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  1. #26
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    Expect date moved from Nov 2005 to January 2006 over the last two weeks. Don't guess I'll be getting this toy for my birthday this year.

    d.tipton

  2. #27
    Newbie erhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tippy
    I think the cadence sensor provides just cadence (RPM) data not speed. You don't need circumference info to calculate cadence (RPM). I think the cadence sensor is for your crank arms anyway ... that way you'll know the cadence you are doing to produce the the speed. The GPS receiver will give you your speed info.

    d.tipton
    I was actually trying to say that the speed sensor comes only with the cadence kit. That's what I understand when I read this on the specs page :

    Speed/cadence: Self-calibrating wireless sensor mounts to bike’s rear chain stay. Wheel magnet mounts to rear wheel for speed; cadence magnet attaches to crank arm.

  3. #28
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckliondog
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus
    Does anyone know if this Garmin unit will synch with Macs?
    Thanks.
    I read that it won't, which means somebody is going to get hurt. Here I am, ready to pay a ridiculous amount for a cyclocomputer that is supposed to be the be all and end all, but it won't work for my computer. How hard can it be?
    I use Magellan, not Garmin, but they have the same limitation. Magellan does not provide cable or software for Mac users either, but they do say this in the manual:

    "For information on a cable or software that may meet your requirements, visit GPSy at http://www.gpsy.com. on the internet."

    That might apply to Garmin users as well. I have no idea how well GPSy solutions work, as I use a PC.

    --J
    To err is human. To moo is bovine.

    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


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  4. #29
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    Forgive me but I am just getting up to speed on the whole GPS thing. This site https://www.megagps.com/index.asp has done a lot to get me going. I too was sold on the Edge 305 however for a similar amount of money the Garmin GPS V will talk to you and compute turn by turn routes between addresses like 'real' GPS units in cars do. There is something to be said for a stand alone cycle computer, HRM and GPS. There may be small amounts of overlap of functions but mostly there is a significant improvement in performance when the unit is optimized for the task. I have extremely poor vision and even if I could see the GPS screen I cannot read street signs unless I literally ride right under it an look up. A talking GPS would eliminate a lot of that to say nothing of night trips! If the Edge units computed routes and talked I'd be on them in a hearbeat earlier comments notwithstanding but they don't so...

    H

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan828
    Which model are you using? I think with the eTrex models, only the ones with the color screens will do automatic routing. I use my (non-color) Vista with a bluetooth adapter and a PDA for in car navigation, but haven't really needed it for riding.
    I have the Etrek Legend and it does do automatic routing but I prefer not to use this feature because it tends to choose fast highways.

    I create "way points" on the computer screne marking each turn when creating a route. I save this route to my GPS and I'm done.

    In reality, you really don't need this and a cheap used copy of MS Streets and trips will give you all the coordinate you need to type into the GPS and do the same thing.

  6. #31
    Si Senior dbg's Avatar
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    I use the sportrak pro (Magellan). And I think the best flexibility for defining routes and waypoints comes from using the company specific mapping SW. But you don't HAVE to. The Delorme package works OK with my GPS, but I MUCH prefer using the Magellan mapping SW.

  7. #32
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    I was thinking of what really need to be improved on the Garmin GPS. Don't misunderstand, I love my GPS but there is room for improvement. These are my complaints.

    1. Street name too small -- The small screen does NOT allow you to use more than 7 or 10 characters. This is too small and makes it difficult to read because the name is truncated! I know for a fact, more characters can be used but the sofware will have to move other objects around. The street name is critical for the cyclist who is using this product to navagate and it makes it much easier to see Main Boulevard instead of Main Bo!

    2. Routes list only numbers! -- I could not believe how Garmin does not list the name of the street when you're following a route?? When I create a route with street names, they don't pop up until you're really close to the destination! The upcoming street name should ALWAYS appear on the unit not some abreaviated number! Incredible.

    3. Map Software incorrect --- I've discovered at least two errors in the map software so I suspect there may be countless. In one case, the map software pointed me to a train station that was not operational in nearly 70 years! This wouldn't be so bad but it's automapping feature tends to choose the interstate!
    Last edited by Dahon.Steve; 10-14-05 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #33
    Si Senior dbg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
    I was thinking of what really need to be improved on the Garmin GPS. Don't misunderstand, I love my GPS but there is room for improvement. These are my complaints.

    1. Street name too small -- The small screen does NOT allow you to use more than 7 or 10 characters. This is too small and makes it difficult to read because the name is truncated! I know for a fact, more characters can be used but the sofware will have to move other objects around. The street name is critical for the cyclist who is using this product to navagate and it makes it much easier to see Main Boulevard instead of Main Bo!

    2. Routes list only numbers! -- I could not believe how Garmin does not list the name of the street when you're following a route?? When I create a route with names, those names don't pop up until you're really close to the destination! The upcoming route should ALWAYS appear on the unit not some abreaviated number! Incredible.

    3. Map Software incorrect --- I've discovered at least two errors in the map software so I suspect there may be countless. In one case, the map software pointed me to a train station that was not operational in nearly 70 years! This wouldn't be so bad but it's automapping feature tends to choose the interstate!

    I've kept my older Magellen Sportrak Pro partly because it has a bigger display than their newer models (Explorist). But I don't have memory card support, don't have USB, and it's not color. Uploading region detail can take 20+ min, but uploading waypoints and routes is fast.

    My waypoints are displayed as the names I define whenever they pop onto the current map. I can only have 30 waypoints per highlighted route. But I name each waypoint (decision point) with street and direction (if I need to go left on maple, I call the waypoint "Lmaple"). So I may lose the route highlight but the waypoints still tell me what to do.

    Map software error is the big problem with all navigation units. I researched in-vehicle add-on GPS units for my car. Every one had reviewers complaining of map errors. I eventually chose the Tomtom300 and love it. I understand there are basically two outfits collecting and updating maps, and vendors use one or the other. I think they are Navtech and Tele-atlas. They probably leap-frog each other with updates so I'm not sure you can pick the best one. Tomtom uses Tele-atlas, others (including my brother's built-in nav device) use Navtech. I noticed my recent upgrade of Magellan mapping SW fixed several errors I had noted on the previous package.

  9. #34
    Si Senior dbg's Avatar
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    I am attending a post bike-tour party tomorrow (drink beer, swap stories and review hundreds of pictures on somebody's 60" monitor). The party host (neighbor and friend) uses a Garmin (I use a Magellan). We plan to set up a little technology demo showcasing both our units side-by-side. We'll show how routes and waypoints are defined and loaded, and the various device display features. It will be a friendly competition since the trip coordinator (annual trip across Wisconsin following a different route every year) is thinking about offering maps in GPS waypoint format next year as well as paper. We each would presumably like to convince him to use our chosen product line. But I don't care either way. I'm interested in the little quirks and shortcomings of each one. I think whichever the route-coordinator choses we both will keep our own and support others who may choose either.

  10. #35
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    [QUOTE=dbgMy waypoints are displayed as the names I define whenever they pop onto the current map. I can only have 30 waypoints per highlighted route. But I name each waypoint (decision point) with street and direction (if I need to go left on maple, I call the waypoint "Lmaple"). So I may lose the route highlight but the waypoints still tell me what to do.

    Map software error is the big problem with all navigation units. I researched in-vehicle add-on GPS units for my car. Every one had reviewers complaining of map errors. I eventually chose the Tomtom300 and love it. I understand there are basically two outfits collecting and updating maps, and vendors use one or the other. I think they are Navtech and Tele-atlas. They probably leap-frog each other with updates so I'm not sure you can pick the best one. Tomtom uses Tele-atlas, others (including my brother's built-in nav device) use Navtech. I noticed my recent upgrade of Magellan mapping SW fixed several errors I had noted on the previous package.[/QUOTE]

    Good post.

    I didn't think about using "LMaple" but here's what I use. I number the routes because it gives me an idea of how many more points I'm at till the end. So my way points look like this. (1-Main Street, 2-Wayne Street, 3-Grant Street)

    This way if I have 35 way points, I automatically know how many points on the route I have to travel till the very end. Unfortuantely, the software tends NOT to show the name of the street until I'm close to reaching it. My next GPS will have to show the street of my next street location on screne all the time instead of some number. I'm thinking of using your technique of putting an L or R next to each street like this. (1-LMain Street, 2-RWayne Street, 3-LGrant Street)

    I too agree with all the errors in GPS's today. In fact, I don't know how the motorist who is paying $700-$1200 USD for an onboard GPS can handle all the mistakes. Traveling at 65mph and using a GPS could cause you to crash or get lost especially if you have to make a fast left, right, left because the GPS does not move the pointer in a split second.

    You're right about the two outfits who make all the maps. The same error in Mapquest (Garmin) was the same exact error in Microsoft Streets and Trip.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by erhan
    I was actually trying to say that the speed sensor comes only with the cadence kit. That's what I understand when I read this on the specs page :
    I went to the Garmin website and posted the question there. No response yet.
    I can see how you could set up the cadence/speed sensor to read speed, however I can't see why you would want to know "this" speed when you have a perfectly good GPS receiver that can give you speed.
    In cadence mode, you would have both cadence (from the magnet sensor) and speed (from the gps receiver) available. In speed mode, you would have two versions of speed (mag pickup and gps).

    Still waiting on answer from Garmin.

    d.tipton

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tippy
    I went to the Garmin website and posted the question there. No response yet.
    I can see how you could set up the cadence/speed sensor to read speed, however I can't see why you would want to know "this" speed when you have a perfectly good GPS receiver that can give you speed.
    In cadence mode, you would have both cadence (from the magnet sensor) and speed (from the gps receiver) available. In speed mode, you would have two versions of speed (mag pickup and gps).

    Still waiting on answer from Garmin.

    d.tipton

    Is that even workable? I mean you'd have to have all your gearing info entered into the computer along with a way to sense what gear you were in in order to estimate speed from cadence alone.

  13. #38
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    How good is the battery life with any of these GPS units?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomM
    How good is the battery life with any of these GPS units?
    I just tested my Garmin 60CS with some new rechargables. It came in right at 20 hours, just like the specs say.


    Rich Owings
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    www.GPStracklog.com

    "We were desert mystics, my friends and I, poring over our maps as others do their holy books." - Edward Abbey

  15. #40
    Si Senior dbg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomM
    How good is the battery life with any of these GPS units?
    I supposedly get 14 hrs on 2 AA. In practice I find I get at least that -- usually 2 full riding days on one battery set.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tippy
    I went to the Garmin website and posted the question there. No response yet.
    I can see how you could set up the cadence/speed sensor to read speed, however I can't see why you would want to know "this" speed when you have a perfectly good GPS receiver that can give you speed.
    In cadence mode, you would have both cadence (from the magnet sensor) and speed (from the gps receiver) available. In speed mode, you would have two versions of speed (mag pickup and gps).

    Still waiting on answer from Garmin.

    d.tipton
    Quote Originally Posted by dan828
    Is that even workable? I mean you'd have to have all your gearing info entered into the computer along with a way to sense what gear you were in in order to estimate speed from cadence alone.
    No. To get speed ... you need time and distance. Timing is easy. Distance is the circumference of the wheel taking into account where the magnet is from the axis. This is typically how most cycle computers "calculate" speed.

    I received an email from a Garmin rep concerning the Edge305 capabilities. He said the ONLY way the Edge305 presents speed data is via the GPS receiver not a magnetic on the wheel. I responded by pointing out that the specs web page for the 305 says differently and suggested someone at Garmin edit the page to reflect the info he just provided to me.

    d.tipton

  17. #42
    Curmudgeon Wil Davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tippy
    …snip

    Distance is the circumference of the wheel taking into account where the magnet is from the axis. This is typically how most cycle computers "calculate" speed.

    …snip
    Er, um - I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here - I would have thought that the only thing which changes the distance calculated by the cycle computer is the circumference of the wheel. The postition of the magnet has nothing to do with the circumference of the wheel, or with the number of revolutions the wheel makes in a mile. The speed at which the magnet passes the sensing probe will change with the distance the magnet is set on the radius of the wheel, and this might alter the signal which the sensor detects, but the number of revolutions per mile will not change…

    - Wil

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wil Davis
    Er, um - I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here - I would have thought that the only thing which changes the distance calculated by the cycle computer is the circumference of the wheel. The postition of the magnet has nothing to do with the circumference of the wheel, or with the number of revolutions the wheel makes in a mile. The speed at which the magnet passes the sensing probe will change with the distance the magnet is set on the radius of the wheel, and this might alter the signal which the sensor detects, but the number of revolutions per mile will not change…

    - Wil
    I see what your saying. The only cycle computer I ever had with a speedo feature had a setting for wheel size and then the instructions said to place the magnetic a specified distance from the axle. But what your saying (and I understand too) that all parts of the wheel are moving at the same RPM so regardless of where the pickup was, the timing between pulses would be the same (at a given wheel speed).

    The only possible explanation of specific magnet placement would be (as you said) if the sensor measured the pulse width to determine speed (instead of counting the number of pulses over a period of time). Then the magnet placement would be more critical because the magnetic travels at different speeds depending on where it's mounted.

    d.tipton

  19. #44
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    The only reason that placement of the magnet is critical is because it must pass very close to the sensor which will be mounted either on the chainstay or seatstay. Likewise the cadence magnets position on the crankarm must be precisely located so as to pass as close to the cadence sensor as possible. All computers that measure speed do so with a magnet and sensor and those that add cadence must have two magnets and sensors, one for speed and another for cadence. High end computers can extapolate gear ratio's from the cadence and speed sensors together but cannot extrapolate speed from cadence. Using the GPS to calculate speed adds a new twist and I am not certain that it is an improvement, I can imagine certain kinds of riding and locations that would throw a GPS trying to deduce ones speed that would not faze a standard magnet sensor at all. I doubt very much however that the Edge will rely soley on the GPS to provide speed data. I could certainly be wrong of course but IMO it would be one more reason to think about a more general purpose GPS optimized for that task and a decent cyclecomputer likewise appointed.

    H

  20. #45
    Just a student norsehabanero's Avatar
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    national geographic makes a good software as well it works good for riding then downloading you trip it also shows elevation very cool,
    works well with a garmin legend love it

  21. #46
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomM
    How good is the battery life with any of these GPS units?
    That's the biggest drawback. I seem to remember Magellan claims 14 hours for the Meridian Color. I use rechargeable NiMHs, so if I get 12 hours, I consider myself lucky. I use it for bike and kayak touring, and it's fairly annoying to have barely enough juice for two touring days (if the unit is switched off during longer breaks). Bike tours are not that big a problem, there's usually electricity available at the end of the day. But paddle tours are another thing completely. My next gadget will likely be a solar panel battery charger. Maybe I should start a new thread about those and see what people are using...

    --J
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    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


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  22. #47
    Senior Member 240GL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomM
    How good is the battery life with any of these GPS units?
    I can usually get 20 hours out of the two AA batteries in my 60CS. But it will vary, depending on a few factors:
    - If I stand still and use the magnetic compass a lot, it drains the batteries.
    - If I have to use the display backlight, likewise.
    - If I use the (Gilsson) external active antenna, it drains the batteries a bit (but not significally).
    I normally use rechargeable 2300 mAh NiMhs, a step up from my old 1800 mAh ones.
    As long as you bring a spare set you'll be okay, the unit just picks up where it left atfter a battery change. (Just remember to recalibrate the magnetic compass on the S-models.) Units with unreplaceable batteries are unsuited for my kind of use, which involves kayaking/biking/trekking for days away from any AC outlets.

    Erling.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by norsehabanero
    national geographic makes a good software as well it works good for riding then downloading you trip it also shows elevation very cool,
    works well with a garmin legend love it
    I highly recommend TopoFusion software. It was created by bikers, has an extensive free demo mode, and gives you access to aerial photos and maps of the entire US. One thing National Geographic TOPO does better though, and that is creating good quality printed maps.

    Rich Owings
    www.MakeYourOwnMaps.com
    www.GPStracklog.com

    "We were desert mystics, my friends and I, poring over our maps as others do their holy books." - Edward Abbey

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Owings
    I highly recommend TopoFusion software. It was created by bikers, has an extensive free demo mode, and gives you access to aerial photos and maps of the entire US. One thing National Geographic TOPO does better though, and that is creating good quality printed maps.

    Rich Owings
    www.MakeYourOwnMaps.com
    www.GPStracklog.com

    "We were desert mystics, my friends and I, poring over our maps as others do their holy books." - Edward Abbey
    Rich:

    Really interesting suff. I'm getting your book but it seems like your're information is only good for those out in the midwest where there a few roads or hiking in the grand canyon.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
    Rich:

    Really interesting suff. I'm getting your book but it seems like your're information is only good for those out in the midwest where there a few roads or hiking in the grand canyon.
    Thanks Steve, but I'm not sure what you mean. My book does focus somewhat on backcountry use, so it's more useful for mountain bikers, if that's what you mean.

    Rich Owings
    www.MakeYourOwnMaps.com
    www.GPStracklog.com

    "We were desert mystics, my friends and I, poring over our maps as others do their holy books." - Edward Abbey

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