Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-28-06, 08:34 AM   #1
john bono
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
john bono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How is climbing measured?

I see a lot of threads where people say, "The ride had X feet of climbing." How is that measured? Is it a)simply the difference between the altitude from the departure point to the destination, b) the height of the highest point during the trip, or c) the sum of every climb during the trip? For example, let's say I rode a loop, which had a 200' hill, a 500' hill, and a 1000' hill. By using a)I wouldn't have had any net climbing(because I returned to the same point), by using b) I would have climbed 1000'(the highest hill), and by using c) I would have climbed 1700'(the sum of the three). Which is the right way to measure climbing?
john bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 09:04 AM   #2
UmneyDurak
RacingBear
 
UmneyDurak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NorCal
Bikes:
Posts: 8,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
It could be either b or c. For example that climb has 1000 feet of climbing, means elevation change is 1000ft. People also say it in context of entire ride. For example I did a century with 15k feet of climbing, obviously all the climbs are added together.
UmneyDurak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 09:24 AM   #3
jcm
Gemutlichkeit
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 2,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I only casually measure climbing by net altitude gain over the course, since fatigue has a cumulative effect on the day. In the end I measure climbs by pain and suffering.

If another rider in my club selected the course, I measure things less casually. Chase the bum all the way up, snapping at his heels.
jcm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 09:28 AM   #4
Nightshade
Humvee of bikes =Worksman
 
Nightshade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 5,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The "distance of grade" is much less important than the "percent of grade"
which measures the pull of gravity on the object going up /down the hill.

You can have a hill with a 40% grade that many will have to walk up no matter
how long it is. Then you could have a 2% grade that all fly over. One tactic
used to ease climbing of steep hill is to stretch the distance of the road to convert
that 40% grade to a 2% grade which will "seem" longer because you are on it longer
but the rise per foot will be easier to deal with.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
Nightshade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 09:34 AM   #5
SSP
Software for Cyclists
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by john bono
I see a lot of threads where people say, "The ride had X feet of climbing." How is that measured? Is it a)simply the difference between the altitude from the departure point to the destination
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john bono
b) the height of the highest point during the trip
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john bono
or c) the sum of every climb during the trip?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john bono
For example, let's say I rode a loop, which had a 200' hill, a 500' hill, and a 1000' hill. By using a)I wouldn't have had any net climbing(because I returned to the same point), by using b) I would have climbed 1000'(the highest hill), and by using c) I would have climbed 1700'(the sum of the three). Which is the right way to measure climbing?
Your loop would have 1700 feet of climbing (the sum of the three climbs).
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 09:54 AM   #6
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Actually climbing is often done as the sum of all climbs, which can be fuzzy. If there is a 30 foot 'climb' in hte middle of a decent it probably would not be counted. A hundred foot bump in a decent would not get counted by the pros, but many of us would count it. Perhaps the best way to look at it is that it is the total of all the feet where you think of it as being on a climb.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 11:05 AM   #7
'nother
semifreddo amartuerer
 
'nother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern CA
Bikes: several
Posts: 4,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yeah it is fuzzy. Technically the definition of "total climbing" is "the sum of all positive elevation changes". That part seems pretty easy, but clearly delineating a positive elevation change is the problem, and it depends on the sampling rate of the device measuring elevation (precision of the device may come into play as well, but to a lesser extent).

Something to help you think about it: if I start at 0' and climb to 50', then drop down a small dip to 25', then continue up to 100', I've climbed a total of (50 - 0) + (100 - 25), or 125 feet. OK, pretty simple right?

So now let's pretend my altimeter is taking a sample every 10 seconds. And let's pretend that it takes a sample while I'm at the very top of the first bump, e.g. 50'. Then let's pretend that I descend into the 25' dip, and then back up to the 50' mark of the next bump in under 10 seconds. My altimeter now takes another sample but as far as it knows I'm still at 50' -- the dip (and subsequent climb) did not even register. So as far as it knows, I will only have climbed 100' by the time I get to the top of the next bump.

This is just an exaggerated example but it demonstrates part of the problem. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the device; a perfectly accurate and calibrated device that only samples once every hour could miss a lot of climbing!
'nother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 11:43 AM   #8
stapfam
Time for a change.
 
stapfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Posts: 19,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I do a 100 mile offroad ride each year. You start at Sea level and you finish at Sea level. Zero climbing? No way. In between I have climbed 10,000ft and as far as I am concerned the downhills are a bonus. Or they would be if you could bomb down them. They are almost as tricky as the climbs.

If you do 10,000 ft of climbing you know about it.
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


Spike Milligan
stapfam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 12:12 PM   #9
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
Posts: 17,984
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
I think climbing is measured like fish...there's a lot of air added in between the important bits I mean, if you're going to count the climbing, shouldn't you also count the descending? It only seems fair.
__________________
Stuart Black
New! Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
New! Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 12:46 PM   #10
SSP
Software for Cyclists
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
re: sampling rates and altimeters

Different altimeters have different "triggers" (i.e., how many feet of "up" will trigger a gain), as well as sampling rates. Older models of the Avocet brand had a 30 ft (10 meter) trigger, meaning that you would not get credit for any 25 foot rollers. Newer models have a 3 ft (1 meter) trigger.

FWIW, the rule of thumb when on a group ride is for everyone to compare their altimeter values at the end of the ride. Then, for purposes of logging the ride, you use the one that reports the greatest amount of climbing.
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-06, 04:27 PM   #11
'nother
semifreddo amartuerer
 
'nother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern CA
Bikes: several
Posts: 4,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSP
FWIW, the rule of thumb when on a group ride is for everyone to compare their altimeter values at the end of the ride. Then, for purposes of logging the ride, you use the one that reports the greatest amount of climbing.
Wait, what happened to "...and add 10%"?

Anyway yeah triggers, sampling rates, and precision (10' resolution versus 1' resolution) are all at play. I ride with a few folks who are obsessed with getting it "right"...sometimes hard to explain that there's really no "right" when it comes to measuring accumulated climbing.
'nother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-06, 09:39 PM   #12
TomM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes: Trek5000
Posts: 951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightwad
One tactic used to ease climbing of steep hill is to stretch the distance of the road to convert that 40% grade to a 2% grade which will "seem" longer because you are on it longer
but the rise per foot will be easier to deal with.
This may be a stupid question but I am a flatlander from Florida who doesn't have to deal with hills. How do you stretch the distance? Ride diagonally across the road?
TomM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-06, 10:05 PM   #13
ericgu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM
This may be a stupid question but I am a flatlander from Florida who doesn't have to deal with hills. How do you stretch the distance? Ride diagonally across the road?
Yep. You "tack" back and forth at a 45 degree angle, or even more if you're dying.
__________________
Eric

2005 Trek 5.2 Madone, Red with Yellow Flames (Beauty)
199x Lemond Tourmalet, Yellow with fenders (Beast)

Read my cycling blog at http://riderx.info/blogs/riderx
Like climbing? Goto http://www.bicycleclimbs.com
ericgu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-06, 11:51 AM   #14
webist
Huachuca Rider
 
webist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Bikes: Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 4,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
Yep. You "tack" back and forth at a 45 degree angle, or even more if you're dying.
Now that's an interesting notion.
__________________
Just Peddlin' Around
webist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-06, 05:34 PM   #15
TomM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes: Trek5000
Posts: 951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
Yep. You "tack" back and forth at a 45 degree angle, or even more if you're dying.
The GPS track must look interesting.
TomM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-06, 09:08 AM   #16
Pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Bikes: litespeed, cannondale
Posts: 2,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
Yep. You "tack" back and forth at a 45 degree angle, or even more if you're dying.

A 45 degree angle? That would be a 100% grade!! The steepest paved road I have yet seen is 28% and the steepest dirt road was 33%. There are very few paved roads in the USA or anywhere else for that matter that are over 30% or even 20% or even 10%. I even doubt whether there is a paved road that is over 40% for any meaningful distance.

Personally, I don't like tacking. Most people tack into the other lane of traffic. When someone is tacking they are often pretty much beat and they don't really pay attention. I think it is probably better to just get off the bike and walk. If the hill is that steep, it probably will not be very long.
Pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-06, 09:11 AM   #17
SSP
Software for Cyclists
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat
A 45 degree angle? That would be a 100% grade!! The steepest paved road I have yet seen is 28% and the steepest dirt road was 33%. There are very few paved roads in the USA or anywhere else for that matter that are over 30% or even 20% or even 10%. I even doubt whether there is a paved road that is over 40% for any meaningful distance.

Personally, I don't like tacking. Most people tack into the other lane of traffic. When someone is tacking they are often pretty much beat and they don't really pay attention. I think it is probably better to just get off the bike and walk. If the hill is that steep, it probably will not be very long.
I think he meant tack at 45 degrees with respect to the direction of the road...not that it was a 45 degree grade.
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-06, 10:15 AM   #18
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat
A 45 degree angle? That would be a 100% grade!! The steepest paved road I have yet seen is 28% and the steepest dirt road was 33%. There are very few paved roads in the USA or anywhere else for that matter that are over 30% or even 20% or even 10%. I even doubt whether there is a paved road that is over 40% for any meaningful distance.

Personally, I don't like tacking. Most people tack into the other lane of traffic. When someone is tacking they are often pretty much beat and they don't really pay attention. I think it is probably better to just get off the bike and walk. If the hill is that steep, it probably will not be very long.
Actually over 10% is reasonable common, though usually not for long sections. 20% gets rarer, but usually you can find at least a small climb that steep in any mountian area. In one Vuelta there was a 20% section of a coiuple of miles. (I'm pretty sure it was one that Anquetil rode). Over 30% is harder to find, but Fargo Street in Los Angeles is 33%. The L.A. Wheelman have an annual hillclimb there and it serves to illustrate that tacking has limits. Those trying to tack Fargo Street often end up going down when their uphill pedal hits the road. And of course to tack you eventually have to make that almost 180 degree turn. At which point you are going straight uphill at least for a little while.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-06, 10:16 AM   #19
withak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I guess it's like turning a straight road/trail going up a hill into a buch of switchbacks by zigzagging back and forth across the road/trail.
withak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-06, 01:46 PM   #20
BluesDawg
just keep riding
 
BluesDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Milledgeville, Georgia
Bikes: 2015 Specialized AWOL Comp frameset (custom build), 2015 Zukas custom road, 2014 Specialized Crave Pro 29, 2003 KHS Milano Tandem, 1986 Nishiki Cadence rigid MTB, 1980ish Fuji S-12S
Posts: 13,248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
I measure climbs by the length of tongue hanging out of my mouth when I am on the toughest section.
BluesDawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:26 AM.