Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-03-06, 06:24 PM   #1
PM7771
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plymouth, MA
Bikes: Trek 820 mtb, DeVinci Podium
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No pain No gain - Truth or fiction?

My biking friend who I have the utmost in respect claims that unless a cyclist pushes hard on a ride - to the point of finishing a ride with some level of fatigue or muscular soreness - that you aren't getting the benefit of building muscles. Thats how I understand him.

My logic would have it though that I can still derive benefit from a "casual" ride.

btw I've done 1700 miles since last May '05 on a Trek 820 ( steel ) mtb - mostly road riding on slicks - and just got a Devinci Podium road bike, Shimano 105 with Shimano wheels. Getting used to the new light ride, which is of course faster and easier ! yes, less exercise so I guess I go longer & faster to make up!

My quick rides b4 or after dinner are 11 miles; and a couple times a week I get in 20-30 mi which really have gotten me to be an endorphin addict

Peter
PM7771 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-06, 06:39 PM   #2
CRUM
Recovering Retro-grouch
 
CRUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Some call it God's country. I call it Acton, Maine
Bikes: Too Many - 7 or 8
Posts: 5,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM7771
My biking friend who I have the utmost in respect claims that unless a cyclist pushes hard on a ride - to the point of finishing a ride with some level of fatigue or muscular soreness - that you aren't getting the benefit of building muscles. Thats how I understand him.

My logic would have it though that I can still derive benefit from a "casual" ride.

btw I've done 1700 miles since last May '05 on a Trek 820 ( steel ) mtb - mostly road riding on slicks - and just got a Devinci Podium road bike, Shimano 105 with Shimano wheels. Getting used to the new light ride, which is of course faster and easier ! yes, less exercise so I guess I go longer & faster to make up!

My quick rides b4 or after dinner are 11 miles; and a couple times a week I get in 20-30 mi which really have gotten me to be an endorphin addict

Peter
Maybe pain and soreness is needed to acheive muscular fitness, but riding is used by many for other reasons. Mental fitness or stress relief is my major goal. I ride because it makes me feel better. When I have to purge the demons of a bad week, I often ride like I am angry and push hard. At other times, I ride and rubberneck. Above all I ride to help that big stupid muscle in my head.
__________________
Keep it 'tween the ditches

My Blog - Lost in the Bo Zone
CRUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-06, 08:00 PM   #3
Nightshade
Humvee of bikes =Worksman
 
Nightshade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 5,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM7771
My biking friend who I have the utmost in respect claims that unless a cyclist pushes hard on a ride - to the point of finishing a ride with some level of fatigue or muscular soreness - that you aren't getting the benefit of building muscles. Thats how I understand him.
I get a real buzz out of "jocks" who kid themselves that the "pain" is a good thing.

What a load of horse poop......

Pain is the bodies warning system that must not be tested as much as jocks think they have to. Jocks
wind up in older age with bad knees,backs,hips,shoulders, etc. that cause them pain all the time.
This is a good thing???????????

Serves the idiots right to be in pain all the time just so they can claim some phantom "gain". Even the
Gladiators of Rome knew that there was an end to this kind of pain.......in death......and nowhere else.

Any healthy human can gain from steady sane excercise in a low impact way without blowing a
gasket doing it. Slow, steady, simple & consistent are the keys to good cardio and muscle workout.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
Nightshade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-06, 09:56 PM   #4
DataJunkie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 14,280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm a jock?
There is good pain and bad pain. If you do not know the difference then who am I to educate you

I love the feeling of cresting a long climb with my legs and lungs burning. Then there are the sharp stabbing pains....ugh

I usually see my largest improvements from when I push hard. However, nice and easy weeks are a good thing. Heck, I took a nice fun 60 mile ride yesterday and spent 40 miles of it pedaling at a nice slow pace.
To each his\her own.
DataJunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-06, 10:09 PM   #5
efrobert
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 
efrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere in Colorado.
Bikes:
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You have to push yourself to improve. I see alot of people in the gym and on the bike paths who are pretty much wasting their time. If your not getting your heart rate up to a certain level when doing cardio, or no lifting enough to break the muscle down, your kidding youself, and wasting time, if getting in shape and building muscle is your goal.
efrobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 11:21 AM   #6
ken cummings
Senior Member
 
ken cummings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: northern California
Bikes: Bruce Gordon BLT, Cannondale parts bike, Ecodyne recumbent trike, Counterpoint Opus 2, miyata 1000
Posts: 5,601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Depends on what you want out of cycling. A complete book on training, even a coach for the hard core. Some fatigue 2 or 3 days a week for quicker speed/aerobic improvement spaced with adequate rest. I still like Eddy Meryx's quote, "Ride Lots."
ken cummings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 11:40 AM   #7
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by efrobert
You have to push yourself to improve. I see alot of people in the gym and on the bike paths who are pretty much wasting their time. If your not getting your heart rate up to a certain level when doing cardio, or no lifting enough to break the muscle down, your kidding youself, and wasting time, if getting in shape and building muscle is your goal.
You're joking right? Even cycling at low intensity helps. People don't need to be cycling just to go at TimeTrial speed.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 12:16 PM   #8
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Suffering and aching is fine... but pain... especially sharp stinging pain is not a good thing. For optimum fitness improvement, you have to incorporate a lot of different workouts, not on the same day:

REST: easy day off completely, or a really easy ride
ENDURANCE: long steady-state ride to develop energy-delivery, fat-burning
TEMPO: aerobic workout close to LT to develop heart & lungs
INTERVALS: on flats, hills, short/long, timed-sets or pyramids to develop muscular-strength & efficiency
SPRINTS: all out 100% efforts, no holding back.

There are only a few times when you're gonna be "hurting". If you are in pain every single ride, that's way, way too much and you'll end up overtrained and fatigued. A lot of people get stuck in the middle of no-mans-land in training where they're not getting enough rest and not doing enough miles, and at the same time, they're not going hard enough. So a lot of times, you have to slow down and do real endurance rides (3-4 hours) and on another day of the week, do sprints and intervals and keep the mileage really short, like 1-1.5 hours max. There's no one "right" answer as far as pain goes...

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 09-04-06 at 08:20 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 01:31 PM   #9
oilfreeandhappy
Senior Member
 
oilfreeandhappy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Bikes: Shasta Kiliminjaro, Optima Dragon Recumbent
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I overdid it 2 weeks ago. I didn't have much choice. I lost my first seven gears in the mountains, so I had to climb the passes in 8-10. I was pushing the legs, while flexing the ankles, and pulling hard. These small muscles were extremely sore later. Other than my 8-mile commute all week, I did no other riding. This was not a "good" pain. By alternating massage and icing the areas, I'm back to functional.
__________________
Jim
Make a BOLD Statement While Cycling!
oilfreeandhappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 09:23 PM   #10
ericgu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM7771
My biking friend who I have the utmost in respect claims that unless a cyclist pushes hard on a ride - to the point of finishing a ride with some level of fatigue or muscular soreness - that you aren't getting the benefit of building muscles. Thats how I understand him.

My logic would have it though that I can still derive benefit from a "casual" ride.

btw I've done 1700 miles since last May '05 on a Trek 820 ( steel ) mtb - mostly road riding on slicks - and just got a Devinci Podium road bike, Shimano 105 with Shimano wheels. Getting used to the new light ride, which is of course faster and easier ! yes, less exercise so I guess I go longer & faster to make up!

My quick rides b4 or after dinner are 11 miles; and a couple times a week I get in 20-30 mi which really have gotten me to be an endorphin addict

Peter
Depends on what you're trying to do.

If you're working on base aerobic capacity, you need base miles, which mean you can't ride too hard.

If you're doing speed work to get faster, you will need to be working hard during the intervals and lightly between.

If you're working on climbing or muscle strength, you'll need to tax your muscles.
__________________
Eric

2005 Trek 5.2 Madone, Red with Yellow Flames (Beauty)
199x Lemond Tourmalet, Yellow with fenders (Beast)

Read my cycling blog at http://riderx.info/blogs/riderx
Like climbing? Goto http://www.bicycleclimbs.com
ericgu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-06, 09:55 PM   #11
mac
They see me rollin'
 
mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes: 2005 Cannondale T2000
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Regarding those dumb-jock comments, it seems like you've never worked out before. When you lift weights, you are actually creating micro-tears in your muscles which heal (stronger) while you rest & recover. As you progress in your training, you better understand your body on what is good "pain" (i.e. soreness), vs. injury "pain." Your body will never advance to the next level if you don't push yourself to the limit.
mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 07:28 AM   #12
Michigander
Senior Member
 
Michigander's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes: Giant ATX 1200, Schwinn Peleton
Posts: 1,724
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
In my experience, exersize need not be painful. Hard and exausting perhaps, but truly painful no.
__________________
Bring back the Sig Test!


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Michigander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 07:38 AM   #13
iNewton
Senior Member
 
iNewton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Baie-Comeau, Québec
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix Comp '06
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Riding slow is fine if you never want to go any faster, I for one am on a quest for constant speed improvments so always push myself.

To each their own though, you will get the urge to go faster eventually.
iNewton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 07:59 AM   #14
FarHorizon
Senior Curmudgeon
 
FarHorizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Bikes: Varies by day
Posts: 3,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Cardio benefits come on a continuous scale, although there is a "break point" where you derive MUCH more benefit from the work you do. Read the book "Aerobics" for details.

To answer the OP's specific question, one DOES derive benefit (both aerobic and muscular) from even mild exercise. One also gains MORE benefit from harder exercise.
__________________
Nishiki road bike, Raleigh road bike, Electra Cruiser Lux 7d, Electra Townie 3i, Electra Townie 1, Whatever I find today!
FarHorizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 08:59 AM   #15
Denny Koll
Senior Member
 
Denny Koll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To push yourself to the next level you can't be afraid to feel some pain.

Now, if you are a newbie or just someone who likes to relax you can't really do this. You have to be a conditioned athlete to be able to push yourself, I think this is where some of the confusion comes in. If someone is used to going 15 mph on the bike path and they want to stay there ...fine. Or if you don't workout regularly pushing yourself too hard too soon is a recipe for disaster.

Some of us want to push ourselves and we have enough physical conditioning and knowledge of our bodies to do so. To me it's a blast to be pushing hard feeling anaerocic discomfort, burning muscles etc. It makes a huge difference in expanding your window of conditioning.
Denny Koll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 10:16 AM   #16
krazygluon
Mad scientist w/a wrench
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chucktown
Bikes: none working atm
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I kinda separate burning and aching (muscle pain that is)

burning generally seems to be good. I feel a good burn in my legs at the tops of hills and after other cases where I push fairly hard. within oh, half an hour or less after getting off the bike, the burn is gone. I'd guess the burn is just a little lactic acid buildup, and if its considered hard to bear pain, is something that every athlete needs to contend with.

aching on the other hand, I don't consider to be good. this is the kind of pain that if you push it will become that sore for a few days, need to put on icy hot and take some ibuprofin kind of pain. I ached a little bit after converting to clipless, and i feel the twinges of an ache right before I throttle down on part of my daily commute. this I think is when your connective tissue starts telling you its done as much as it can, or when you reach a critical buildup of lactic acid...just a guess.
krazygluon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 10:44 AM   #17
xlntRider79
crushing all limitations
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can debate weather pain is good or no good for muscles and joints all day long, but pain also brings another intangible gain: mental toughness, which can change the body's perception of what its limitations really are. When you're used to the pain, you can push yourself to the threshold (and stay there) more easily.
xlntRider79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 10:45 AM   #18
recursive
Geosynchronous Falconeer
 
recursive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Posts: 6,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazygluon
I kinda separate burning and aching (muscle pain that is)

burning generally seems to be good. I feel a good burn in my legs at the tops of hills and after other cases where I push fairly hard. within oh, half an hour or less after getting off the bike, the burn is gone. I'd guess the burn is just a little lactic acid buildup, and if its considered hard to bear pain, is something that every athlete needs to contend with.

aching on the other hand, I don't consider to be good. this is the kind of pain that if you push it will become that sore for a few days, need to put on icy hot and take some ibuprofin kind of pain. I ached a little bit after converting to clipless, and i feel the twinges of an ache right before I throttle down on part of my daily commute. this I think is when your connective tissue starts telling you its done as much as it can, or when you reach a critical buildup of lactic acid...just a guess.
I actually enjoy the aching. Maybe I'm twisted, but I find it an enjoyable sensation. I've got a nice case of it going right now actually.
__________________
Bring the pain.
recursive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 10:55 AM   #19
CRUM
Recovering Retro-grouch
 
CRUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Some call it God's country. I call it Acton, Maine
Bikes: Too Many - 7 or 8
Posts: 5,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by recursive
I actually enjoy the aching. Maybe I'm twisted, but I find it an enjoyable sensation. I've got a nice case of it going right now actually.
No you aren't unless I am too. I enjoy the "Burn" from a hard effort. The aches I wake up with the next day remind me of the ride I enjoyed 24 hours earlier. What I don't enjoy is the pain I have right now. I ripped my knee up doing a stupid technical move obviously beyond my ability to pull off. I also wasted a good helmet. It's sacrifice though insured my ability to sit and write meaningless dribble to folks far away. Pain, it's all relative.
__________________
Keep it 'tween the ditches

My Blog - Lost in the Bo Zone
CRUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 01:01 PM   #20
Nightshade
Humvee of bikes =Worksman
 
Nightshade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 5,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac


Regarding those dumb-jock comments, it seems like you've never worked out before. When you lift weights, you are actually creating micro-tears in your muscles which heal (stronger) while you rest & recover. As you progress in your training, you better understand your body on what is good "pain" (i.e. soreness), vs. injury "pain." Your body will never advance to the next level if you don't push yourself to the limit.
I will forward to you the names of a few really good Othropedic doctors to repair your worn out
joints along with the name of a few discount medical equipment providers for canes , wheelchairs,
and walkers if you'd like me to.

Having been there I can tell you soldiers must learn to ignore pain to survive but they NEVER seek
pain out like jocks do.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
Nightshade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 01:17 PM   #21
Nermal
Senior Member
 
Nermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Farmington, NM
Bikes: Giant Cypress SX
Posts: 2,090
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM7771
My biking friend who I have the utmost in respect claims that unless a cyclist pushes hard on a ride - to the point of finishing a ride with some level of fatigue or muscular soreness - that you aren't getting the benefit of building muscles. Thats how I understand him. . .
Peter
One thing in here is worrisome, to me at least. That "muscular soreness" when finishing a ride. Muscular fatigue, yes. Soreness the next day, okay, but soreness at the end of the ride would tell me I should have been backing off alot sooner.
__________________
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
Nermal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 03:49 PM   #22
PM7771
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plymouth, MA
Bikes: Trek 820 mtb, DeVinci Podium
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey guys - this has been a wonderful post for many great answers, that all relate to what a cycler wants to put in & get out of their ride.

But I'll single out ericqu for coming up with a simple view to cover all the bases (?)

"Depends on what you're trying to do.

If you're working on base aerobic capacity, you need base miles, which mean you can't ride too hard.

If you're doing speed work to get faster, you will need to be working hard during the intervals and lightly between.

If you're working on climbing or muscle strength, you'll need to tax your muscles."


This makes alot of sense to me. Some rides I'm out enjoying the scenery and just rolling along loving life, and other rides ( like the one I just came back from ) I'm going as fast as I can, without that burning sensation in my legs. This gives me a sense of the different results riders are seeking.

Peter
PM7771 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 07:03 PM   #23
Flak
Flatland hack
 
Flak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nowhere near the mountains :/
Bikes:
Posts: 3,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The problem with this thread is we dont have a uniform definition of "pain".

Pain is bad yes. That said, i woudlnt consider burning legs on a long climb pain, nor would i consider the ache the next day after a hard workout pain.

They are very different feelings to pain in my book. Pain tells me something is wrong, burn and ache tells me im at my limit, but still ok.
__________________
My shop - www.spinbikeshop.com
My team - www.teampanther.com
Flak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-06, 07:12 PM   #24
Nermal
Senior Member
 
Nermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Farmington, NM
Bikes: Giant Cypress SX
Posts: 2,090
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
My feelings, exactly, Flak.
__________________
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
Nermal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-06, 09:48 AM   #25
Nightshade
Humvee of bikes =Worksman
 
Nightshade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 5,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flak
The problem with this thread is we dont have a uniform definition of "pain".
Yes, I agree that we should clarify "pain".

To me "pain" says "Stop! injury is here or near" where "discomfort" says "Easy mate, back off a bit".

Those who push to the point of discomfort will gain where those who push to the point of pain damage
the body in time. (Lets' not forget that everyone has a different pain threshold)

That sound about right folk's???
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
Nightshade is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:41 AM.