also export a lot of rice, so already china produces more methane than CO2 and then if you take into account the amount of rubbish that these people generate thats thats aleast another 650 million kg of waste. And then thier is the livestock that produces methane and then their is the 1,300 million people farting each day. Just have a little think about that one. I hope that is easy to understand.
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Old 08-14-02, 12:31 AM   #25
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Not to mention the other 5,200,000,000 other people on the planet. That's a lot of farts.


CHEERS.

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