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Found Bike Ethics Question

Old 12-18-05, 02:23 PM
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Found Bike Ethics Question

Alright, I didn't know exactly where to post this, so I will post here, since you all find bikes all the time--please bear with me, or send me to the appropriate forum.

Last night, biking home on my commute, I come across a frame about 6 feet behind a van on the "tree strip" next to the sidewalk. I go to check it out (cause I'm looking to build a fixie and people leave decent bikes lying around in my neighborhood), and immediately notice it's a very nice alu. road frame kitted out with top-end Shimano, only it's torn in half. Looks like somebody hit it on an overhang or garage while it was on a car's roof rack. I notice the van is running. I look in, nobody's home in the driver side. So I start to pick the bike up, and this guy gets out. I ask, "is this your bike?" he says, "yeah but it's broke." I say "yeah, it's pretty broken, alright," and I ask--"do you want it back"--he says, "no, you keep it, you keep it."

Something struck me as odd about this--the fact that he was maybe a bit sketchy and in a late model van, and so willing to give it away. So, the question is, what is my ethical duty, here? Take the guy for granted that this is his bike and he is ignorant of the value of the parts, consider the bike a gift, and strip it? Try and find out if it was stolen or a result of an accident? (the tear pattern would indicate not accident--handlebars and wheels are fine) Anyone know how to check for stolen bikes? I don't know if the cops will give me specific info on lost bikes, and it could have been from any number of jurisdictions around here. I already checked the national bike registry--nothing recent fits it--no DC, MD, or VA registration # on the bike. Post up in road bikes here, and craig's list? I don't really know what else to do.

The last thing I want is bad karma hunting me down on a bike, especially a road bike. What say you, intrepid fellow travellers?
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Old 12-18-05, 03:03 PM
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Strange story, especially the part about "people leaving decent bikes lying around in your neighborhood," and since you want to build up a fixie, you keep your eyes open. Are they lying around in the trash bin, or on the front porch?........as for this mysterious bike from the "late" model van ("late" means newer, by the way, in this context), you know the old saying, "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is." Sounds like a stolen bike to me. Seems as though it probably does to you, too. As for what your ethical duty is, I'd say for starters stop seeking out unattended bikes that are just "lying around." Bike theft makes me mad-
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Old 12-18-05, 03:37 PM
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ha ha... I guess my definition of decent and yours probably are not the same.

van= early-mid 90s touring van, "late" as in "not recent".

I live in a working class part of DC. Folks around here throw out or abandon beat-up entry and occasionally mid-level touring and road bikes from the 70s and 80s--not tons, but I run across a few in fields and alleys every once in a while. Maybe they are stolen, and broken/abandoned on joy rides. Looks like most of them are just utility riders (inverted handle bars, rust, etc.) that get tossed aside when they break down. The one I found last night was neither of these, it was an early 2000 model, decent quality ($2000 range) road bike, torn, not sawn, in two pieces, across the top tube and down tube and no way could anybody have done that joyriding. But I could see some clueless doofus throwing it on the side of the road--"uh, it's broke, I'll just toss it."

Anyways, no sh*t I have a notion it could stolen, was I not clear about that? The question is: what should I do about it? How do I go about finding its owner if it is?

re: unattended bikes. is it bike theft to take home and fix up an abandoned, non-functional bike that is going to get junked anyways? I'm not so sure I like your insinuation that I'm on the prowl to grab up bikes on porches, etc., or any other place attaching ownership. If this was the case, don't you think I probably would NOT be posting on a cycling bulletin board about an ethical dilemma regarding an abandoned bike?

If anyone has a good line on cheap, good quality second-hand fixie-compatible frames in the DC area, I'd love to hear it. Value Village in College Park is not cutting it; College Park bikes is mostly super high-end; Goodwill is totally hit-and-miss and usually crap; shaw ecovillage has like 4 bikes.
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Old 12-18-05, 04:06 PM
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If I accept something that's stolen, have I not become one of THEM at that point? Legally, I can tell you the answer is yes. And I think most would agree that it's true ethically as well......Better watch out for those "late" model vans next time-
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Old 12-18-05, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by comradehoser

re: unattended bikes. is it bike theft to take home and fix up an abandoned, non-functional bike that is going to get junked anyways? I'm not so sure I like your insinuation that I'm on the prowl to grab up bikes on porches, etc., or any other place attaching ownership. If this was the case, don't you think I probably would NOT be posting on a cycling bulletin board about an ethical dilemma regarding an abandoned bike?

If anyone has a good line on cheap, good quality second-hand fixie-compatible frames in the DC area, I'd love to hear it. Value Village in College Park is not cutting it; College Park bikes is mostly super high-end; Goodwill is totally hit-and-miss and usually crap; shaw ecovillage has like 4 bikes.
Herein lies the quandary. Here in NY, and I suspect D.C., you can find crappy old frames that others have picked up at suburban garage sales for $20 posted back on Craig'sList for $100. You could have turned around and done the same with the components.

Not a strange story, and not really dubious to be on the lookout for throw-aways. The east coast urban environment is highly competitive when it comes to rummaging and scavenging: if you don't want to miss out on the best deals around, you keep your eyes peeled. Doesn't mean you're trolling for potential easy larceny, I agree. One point about this: because of the possibility of people snatching things off of the street, most people I know here are pretty conscientious about watching out for their things: usually, if it's just lying on the street, no one around, it's been abandoned. I'm actually surprised the guy in the van didn't try and make a quick buck off of your honest question: "uh, yeah, that's mine, you wanna buy it?"

Originally Posted by comradehoser

Anyways, no sh*t I have a notion it could stolen, was I not clear about that? The question is: what should I do about it? How do I go about finding its owner if it is?
Seems that this is the ethical approach: since you suspect that it's stolen or something else kind of sketchy, but you have no way to ask the owner directly, you just have to try and locate the owner. I'd say that a post on Craig'slist with a general description of a 'found bike with components' and an offer for the owner to identify themself and the bike is a good one, along with maybe some postings in your local bike shops. Maybe ask around in the shops if anyone happens to know. You could also go post a little note with a ph. or email address on a tree or pole near where you found the bike. Obviously, you've already put a little effort into this.

Wait a little while, maybe a couple weeks, a month or more; if no responses, you could use the components and ultimately, if dude just contacts you out of the blue, be prepared to return them. I'd say that a certain extended period of time would make the bike yours. Heck, that's what the police do.

Maybe the bike was attached to a stolen vehicle? Just another theory.
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Old 12-18-05, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by well biked
If I accept something that's stolen, have I not become one of THEM at that point? Legally, I can tell you the answer is yes. And I think most would agree that it's true ethically as well......Better watch out for those "late" model vans next time-
You're venting unfounded frustrations and twisting information. He didn't "accept something stolen," he may have found something that was stolen. The law goes after people who deal in stolen merchandise because those people enable thieves to make their enterprise profitable. The poster hasn't indicated that he's planning on doing this at all, and he didn't ask, "where's the nearest fence." The law does not penalize a person for finding stolen merchandise if they have no idea that it's stolen; but what it does require is that if a person suspects something is stolen, they attempt to return it to its rightful owner. Seems that's what the poster's doing. Seems like the alternative would have been for him to just leave the bike for someone else who might find it and maybe decide to try and sell it or its parts for a quick buck; in this case, if you're someone who sees something, and you know that you'll make the effort to return it, you're probably being as ethical as you can be. There wasn't even a seller to try and pin it on in this case. It's basically a rule in the big city: if you leave something out on the street, you're giving up your claim. We're talking context in this case. Before you decide a person's guilty, make sure you consider where he's at, and what's considered reasonable behavior in this situation. His was reasonable.
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Old 12-18-05, 05:22 PM
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Comradehoser,

I can't see where you did anything wrong. People here leave bikes (and computers - exercise equipment - furniture - etc.) out all the time. We have a biannual city "yard cleanup" days with free pickup hauling to the dump. The expert "pickers" are out cruising early.
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Old 12-18-05, 05:30 PM
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If it's not locked up, or has someone standing watch on it, it's fair game. Especially in the NE of the USA.
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Old 12-18-05, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by peripatetic
You're venting unfounded frustrations and twisting information. He didn't "accept something stolen," he may have found something that was stolen. The law goes after people who deal in stolen merchandise because those people enable thieves to make their enterprise profitable. The poster hasn't indicated that he's planning on doing this at all, and he didn't ask, "where's the nearest fence." The law does not penalize a person for finding stolen merchandise if they have no idea that it's stolen; but what it does require is that if a person suspects something is stolen, they attempt to return it to its rightful owner. Seems that's what the poster's doing. Seems like the alternative would have been for him to just leave the bike for someone else who might find it and maybe decide to try and sell it or its parts for a quick buck; in this case, if you're someone who sees something, and you know that you'll make the effort to return it, you're probably being as ethical as you can be. There wasn't even a seller to try and pin it on in this case. It's basically a rule in the big city: if you leave something out on the street, you're giving up your claim. We're talking context in this case. Before you decide a person's guilty, make sure you consider where he's at, and what's considered reasonable behavior in this situation. His was reasonable.
Well let me say that I do apologize to comradehoser for the remark about looking for bikes on front porches. Yes, peripatic I suppose I was venting. I just don't like the idea of "scavenging," and I guess I expressed it a little too strongly in this case. I don't live on the east coast or in a big city, so I'm no expert on what goes on there. But from what I've seen, scavenging is often stretched into stealing, and I've been the victim of this type of thing a time or two, and it's a sore subject for me. What defines "left on the street?" Three feet from the curb? Six feet? I know, you big city guys will say "unlocked, and it's fair game." I'm sure that's true in some places, but it doesn't make it right.......comradehoser, I do wonder if there wasn't a corresponding house near the curb where you found the bike. Could you knock on the door and ask about the bike? Maybe, after all, someone did crash it into an overhang and they were just so disgusted they left it-
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Old 12-18-05, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by well biked
Maybe, after all, someone did crash it into an overhang and they were just so disgusted they left it-
That's kind of what I think, personally. As far as "scavenging" goes, in most big cities, it's not only acceptable, it's also very beneficial: here in NYC, where solid waste production per capita is greater than anywhere else in the world, people reusing others' junk actually benefits the city and the environment. I used to live in San Diego, and there, anyone who wanted to leave a large piece of trash either had to call and have Salvation come get it, or haul it to the landfill themselves: anything too big for the trucks would garner a fine. But in NYC and other NErn cities, mattresses, large pieces of furniture, and--worst of all--computers and consumer electronics, are an all-too-frequent feature of the sidewalk landscape.

As Top said, here in the NE, once it reaches the curb, it's fair game. Everyone knows this, and no one gets burned: if you leave something out, and you don't guard it, you can't blame its loss on theft. (Of course, this makes moving a real PIA.) I once scored a really nice banana plant off the street in front of an office building, but didn't have time to take it up to my apt. on the third floor, so I tried just nestling it among the trash cans in front of my building. A few hours later, I returned, and the lovely tree was gone. I was bummed and a bit surprised, but also gratified to know that even though I hadn't held onto it, it still wasn't headed for the landfill in Pennsylvania. Being ethical about scavenging is important; but I think scavenging, as opposed to consuming and wasting, is perhaps inherently more ethical: at least it serves a useful purpose. (Of course, I am not implying that this applies to the thief-posing-as-scavenger, who's just as much a thief as any other larcenist.)
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Old 12-18-05, 06:26 PM
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Post in craigslist generally for a found bike. If someone had one stolen, they'll be checking craigslist, and they can email you with details of what their bike looks like. If you repost once a week for a month and no one answers, keep the bike.

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Old 12-18-05, 06:28 PM
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My take, after seeing why some bikes seem abandoned, but arent....

Many people that can't afford anything but a bike to ride, often leave their bukes locked up outside...and they might work odd hours as well, which when combined with how many folks who are poor tend to not maintain their bikes to the extent we do, can lead to the impression that a bike is "abandoned".

...if it's in or next to a dumpster and unlocked....it's up to you, otherwise it's best to leave it be.
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Old 12-18-05, 11:19 PM
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I think the Japanese have the right idea. In Japan, if you find something, you put it in plain site VERY close to where you found it. They expect the owner to come and pick it up later. To take something that does not belong to you is considered rude.

I agree with catatonic (who is more old skool in this case than he might know), if it aint yours, leave it be.
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Old 12-19-05, 09:30 AM
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well-biked: I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with bike thieves. Who exactly is "THEM", though? To quote a rural south-centralian such as yourself: "We have met the enemy and he is us". WE are all in bed with thieves--or have been thieves--even if we won't admit that to ourselves. Just a point of fact to counter your somewhat black & white moral universe. As for being a thief personally, especially of cherished property, that is not something I relish or can ethically support.

As far as I'm concerned, reusing abandoned stuff is a positive virtue, and a social good, for the reasons peripatetic states. We live in a stupid, throw-away society. Foolish people throw good stuff away all the time. my mom and dad found a washer/dryer that was perfectly fine except for a $1 switch. my bro found a fully functional, perfect breadmaker. Guess it's in my genes.

If a bike is in any way secured and functional, then by my lights, that's probably somebody's bike (although at UMd., they finally cut off a bike that had been u-locked to a mall rail for a year.) Bikes I consider to be abandoned are in clearly public spaces (open fields) and/or are non-functional (broken chain stay, missing/tacoed wheels, no chain, etc.)

Anyways, thanks all for the feedback. Posting's up on craig's list, so hopefully somebody gets their bike back, or I get a lot of parts I couldn't normally afford. Win-win situation? I think so.
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Old 12-19-05, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by comradehoser
well-biked: I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with bike thieves. Who exactly is "THEM", though? To quote a rural south-centralian such as yourself: "We have met the enemy and he is us". WE are all in bed with thieves--or have been thieves--even if we won't admit that to ourselves. Just a point of fact to counter your somewhat black & white moral universe. As for being a thief personally, especially of cherished property, that is not something I relish or can ethically support.

As far as I'm concerned, reusing abandoned stuff is a positive virtue, and a social good, for the reasons peripatetic states. We live in a stupid, throw-away society. Foolish people throw good stuff away all the time. my mom and dad found a washer/dryer that was perfectly fine except for a $1 switch. my bro found a fully functional, perfect breadmaker. Guess it's in my genes.

If a bike is in any way secured and functional, then by my lights, that's probably somebody's bike (although at UMd., they finally cut off a bike that had been u-locked to a mall rail for a year.) Bikes I consider to be abandoned are in clearly public spaces (open fields) and/or are non-functional (broken chain stay, missing/tacoed wheels, no chain, etc.)

Anyways, thanks all for the feedback. Posting's up on craig's list, so hopefully somebody gets their bike back, or I get a lot of parts I couldn't normally afford. Win-win situation? I think so.
Comradehoser, you're doing the right thing in regard to trying to find out if the bike was abandoned, stolen, whatever. However, the problem I have with your situation and I think the problem you have with it, too, (as evidenced by the fact that you say you suspect it's stolen and you don't know exactly what to do) is in the fact that you're dealing in an area sometimes called "subjective morality." Subjective morality deals with the grey area of morality. We all agree that outright stealing is wrong, that's black and white, as you say, also known as "objective morality." The problem I have with this business of scavenging is that unless a bike is clearly IN THE TRASH WITH OTHER TRASH ITEMS IN AN AREA THAT A TRASH PICKUP IS REASONABLY EXPECTED, or is expressly given to you by the rightful owner, then you have to make a decision (and practice a form of subjective morality) as to whether you can make it yours without being morally, ethically, or legally wrong. You could say that this bike was indeed given to you by the guy in the van, but you seem to think the guy in the van was somewhat suspicious, so herein lies the ethical and moral dilemna. What did I mean when I referred to THEM? Well, assuming your suspicions are correct and the dude in the van stole the bike, AND assuming you were suspicious of the guy from the very beginning, I personally think you are on the wrong side of the ethical, moral, and possibly even legal line, and therefore you've become like a thief if you're willing to accept what you think to be stolen merchandise from a thief. If you don't agree with that, then so be it. Personally, I think if you really want to know about the bike you should go back to the place you found it and ask whoever lives there what the deal is. If it was thrown out by the legitimate owner, would it not be logical that it would have been done by the person that lives there? I don't see why you didn't do that in the first place-

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Old 12-19-05, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by well biked
If it was thrown out by the legitimate owner, would it not be logical that it would have been done by the person that lives there? I don't see why you didn't do that in the first place-
That's exactly the problem. In most areas in the US, people dump garbage anywhere they can that's away from their own homes; it's not reasonable to assume that even if the original owner dumped it, he dumped it near his own home - asking the neighbors won't likely do any good. I live in an area where the weekly garbage collection will accept even large furniture, but that doesn't reduce the amount of stuff illegally dumped on and near my block (I live at the edge of an induastrial area - we get everything from old tires to old car seats to broken industrial-sized photocopiers and matresses and heavy equipment, construction debris, and on and on dumped on our sidewalks and curbs around here)
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Old 12-19-05, 11:26 AM
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It's yours. Keep it.
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Old 12-19-05, 11:38 AM
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I don't see many bikes laying around in my area. If I did though, they'd still be there after I passed them by.
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Old 12-19-05, 11:59 AM
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Check area shops, somone may have contacted them to let them know to be on the lookout for the bike.
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Old 12-19-05, 12:09 PM
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The only time I take unattended things, such as a bike, is if it is in a dumpster or in the street pickup pile. Even then, I ask the person at the residence if it's OK. Now, I picked up a bike out of a curbside trash pickup pile once, it was a pretty beatup steal rigid Raleigh MTB from what looked like the early 90's. The frame was still great, but everything else except the handlebars, derailleurs and wheels needed to be replaced (BB bearings were rusted solid). The owner of the residence said he didn't want it anymore. I built it up with spare parts for a kid in the projects of Dallas who wanted to curb hop with his buddies.
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Old 12-21-05, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by webist
I don't see many bikes laying around in my area. If I did though, they'd still be there after I passed them by.
Gotta chime in again on this one. I used to live in Ft. Huachuca. Now I live in NYC. If I cruised by a bike there, I'd leave it, also. Here in NY, and DC, also, if you leave something unsecured, it's just an invitation. Someone mentioned impoverished people leaving their bikes in an apparently 'abandoned state,' even when they're not. Sorry, but in a big city, if a poor person cherishes something, they definitely secure it. No question. If they don't, they don't want the thing. You people in less urban areas are seeing things in very easy terms, but here in the big cities, everybody's stuff is all mixed up, including their garbage.

"If it's not next to a dumpster, then it's somebody's." Guys, in the city, the sidewalk's the dang dumpster. Trash collection occurs on the sidewalks, often with just bags and stuff thrown out. There are no big bins, like in the 'burbs or out West, labelled 'trash' that everything fits in. On my street, trash is picked up three times a week and on any of those days, often on the others, if something is there, it's been thrown out. If you live here, you know that. There's no 'accidental' abandonment that goes on. People also know this and go rummaging on trash days--totally ethically sound and unimpeachable behavior. Get off his back and remember the context before you cast judgment down upon him.

PS Why would a thief 'give' something stolen to the dude? Kind of defeats the purpose of the theft.
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Old 12-21-05, 07:15 PM
  #22  
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I have a stolen bike. I know its stolen and I cut the lock and took it.

The thieves around here steal bikes and lock them up elsewhere behind or between buildings. The return later and retrieve them at night. A guy saw one of the known thieves locking some up between my building and was doing a report. I left my camcorder in the window hoping to catch video of the person. After the tape ran out the person came by and retreived the stolen bmx bike. They left the other. I cut the 99 cent store style lock and put the bike in the laundry room and left a note saying I put the bike in storage and how to get it. The cops know where it is, and they have the serial numbers. Unfortunately its an old Schwinn ladies bike so the owner may have never noticed, or its so old they never bothered with it if they didn't know the serial. I posted fliers around the area and nobody has called me. So I have inherited a bike on our property I am sure is stolen. I have tried to return it, and the cops know this. It was legally cut since it is on our property. Nothing more I can do. Cops don't seem to care and dont want to take it. Theif won't return to get it like my note said for fear of getting busted. Too cheap for them to mess with.
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Old 12-21-05, 10:54 PM
  #23  
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I'm still stuck on the "Late model" issue. If a late model van is older, what's an early model?

I would think that after advertising for 60 days, you should be able to keep the bike. I had to wait that long for some cash I found when I was younger. No one claimed it, so it was mine to keep. A bike is a little easier to ID.
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Old 12-22-05, 04:13 PM
  #24  
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well biked.

I don't really enjoy being condescended to about the typology of morals. Personally, you are doing nothing to disabuse me of the impression that you are being inflexible and a-priori on these matters.

To recap the whole 20-second incident: there was circumstantial evidence (mostly just impressions) to suggest that this guy may have been a thief, or a dude about to put a shiny bike on the side of the road into his van. However, it was equally plausible that the guy was really the owner. As I said, the whole interaction was odd. If I see the dude again, I will ask him. Just because he drives an [early]-model van and doesn't want several hundred dollars in parts does not necessarily make him a thief, just silly, or rich (all three are often found together, however).

I basically wanted to know what I should do to ethically cover my ass IN CASE the bike was stolen, and how I should go about doing it.

on asking the guy at the house: working class neighborhoods in dc are all row housing--putting aside mr. robot's point about dumping at a distance (which this might have been), I would have to knock up and down the block. not something I want to do.

Regardless, thanks to well biked and peripatetic and the rest of y'all. The discussion's helped to sharpen my point of view on several issues. The war between use-value and exchange-value continues. And [ethical] scavenging ROCKS.
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