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View Poll Results: How does the plan to ID the hazardous, dangerous, and skilled drivers resonate?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • lack of funding is solved to provide sufficient funds for increasing driver skills

    1 14.29%
  • lack of funding is still not enough

    0 0%
  • financial pain would increase awareness for those 2% hazardous and dangerous drivers

    2 28.57%
  • financial pain needs to be higher

    3 42.86%
  • vanity "skilled driver" designation is appealing

    1 14.29%
  • vanity "very skilled" driver designation is appealing

    2 28.57%
  • vanity increased skilled drivers speed limits is appealing

    1 14.29%
  • testing for 3 foot passing clearing on 2 lane roads is appealing

    4 57.14%
  • it is time to work on reducing the daily death & injury rate from today's 2,945 victims

    2 28.57%
  • it is not time to work on reducing the daily death & injury rate from today's 2,945 victims

    1 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Living longer thru cycling and road awareness - LONG

    Since this is a longer thread, I'm using an outline format so you can either read it all or scan ahead to the areas of your interest.

    Overview, this is a plan to ID the hazardous, dangerous and skilled drivers on the roads so it is easier for us all to ride on the roads without being killed or injured.

    advocacy subforum tend to focus on safety of bikes vs motor vehicles and doesn't talk about safety when transporting bikes. The problem is bigger-- not just cyclists, only 784 deaths in 2005, but dismal traffic safety expectations and standards effect us all. Why not subforum?
    1- need a more general reaction of common cyclists and not just those who are advocates while on cylcles but also when transporting bikes
    2- need more feedback on value of ideas presented


    Cycling has many benefits, else you wouldn't be here, right?
    Also has risks-- as we share the road with normal traffic and mix of drivers.

    Out of 100 drivers, about 2 drivers will kill or injure another person this year.

    1/50 is really dangerous and just because this carnage and violence has continued for decades does not reduce the effect of allowing dangerous drivers on the roadways.

    This problem has been ignored by
    ..old media: TV, newspapers, mags
    ..politicans
    ..cycling advocates

    How severe is the problem?
    Death & Injuries, traffic, last available year is 2004
    yearly...........2,827,189
    monthly...........235,599

    How does this compare to politicalized deaths and injuries?

    Deaths & Injuries in 10 years of Vietnam war: 200,713
    Less than one month of sharing the roads with these dangerous drivers
    Monthly death & injury rate occurance vs Vietnam: 141 x greater
    daily traffic effect of these dangerous drivers: 2,945


    Deaths & Injuries of US wars: revolution, 1812, mexican, civil war, spanish american, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf

    2,222,298

    Months of carnage and mayhem on roads to equal 42 years of wars----- just 9 1/2 months

    What does NSTB want to do to fix this problem?
    Of 8 major initiatives, only 2 are directed at drivers. And of those only subsets of drivers: young drivers and DUI


    Still hanging in there? Now is where I need your input as to validity of observations and feedback.


    Why is this deplorable situation allowed to exist?
    --no victim advocate
    --no pain points for bad drivers
    --old media is looking for sound bites and not problem solving

    Suggestions on possible methods to decrease our common exposure to road hazards
    ++ build awareness by mentioning the 2,945 daily deaths and injuries by sharing the road at any conversation opportunity
    ++ associate with similar minded political advocacy groups, whenever they develop
    ++ build bike forum rough consensus on what is needed to decrease common road hazards

    Ideas on driving the problem home to cocooned drivers
    Why have present system have failed for decades
    ..focus is only on vehicle and not on drivers
    ..insurance works to isolate bad drivers from pain
    ..there is no funding source available for better driver advocacy [ naturally, if drivers improve, then cyclists safety will improve even more ]

    We need a federal mandate to have states develop laws to develop, nurture and assist active driver safety. As recent BMW ad correctly says, "the best accident, is the one avoided." It is estimated over 90% of accidents are caused by drivers and not the vehicle, roadways, etc.


    STICKS
    ==========================================
    General
    . dollar amounts are indexed for inflation
    . dollar amounts for those earning less than $50,000 are payable either in lump sum or $150/mo without interest
    . signs are 2 feet wide and 18 inches high
    . fault is excluded from consideration. Question is only did death or injury occur while driving. If so, then subject
    to penalty. Even if DUI blows thru stop light and hurts/kills someone in your vehicle.
    . no exceptions to penalty by any appeal to age or other subsets of current drivers


    New Driver classes
    - dangerous driver
    - very dangerous driver
    - hazardous driver
    - very hazardous driver
    - skilled driver
    - very skilled driver

    Accidents involving deaths -- dangerous and very dangerous driver classes
    ================================================================
    1st occurance-- Create events for: funding, financial pain, social pain
    .. driver/family/estate pays fine to gov to fund active driver safety education programs
    .. Fine is the greater of 3,000 or 3% of last 1040 form
    .. driver must attach hi visibility yellow background sign: "CAUTION - known dangerous driver" for 10 years
    to left, right and rear of vehicle. Sign will include a 5" skull and crossbones icon.
    .. driver must have operating slow flashing,revolving yellow caution light on the roof whenever vehicle is in motion [similar to blue unmarked police car roof light put on roof by driver]
    .. state must add class "dangerous driver" to drivers license and add driver's name to national
    dangerous driver database
    .. maximum speed for driver is 5 mph less than posted speeds. [ revenue opportunity for local and state police]



    2nd occurance-- increase events: funding, financial pain and social pain
    ..driver/family/estate pays fine to gov to fund federal active driver safety education programs
    ..Fine is the greater of 10,000 or 10% of last 1040 form
    ..Mandatory restriction of drivers license to only commutes to work/medical suppliers for 20 years
    ..driver must attach high visibility yellow and red background sign: "CAUTION - known very dangerous driver" for 20 years to left, right and rear of vehicle. Sign will include a 5" skull and crossbones icon.
    .. driver may only drive in vehicles with roof bar and two operating yellow caution lights, including day light hours
    .. state must add class "very dangerous driver" to drivers license and add driver's name to national
    dangerous driver database
    .. maximum speed for driver is 10 mph less than posted speeds. [ revenue opportunity for local and state police]


    3rd occurance-- 3rd strike and you're out
    ..driver loses license permanently
    ..drivers biographical infomation and 1040 identity numbers listed in national: prohibited drivers database
    ..all states are required to clear new drivers in the national database


    Accidents involving injuries -- hazardous and very hazardous driver classifications
    ==================================================================
    1st occurance
    .. driver/family/estate pays fine to gov to fund active driver safety education programs
    .. Fine is the greater of 1,500 or 1.5% of last 1040 form
    .. driver must attach high visibility yellow background sign: "CAUTION - hazardous driver" for 10 years
    to left, right and rear of vehicle. Sign will include a 8" crutch icon.
    .. driver must have operating slow flashing,revolving yellow caution light on the roof whenever vehicle is in motion
    [similar to blue unmarked police car roof light put on roof by driver]
    .. state must add class "hazardous driver" to drivers license and add driver's name to national
    hazardous driver database
    .. maximum speed for driver is 5 mph less than posted speeds. [ revenue opportunity for local and state police]



    2nd occurance of accident with injuries
    .. family, estate pays fine to gov to fund active driver safety education programs
    .. Fine is the greater of 5,000 or 5% of last 1040 form
    .. Mandatory restriction of drivers license to only commutes to work/medical suppliers for 10 years .. driver must

    attach high visibility yellow and red background sign: "CAUTION - very hazardous driver" for 10 years
    to left, right and rear of vehicle. Sign will include a 8" crutch icon.
    .. driver may only drive in vehicles with roof bar and two operating yellow caution lights, including day light hours
    .. state must add class "very hazardous driver" to drivers license and add driver's name to national
    very hazardous driver database
    .. maximum speed for driver is 10 mph less than posted speeds. [ revenue opportunity for local and state police]

    3rd occurance
    ..driver loses license permanently
    ..drivers biographical infomation and IRS ID information listed in national: prohibitted drivers database
    ..all states are required to clear new drivers in the national database


    CARROTS
    ==========================================
    General
    no accidents involving death or injury in last 10 years
    vehicle handling skills are granted only for tested vehicle
    vehicle handling skills must be recertified every 5 years
    "rewards" are both vanity label on drivers license and increase of allowable speed limits. This should not be a public safety risk because speed limits are usually set by
    -- 70 percentile of traffic on road
    -- with the assumption that driving is NOT job number 1 for the driver
    -- with the assumption there is no driving skill training

    Skilled Driver Award
    ================
    Qualification
    ..passed saloom course by meeting average speed and not knocking over any cones
    ..be able to stop at 30 mph on dry payment without swerving and stopping within 10 feet of professional drivers
    ..be able to stop at 60 mph on dry payment without swerving and stopping within 10 feet of professional drivers
    ..be able to stop at 30 mph on wet payment without swerving and stopping within 10 feet of professional drivers
    ..be able to stop at 60 mph on wet payment without swerving and stopping within 10 feet of professional drivers
    ..be able to pass cyclist on common 2 lane road with 3 feet of clearance between any vehicle parts and cyclist
    $20 qualification entry fee is forwarded to same national good driver advocacy group

    Award carrot
    ..driver can post magnetic sign with high visiblity green background "Skilled Driver" on tested vehicle
    ..driver is immune from traffic tickets for speeding less than 5 mph over posted speed
    .. state adds "skilled driver" to drivers license


    Very Skilled Driver Award
    ==================
    Qualification
    .. successfully completed professional drivers course at least equal to the Bob Debount {spelling?** driving school
    ..be able to pass cyclist on common 2 lane road with 3 feet of clearance between any vehicle parts and cyclist
    $40 qualification entry fee is forwarded to same national good driver advocacy group

    Award carrot
    ..driver can post magnetic sign with high visiblity green background "Very Skilled Driver" on tested vehicle
    ..driver is immune from traffic tickets for speeding less than 10 mph over posted speed
    .. state adds "very skilled driver" to drivers license



    Impact of program on cyclists
    1. now can manage traffic by exception, just look for the 2 to 3 % of vehicles with signs on them
    2. green signs mean driver is not a risk
    3. yellow signs mean watch very very carefully
    4. yellow lights also mean watch carefully and provide cyclist awareness notification in reduced light


    Ok, what do you think?

    Is the lack of funding problem for increasing driver skill sets solved?
    Currently, no funding.
    At current rates 42,636 deaths [same as 2004] times $3,000 would generate $127,908,000.00
    At current rates 2,788,000 injuries [same as 2004] tmes $1,500 would generate $4,182,000,000.00
    Total ANNUAL funding: $4,182 million
    Even if government wastes 1/2 of this, there is still $2,091 million a year available for advertisements and
    driver skill improvement.

    Is the pain for bad driving appropriate for income levels and severity of offense?
    Is the dollar amount high enough to make an impact?
    Is the monthly minimum payment without interest reasonable for lower income people?
    Is the percentage of income high enough to make impact on those who earn over $100,000 a year?
    Are the stigmas of 1. vehicle sign, 2. vehicle light, and 3. drivers license entry sufficient to get across
    to those 2 percent of dangerous drivers that this behavior is no longer tolerated?



    Is the reward for skilled driving something that would appeal to either you or someone you know?
    Do you know anyone who would find the "skilled driver" or "very skilled driver" designation appealing?
    Would these same people be able to handle increased speed limits in a responsible manner?
    Is this enough of an award, or do we need to sweeten the pot more?




    Do you have better suggestions?
    I'm not saying these are perfect, but there has to be a better solution than killing and maining in 9 months more than have been killed and mained in 42 years of US warfare. In your discussion, please comment on something that solves the

    1-funding for increasing public awareness,
    2-pain points for those 2 out of 100 dangerous and hazardous drivers, and
    3-offers rewards for skilled and very skilled drivers.


    Something new is way way way better than current hazardous situation. Thank you for plowing thru this long thread. I look forward to reading your reaction.

    sources
    =======
    Death and injury data for roads in USA
    http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd...4HTML/tbl2.htm
    Current Most wanted federal improvements
    http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/mostwanted/highwayissues.htm
    Motor vehicle accident overview
    http://en.iedia.org/wiki/Car_accident
    Hi 'o Silver away

  2. #2
    Eternal Cat3 Rookie branman1986's Avatar
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    a few random thoughts...

    we could all drive 25mph and reduce the car related deaths to practically 0. It's time management & efficiency($) vs. potential highway deaths. We have to make decisions like this all the time...you can put the value of a life by the cost of abatement to save the extra life(which varies wildly). People want to get places faster, so they're willing to incure societal accidents.

    I'd like the ability to drive faster if I were a "skilled" driver, but it wouldn't prevent people from driving slowly in the left lane, which probably causes as many accidents as driving too fast.

    Most fatal accidents are caused by falling asleep at the wheel(I think), which is pretty independent of driving skill.

    I do agree with punishing poor drivers more severely. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

    Civil lawsuits should take care of the difference in income/wealth for penalties against bad drivers. ie, rich drivers get sued for much more than poor drivers, so the financial pain should be similar

    I dunno, it's too early in the morning for my brain to work properly
    Last edited by branman1986; 09-02-06 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by branman1986
    a few random thoughts...
    I'd like the ability to drive faster if I were a "skilled" driver, but it wouldn't prevent people from driving slowly in the left lane, which probably causes as many accidents as driving too fast.
    Thanks for the feedback. Actually I think slow drivers impeding traffic flow cause more accidents than driving fast. Fast driving as a cause is just a simple excuse to avoid doing accident cause analysis.

    Civil lawsuits should take care of the difference in income/wealth for penalties against bad drivers. ie, rich drivers get sued for much more than poor drivers, so the financial pain should be similar

    I dunno, it's too early in the morning for my brain to work properly
    Civil would still be available. Fault/nofault and reimbursement to victims is not changed. Just an addition, like the added tax on cigarettes. You're involved with, then you pay without victim having to do anything.
    Hi 'o Silver away

  4. #4
    Older I get, Better I was velonomad's Avatar
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    Stickers on a car aren't going to stop anybody from getting runover anymore than will increasing driver education,fines and jail sentances. The only thing that is going to save your ass on the road is your own diligence. I have managed to last 30 years as a cyclist so far only because I watch out for myself and avoid taking unnecessary risks.

  5. #5
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Signs, ala magnetic type signs for magnetic cars, are not designed for safety. Their primary purpose is to let others know how many dangerous and hazardous drivers are on the roads with them and raise awareness for more safety adjustments in the future. Look how long it took for smoking to become taboo. It'll take at least that long for dangerous and hazardous driving to switch from public consciousness as that's just the way it is to I won't put up with this mayhem another day.

    Imagine the day when a real driving skill test is required and not the current, are you breathing and do you have money?
    Hi 'o Silver away

  6. #6
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
    Signs, ala magnetic type signs for magnetic cars, are not designed for safety. Their primary purpose is to let others know how many dangerous and hazardous drivers are on the roads with them and raise awareness for more safety adjustments in the future. Look how long it took for smoking to become taboo. It'll take at least that long for dangerous and hazardous driving to switch from public consciousness as that's just the way it is to I won't put up with this mayhem another day.

    Imagine the day when a real driving skill test is required and not the current, are you breathing and do you have money?
    Pilots, marine captains, semi truck drivers all have to be tested regually and certifed as competent to
    operate their"vehicles". What if "car" drivers were to fall under this same level of certification testing?

    I'd say that many would fail thus clearing the road for drivers that care enough to invest time honing
    skill sets requried to "be" a good driver. The careless,drunk,talking on cell phone, or daydreaming drivers
    would disappear from our roads overnight.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  7. #7
    Senior Member skiahh's Avatar
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    1st, there'd actually be NO hazardous or dangerous drivers on the road. Or very few. Once a government entity slaps that label on you no insurance company is going to cover you unless you pay a rate that would be prohibitively high for all but the richest of people.

    2nd, fines can't be a percentage of income. I think that would violate the "equal protection" clause or something that says we all pay the same for the same offense. I mean... would you advocate a percentage of expected life remaining as a valid, fair prison sentencing guideline? That way, if you're 60 and kill someone, you only have to spend 15 years in jail but if you're 20, you spend 55 in jail for the same crime.

    3rd, stickers and lights to help warn cyclists is, to be blunt, just stupid. Do you regularly ride looking over your shoulder at the traffic coming up behind you? How many road riders actually use a rear view mirror to be able to see that flashing light on the car? I don't. Great to know that guy who just rear ended you was a dangerous driver, but how did it help make me more cautious of this guy coming up behind me?

    4th, one honest accident and you're branded for 10 years? Are we really moving towards a zero tolerance society? No fault considered; be involved in one accident where death or injury occurs and slap the Scarlet Letter onto you. May as well be for life in this day an age. That info would probably wind up as part of your credit score which affects not only loan rates, but life insurance (for a bad driver, maybe not a bad thing), job qualifications, security clearances and who knows what else?

    5th, isn't - by definition - breaking the laws being a hazardous driver? So, to reward skilled drivers by allowing them to be hazardous drivers (speeding) is kind of an "oxymoron".

    6th, how do you FORCE someone to put a magnetic sign on their car? Lots of people take chances at being caught breaking laws - speeding, for example - and regularly don't. Cops can't just pull you over to see if you're a bad driver. Sure, you'd get an extra fine or something if you did get pulled over for breaking a law and weren't displaying your stickers/light, but how does that help your cyclist looking over his shoulder while riding down the road?

    I didn't vote because I didn't see any choice for none of these ideas are good, feasable or will actually work.
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  8. #8
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it that you took time to give a reasonable consideration to the ideas and respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    1st, there'd actually be NO hazardous or dangerous drivers on the road. Or very few. Once a government entity slaps that label on you no insurance company is going to cover you unless you pay a rate that would be prohibitively high for all but the richest of people.
    1. way too many drive with no insurance, thus uninsured motorist coverage
    2. Insurance companies should rate these new negative driver designations the same as DUI. Anyone know what that does to insurance rates?


    2nd, fines can't be a percentage of income. I think that would violate the "equal protection" clause or something that says we all pay the same for the same offense. I mean... would you advocate a percentage of expected life remaining as a valid, fair prison sentencing guideline? That way, if you're 60 and kill someone, you only have to spend 15 years in jail but if you're 20, you spend 55 in jail for the same crime.
    Penalties can be whatever people want. Smokers rights don't exist any more. Our system works by
    1. congress passing laws
    2. executive enforcing laws
    3. courts sayings laws are bad
    4. congress changing laws to remove court objections

    The lower dollar limit was designed to avoid the criticism of favoring the rich. I suppose the dollar amount could be dropped and have all just pay a percentage. There needs to be some mechanism that makes Warren Buffet and Bill Gates drive as safely as Joe and Mary Six-pack.

    Thinking some more, I don't think a percentage challenge would hold water in court. People have to pay different percentages to IRS based on their income earned.

    3rd, stickers and lights to help warn cyclists is, to be blunt, just stupid. Do you regularly ride looking over your shoulder at the traffic coming up behind you? How many road riders actually use a rear view mirror to be able to see that flashing light on the car? I don't. Great to know that guy who just rear ended you was a dangerous driver, but how did it help make me more cautious of this guy coming up behind me?
    Again, the idea here is primarily public awareness of both the scope of the problem and some attempt at reducing risk by alerting those who share the road that hazard exists. We currently require blinking lights for wide loads on roads, why not something for other hazards, especially those related to the driver?

    You don't use mirrors? Ugh. I use 2 mirrors, helmet and bars. And yet I don't always check the traffic coming up on me. But I usually catch about 1/2 which is better than no mirror and not having a clue. I'm rarely passed by someone with a blinking light, but I think that would help me notice the vehicle.


    4th, one honest accident and you're branded for 10 years? Are we really moving towards a zero tolerance society? No fault considered; be involved in one accident where death or injury occurs and slap the Scarlet Letter onto you. May as well be for life in this day an age. That info would probably wind up as part of your credit score which affects not only loan rates, but life insurance (for a bad driver, maybe not a bad thing), job qualifications, security clearances and who knows what else?
    This is a major part of the problem. The mentality that the driver is an innocent victim. Rubbish. Over 90% of "accidents" are just p. poor driving relabeled as an accident. Well, actually I can see some fender bender accidents happening, but those that involve death or injury are more than a minor brain fart. Some may argue that if someone blows thru a light/stop sign and plows into you that is an accident that you should not be penalized for. It is this mentality that has contributed to the 2.8 billion deaths and injuries each year. Defensive driving is just like defensive riding of a bike. You don't proceed thru any intersection, regardless of your rights, until you have checked to see you won't be clipped.

    Does anyone know how long a DUI stays on your records?

    All your other comments tell me this is a great idea. No longer would people be able to treat driving as a parttime activity and if they are driving they would have to put this as their number one priority: over talking on the phone, changing CD's, etc.

    Remember only 1.5% are bad drivers.

    Zero tolerance? heck I don't know, but I do know the current culture comes down hard on DUI's and smokers.



    5th, isn't - by definition - breaking the laws being a hazardous driver? So, to reward skilled drivers by allowing them to be hazardous drivers (speeding) is kind of an "oxymoron".

    No, there is a difference between breaking the law and being hazardous. How often do you see drivers in the left lane suddenly drive safely and break the law and cross the line into the shoulder in order to avoid an accordian crash? Saw it just last week in CA.

    Besides speed limits are not based on skill sets of driver. They are based on revenue generating desire by local govts. Because of the flawed method in which speed limits are set,
    1. most curve "speed limits" are 15 to 20 mph below what is safe
    2. most speed limits above 25 mph are 10 to 15 mph below what is safe. Typically non rush hour flow of traffic everywhere I've driven is about 8 mph above speed limit.

    6th, how do you FORCE someone to put a magnetic sign on their car? Lots of people take chances at being caught breaking laws - speeding, for example - and regularly don't. Cops can't just pull you over to see if you're a bad driver. Sure, you'd get an extra fine or something if you did get pulled over for breaking a law and weren't displaying your stickers/light, but how does that help your cyclist looking over his shoulder while riding down the road?
    Thought I addressed this, but looks like I may not have. You can just make the offense penalty of moving from a regular drivers license to a restricted license for 12 months. It is unrealistic to expect cops to pull over everyone. But when they stop someone and license says bad driver, bingo big time revenue opportunity for city/state.

    Signs won't help cyclists from rear, but that's not where the greatest risk is. Signs would help cyclists decide if vehicle is more likely to do a right cross or left cross in front of/into them.

    Hummm, it might be a good idea to include in the skilled and very skilled driver categories training from the other side. The top 10 common mistakes motor vehicle drivers make that cause deaths and injuries to bikers and cyclists. Note motorcycle injuries and deaths have risen in last couple of years and haven't seen any analysis of why. For both, right hook and left hook are most dangerous cager moves.




    I didn't vote because I didn't see any choice for none of these ideas are good, feasable or will actually work.
    OK, now since you have responded with reasoned thoughts, remember I just wanted to start discussion.
    236 thousand deaths and injuries each and every month is way way too high. The current govt plan is to try to piece meal "fix" this problem by 0.25% or 0.50% each year. Too many needless deaths and injuries because everyone wants to ignore the problem.

    DUI is only 10% of that 236 thousand. What is being done about the 90%, zippy do dah.

    What ideas do you have to fix the problem?

    46,000 cyclists were injured in 2003 and estimates are 41,000 in 2004.
    I don't find this acceptable. But we can't get effective action on cyclists death and injuries alone because the numbers aren't big enough. However when you include all all deaths and injuries by poor driving, we have a sizable number that should enlist public support for action

    2,827,189 annual deaths and injuries by bad drivers
    Hi 'o Silver away

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    Actually a much stiffer test like in Germany would be nice, or make a regular license just like a commercial license with all the tests and what not.

    I used to drive for a living. Simple rule my employer had, so many bad points equaled unemployment. To this day, I stop at stop signs, signal turns, et al. Even on a bike which here in NC is considered a vehicle.

  10. #10
    "Per Ardua ad Surly" nelson249's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tightwad
    Pilots, marine captains, semi truck drivers all have to be tested regually and certifed as competent to
    operate their"vehicles". What if "car" drivers were to fall under this same level of certification testing?

    I'd say that many would fail thus clearing the road for drivers that care enough to invest time honing
    skill sets requried to "be" a good driver. The careless,drunk,talking on cell phone, or daydreaming drivers
    would disappear from our roads overnight.

    The problem is, of course, the sheer size of the driving population. Compared to the numbers of those holding masters' certificates, aircraft pilots and even heavy truck operators, the numbers of car drivers to be tested continually would be overwhelming. People are all for mandatory testing until they have to pay for it. Further, given the structure of cities in North America and the lack of alternative transport, suddenly depriving millions of people of their drivers' permit would be electoral suicide.
    1997 Mongoose Hilltopper, 1988 Bianchi Specialissima, 2006 Surly Cross-Check, 2010 Norco City Glide, 1947 CCM Single-speed.

    "Take him to the forge and show him the instruments"
    Bernardo Gui, Inquisitor The Name of the Rose

  11. #11
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    I think your plan is needlessly complex. We need to:

    1) Raise the bar for driving testing (say require 90% on written test, and NO significant errors on road test)
    2) Re-test drivers every 5 years, and after ANY accident
    3) ENFORCE traffic laws
    4) Remove licenses for any dangerous driving. A DUI, an accident in which you are at fault, etc. should all be an automatic loss of license until a driver can show he/she is competent

    Driving is a very dangerous activity, yet almost all negligence is excused.

  12. #12
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson249
    Further, given the structure of cities in North America and the lack of alternative transport, suddenly depriving millions of people of their drivers' permit would be electoral suicide.
    What better way to prompt public support for more public mass transit in all cities?? People and
    politicians will not see that mass transit is necessary due to dwindling oil reserves until they are
    slapped so hard they wake up.

    Given the choice of bicycles , mass transit, or walk many will quickly find the money for tolleys
    and bikes. The real suprise here is that many of the angry drivers will suddenly find out that it's
    really very nice not to have to feed and care for a car while they relax on their way to where
    ever riding on a trolley.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  13. #13
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson249
    People are all for mandatory testing until they have to pay for it.
    My plan does not call for manadatory testing. Only testing is voluntary for skilled and very skilled drivers.
    However, mandatory testing makes sense and well as real world skill testing, including at least the following:

    1. panic stopping at slow speeds
    2. panic stopping at moderate speeds [re 60 mph]
    3. curvy course when driver stays within the cones
    4. panic stopping on wet payment
    5. in snow country, panic stopping on snow and ice
    6. in snow country, 70 degree turns on snow and ice
    7. on snow or wet pavement, break traction and regain control without rolling or 360 spinning

    Then I would add more real world training and educate drivers on the 10 most common driving errors that lead to deaths and injuries.
    Hi 'o Silver away

  14. #14
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patc
    I think your plan is needlessly complex. We need to:

    1) Raise the bar for driving testing (say require 90% on written test, and NO significant errors on road test)
    2) Re-test drivers every 5 years, and after ANY accident
    3) ENFORCE traffic laws
    4) Remove licenses for any dangerous driving. A DUI, an accident in which you are at fault, etc. should all be an automatic loss of license until a driver can show he/she is competent

    Driving is a very dangerous activity, yet almost all negligence is excused.
    Agree with last statement totally. The idea of retesting after any accident is a great idea. But higher skills on written test???

    Would knowing every rule of golf make you a better golfer?
    Would knowing each detail of NASCAR rules make you a new Petty?

    It not head knowledge only. It's also practice and practice handling this particular vehicle. For example, anyone in snow country who doesn't practice each and every season regaining control after going into a slide, will not be ready when the panic situation occurs.
    Hi 'o Silver away

  15. #15
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
    Agree with last statement totally. The idea of retesting after any accident is a great idea. But higher skills on written test???
    Yes, higher skills on a written test. How often do we hear, here on BF.net, that a cyclist met a person who doesn't know that bikes are allowed on the roads? How often have you met someone mis-informed about traffic law? How much ignorance will you allow before you consider someone too ignorant to use the roads?

    Is it OK with you if they are ignorant of 1 out of every ten rules? 2 out of every ten? 3 out of every 10? That what a 70% score would mean - that a person is ignorant of 30% - nearly 1/3 - off all rules of the road that have been tested on! Completely unacceptable.

    Personally, I would require
    - a good knowledge of the entire Highway Traffic Act (say, 70% score)
    - a near perfect knowledge of the parts relevant to the type of vehicle you will be licensed for (say 90%)
    - a perfect score on some key basic questions (a "Max 60km/hr sign means.....)


    Quote Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
    It not head knowledge only. It's also practice and practice handling this particular vehicle. For example, anyone in snow country who doesn't practice each and every season regaining control after going into a slide, will not be ready when the panic situation occurs.
    I did not say it was "head knowledge" only. The rules of the road are the first step (in most places) in acquiring the privilege of operating a motor vehicle. Here in Ontario, for example, you must pass your written test first, before you can get a learner's permit. If someone does not understand the basic rules of the road, why would be ever consider letting them proceed?

  16. #16
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patc
    Yes, higher skills on a written test. How often do we hear, here on BF.net, that a cyclist met a person who doesn't know that bikes are allowed on the roads? How often have you met someone mis-informed about traffic law? How much ignorance will you allow before you consider someone too ignorant to use the roads?
    ...
    Personally, I would require
    - a good knowledge of the entire Highway Traffic Act (say, 70% score)
    Actually I wasn't considering this as a part of my plan, but I kind of agree with you. However I think the standard should be 85%, they may forget over time and fall to 70%. but 85% is a better hurdle.
    Hi 'o Silver away

  17. #17
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
    Actually I wasn't considering this as a part of my plan, but I kind of agree with you. However I think the standard should be 85%, they may forget over time and fall to 70%. but 85% is a better hurdle.
    I was keeping in mind there that much of the HTA is irrelevant to most people... for example, motorists do not really need to know lighting requirements for bikes, or the sections regarding public garages, for example. Hence why I broke it down:

    - a good knowledge of the entire Highway Traffic Act (say, 70% score)
    - a near perfect knowledge of the parts relevant to the type of vehicle you will be licensed for (say 90%)
    - a perfect score on some key basic questions (a "Max 60km/hr sign means.....)

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