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Old 10-14-06, 07:17 PM   #1
phantomcow2
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Has anybody here gotten their cassettes carbide coated?

I was just thinking, has anybody here ever thought about carbide coating their cassettes? I use carbide coated end mills and they last much longer than regular High speed steel, I would think this would increase the life of a cassette many times over.
Aside from what I think would make this last the cassette I would ever buy...
It would look very cool!
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Old 10-14-06, 08:37 PM   #2
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It probably is cheaper to keep buying casettes. Also the carbide may be too brittle for that application.
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Old 10-14-06, 09:07 PM   #3
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It seems that if carbide is tough enough for drill bits, it would be tough enough for cassettes. I suspect (though I really don't know) that cost may be a factor? That may even be iffy, because carbide-tipped tools are dirt cheap!

For both light weight and wear resistance, it would seem that a titanium cassette with carbide coating on the teeth couldn't be beat.

Another option for wear resistance might be to use an internally geared hub with a fully-enclosed belt drive!
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Old 10-14-06, 09:10 PM   #4
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The carbide should not cause issues being brittle, because it is only a coating. I believe these coatings are only a few microns thick. For some cassettes, I am sure it is cheaper to just buy new ones. But if you have a Dura ace or Campy Record cassette, those are pretty high replacement costs. I am going to inquire at work next week about costs.
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Old 10-14-06, 09:22 PM   #5
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Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.

Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
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Old 10-15-06, 07:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomcow2
...pretty high replacement costs. I am going to inquire at work next week about costs.
Keep us posted!
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Old 10-15-06, 08:13 AM   #7
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Hard chrome plating will make your sprockets wear almost
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
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Old 10-15-06, 08:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken cummings
Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.

Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
I think tungsten carbide would suffice . Doesn't electroplating reduce friction? We get stuff electroplated at work once a week.
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Old 10-15-06, 08:25 AM   #9
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Even simpler techniques can be done. Shot-peening and nitriding is used all the time in the hot-rod auto markets. Plenty of shops around that can do that kind of work. Parts treated typically last 2-x as long.
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Old 10-15-06, 08:28 AM   #10
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Even simpler techniques can be done. Shot-peening and nitriding is used all the time in the hot-rod auto markets. Plenty of shops around that can do that kind of work. Parts treated typically last 2-x as long.
Do you mean TiN or TiAlN coatings? I know that is possible, but I really like the carbide gray.
If getting the carbide is not cost effective, I might just get another coating
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Old 10-15-06, 08:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomcow2
Do you mean TiN or TiAlN coatings? I know that is possible, but I really like the carbide gray.
If getting the carbide is not cost effective, I might just get another coating
No, nitriding is not a coating, it's more of an embedding into and hardening the surface of the metal itself. Commonly used with 4130, 4140, 4150, 4340 chromoly alloys. The steel is baked in an nitrogen/ammonia atmosphere and as it's cooled slowly, the nitrogen is absorbed into the steel. A plasma ion-impregnating jet can also be used. This ends up forming a very hard and tough wear-resistant surface. It's been used on racecar parts like cams, valves, rods, etc. for close to a century. On cams, they typically see a 8-10x increase in lifespan!

ASM International - An Introduction to Nitriding (pdf)

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Old 10-15-06, 09:30 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tightwad
Hard chrome plating will make your sprockets wear almost
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
It helps. Many say that the 9 speed Ultegra cassettes last well. They are chrome plated, chrome moly steel. All of the cogs. But it's not an incredible difference. But that combination is probably the best. They might outlast the DA cogset with the 3 large cogs made from titanium with the smaller ones being nickel plated. Shimano does not list what the Ti alloy is. The DA chainrings are nickel plated.
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Old 10-15-06, 12:14 PM   #13
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I was going to mention the nitriding, but wonder is warpage from the heat would be a factor.
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Old 10-15-06, 12:46 PM   #14
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Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
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Old 10-15-06, 12:56 PM   #15
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Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.

Well that is why I would get them coated. End mills (used to shape material into desired product) are often carbide coated. If carbide or one of the nitrides coating can last for machine tools, I am certain it will last for the life of the bicycle.
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Old 10-15-06, 01:25 PM   #16
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Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
It's difficult to coat a soft metal like aluminium with a hard surface-layer. Because that coating will end up cracking easier to due having little support underneath.

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Old 10-15-06, 04:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stapfam
Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
See my last post. Lots of plated Casettes and chainrings have been coming from Shimano that way for years.

Quote:
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It's difficult to coat a soft metal like aluminium with a surface-layer. Because that coating will end up cracking easier to due having little support underneath.
See my last post about nickel plated aluminum chainrings and Chrome plated cassettes from Shimano.
I can take a picture of the Shimano book with my camera and post it if you need it. This is old stuff.
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Old 10-15-06, 06:30 PM   #18
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Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.
Yup, diamond coating is where its at.....ride the bike by day....cut granite tiles by night
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Old 10-15-06, 06:46 PM   #19
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for alumiumn chainrings you can have them hard anodized
coating your sprockets, if the sprocket is harder than the chain, wouldnt that wear the chain out faster???
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Old 10-15-06, 06:57 PM   #20
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Carbide coating? Is that what they did to Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back? How do you get your cassette back from Jabba once it is coated?
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Old 10-15-06, 08:07 PM   #21
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Aluminium forms its own layer, you can force it to get thicker and end up with essentially a form of sapphire on the surface.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.

Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
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Old 10-15-06, 10:46 PM   #22
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Aluminium forms its own layer, you can force it to get thicker and end up with essentially a form of sapphire on the surface.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.

Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
All he needs is to cut off the outside diameter of some steel cogs and have stellite welded on the edge and then remachine the teeth back in. You could probably get that done for only a few hundred per cog.
Maybe the price of 6 Ultegra cassettes for each single cog. What a deal !
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Old 10-18-06, 03:05 PM   #23
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PhantomCow2, if you've got the dough, this cassette is for you.



titanium nitride, less weight, greater wear reisistance, cool color.
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Old 10-18-06, 04:13 PM   #24
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Oh man, how much is that? 300?
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Old 10-18-06, 09:37 PM   #25
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$700. They also have one that's TiAIN coated, even harder.
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