atomship47

i'm taking a step back in the search for my next bike to re-evaluate my "wants"

why do some many mfr's mix quality components with questionable (or debatable) components on their bikes**********?

i realize marketing plays into this. i guess its also to compete at different pricepoints.

i decided to try and find at which makes/models have solid components top to bottom in the $2k and under range. one caveat, i looked only at brands that have a reputable dealer near me. also, some listed at over $2k but i've seen them on sale at or below that price.

here's what i came up with;

c'dale synapse1 alloy and 3 carbon
trek pilot 2.1 and 5.0 (sort of, i'm not so sure about bontrager select wheelsets)
scott cr1 team and s20 speedster
bianchi 1885 veloce
giant ocr c3 a0 and a1
specialized tricross comp

ALL of the other comparable bikes to these that i looked at, had a mix quality/questionable components. i also looked at cross bikes. for example, i don't think the fsa megaexo is the right bb for me. i've read that, in general, people feel it performs nicely, but isn't the best choice for someone who rides "a lot"


[i'm not trying to start a debate on what is "questionable" i'm just going by what i've heard/read in general terms from other riders]

atomship47

another question;

i noticed c'dale mixes sram/shimano components on their hybrids and comfort bikes. why is that? is it just for the obvious reason of attracting both sram and shimano devotees?

spinnaker

I think the obvious reason is cost.

I don't know much about Scott but I really doubt the other manufacturers would place "questionable" components on their bikes.

If you really want to pick what you want on the bike then you can simply buy a frame and select the components that you want.

atomship47

i'm grouping fsa mega exo, shimano 500, and bontrager select in the "questionable" category. again, not trying to stir up a debate. i'm just wondering why, for example, a "105" level bike doesn't have 105 components throughout. instead, sometimes you see an upgrade to the rd and a down grade to the not-so-obvious components like crankset, bb, hub, etc.

the models i listed essentially have the same "level" of components throughout. if a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, is a bike only as good as its weakest component?

supcom

Manufacturers do their market research to determine what components are highest on the target consumer's priority list for the particular type of bike. For example, they may find that the most desired components on a certain bike are to have Ultegra shifters and rear derailleur, a carbon fork, and oversize bars. So, the manufacturer puts good quality components on the bike in this area. But, to maximize profits, they put on generic stem, seatpost, and pedals. They may also put on a 105 front derailler. "hidden" components like headsets, BBs, hubs, etc. are prime candidates for cost cutting.

If you want a particular bike, but are not happy with some of the components, perhaps your LBS will work with you to swap out some key items for the difference in cost.

Little Darwin

From what I have read in other threads, and it makes sense...

The manufacturers construct to cost points, and choose the higher level components where they make the most difference.

For example, there is little to debate that if you can only afford to upgrade a rear derailleur or a front derailleur that your most bang for the buck is the rear derailleur... So, in order to give the best possible performance at the price point a manufacturer may skimp on the FD.

This makes sense since I have never seen a standard manufacturer's build where the FD spec was higher level than the RD. Usueally the RD is the same level or one higher than the FD.

The rest is just a balancing act because just as with you, a bicycle buyer usually starts with a budget, and finds the best bike for that budget... If one manufacturer has full 105 with an Ultegra RD by skimping on the wheels, it may sell better than full 105 with slightly better wheels... Or the inverse...

So, in short, yes it is all marketing.

slowandsteady

Exactly!

seriouslysilly

I was thinking the same thing when I picked up an '05 Jamis Eclipse.
It had all 105 components with the exception of the crank & bb.
I searched for reviews regarding the crank & bb and most users were unhappy with it.

I promptly decided to swap it out with Ultegra BB and cranks to sell the stock on eBay unused.

stapfam

One of the aspects I look at in a "Cheap" bike is the frame. If it is cheap enough (With the frame being good enough to keep) then I realise that as the parts wear out- I can replace them with parts that I want. Then you can have the "Cheap" Frame appearing on the same model upgraded to better parts and what is it you look at? The gearchangers and the rear derailler. So the common upgrade for the manufacturer is rear derailler and Gearchangers. What annoys me is when you get a bike listed (Sorry MTB SPecs.) as Xt spec and you get a cheap crankset and wheels. And as to the Seatpost- bars- seat-ETC.- Don't bother looking.

Going back Many years as even this Manufacturer has followed the rest- But If you Bought a Kona 10 years ago and it was listed as XT spec- Then it was XT groupset throughout. Wheel hubs- Crankset- Rear Cassette- Was all XT then the seat post was superb and saddle not bad. The part I did not like about that bike was the Bar stem and I still have it in the shed as it was the first and only item I had to replace as Rubbish.

atomship47

that's what i assumed....a marketing trick. hell, the z35 has a 105 fd and a dura-ace rd. i'd be willing to swap the dura-ace rd for a 105 if that's what it took to get better quality components overall.

i've made my decision, sort of....

i'm going to see if the lbs will swap out the crankset/bb for a shimano 105. the difference in price on performancebike.com is only $10.

the wh500 wheelset on probikekit.com is on sale for $100. shimano ultegra wheels with mavic open pro rims are $225 on perfbike.com

i'm not sure which fsa headset is on the bike. best that i can tell, they range from $32 - $50 online. i think i'd prefer a ritchey or cane creek headset based upon brand name alone. would a ricthey fuzzy logic pro fit a 1 1/8" road bike head tube?

msrp for the bike is $1999. i think i'll offer to pay msrp if the lbs swaps out for the above parts. does that sound reasonable?



if the lbs says no (which i have a feeling they will - they wanted to charge me $200 to swap wheelsets for 105), then i'm going to try out the bikes i listed in my o.p. (starting with the ocr a1 and scott speedsters) and go with the one that feels best. i may add orbea to the list as well.


thank you all for the info.

seely

Its really an issue of cost and marketing. There are places where manufacturers can stick components that are maybe a bit subpar and bring the cost down, but at the same time they are parts that the consumer generally doesn't notice or ask about. Thats why you see bikes with 105 front/Ultegra or DA rear derailleurs. EVERYONE wants to know what the derailleurs are. I've NEVER been asked what kind of BB comes on a bike.

atomship47

being a noob, i think anything higher than 105 (or maybe even tiagra) would be "lost" on me so i can't justify the cost.

so does a d/a rear derailleur only perform as well as its 105 front derailleur?




i'm a clyde and have worn out 2 different bb's in a year....bb's and the wheelsets are the 1st 2 things i ask about!

cyccommute 

In some cases the lesser quality component is really the superior component. Speciffically, front derailers. The Ultegra front derailer is light and crisp but it's a bugger to set up for a triple. The Tiagra, on the other hand, is a little heavier and just as crisp but it's much better for using with a triple. The difference is that the Tiagra is wider and doesn't have the rubbing issues.

I've found the same issues with mountain bike derailers. XTR is very fussy. XT is better and Deore is a dream.

seely

Front derailleurs are a moot point in my book, they all slap the chain one direction or the other. Rear derailleurs are something people ALWAYS ask about and generally think makes a big difference. How good does it sound to say the bike comes with an Ultegra/DA rear derailleur?

slowandsteady

It isn't an evil plot or even a trick so much as giving the majority of people what they want. In other words if having top of the line BB, headsets, bar tape, spokes, and tubes sold bikes, that is exactly what they would put on them.

cyccommute 

Get out your caliper and measure them. There's a difference and it's not in the direction you'd expect.

stapfam

I still have the front Deraiiler fitted to my bianchi that was fitted to it when I bought the bike 6 years ago. Virtually every part of the bike has been replaced except the frame and seat and bar stem but that original Cheap nasty acera Front derrailler does eactly what it is supposed to do. Now on the rear derrailler-It started with deore and wore out within a year- too much slop- I replaced that with anXT and it wore out within a year- I replaced it again with an XT and it wore out after just over a year. This Time I managed to get an XTR rear derailler so before the year was up - I bought a replacement derailler to replace the XTR when I serviced the bike. The first XTR is still fitted after 3 years and will do a 4th. The replacement XTR I bought and never fitted went on the Tandem and has done 2 years and will definitely do a third.

BluesDawg

Every bike has a compromise built into it somewhere or another. I look to the parts that I can't or don't want to replace. That means the frame has to be good. Not a good place to cut corners. Wheels, cranks, shifters, derailleurs etc. can either be good enough to keep or you can plan on upgrading and selling the originals (or use on another bike).
In a way, I think it is better for them to go cheap on components I would probably replace anyway, unless they happen to choose the same thing I would. Things like saddles, pedals, handlebars, stems etc. are very personal choices. I'd rather the cost go into the things I want to keep.

Barabaika

Have you ever seen a question here, "Is it a good idea to build a bike myself buying a frame and components?"
Everybody says, "No! An assembled bike is cheaper."

But when you build a bike yourself, you can select every component.
When you buy a bike, you buy some inferior components, too. (They can be technically good, but you would prefer something else.)

cyccommute 

An assembled bike is cheaper. Lots cheaper. I've purchased several bikes in parts and it ain't economical. It's fun but it ain't cheap The last one I paid $1000 for the frame and $1600 for the parts...and those weren't top of the line parts! Would have been cheaper to buy the frame, buy a good road bike, swap parts and throw away the stripped frame.

That could be a lot of fun too

Barabaika

Ok.
The Shimano Dura Ace gruppo costs $1050. You can even select the size of the crankset and the cassette.
Show me a bike that has the full Dura Ace gruppo for "lots cheaper". "Lots cheaper" means $500, doesn't it?

There is no magic--in a cheap bike the manufacturer will put a few Dura Ace components and other "as good" ones and call it "Dura Ace bike". Also, it will have an expensive carbon frame that isn't easy to just throw away.

atomship47

that was my way of thinking when i started looking seriously at the bike. however, when i see cf bikes with basically a full 105 group like the pilot 5.0 or the specialized roubaix for exactly the same price, i have a hard time justifying the bike with the lesser quality components. soo, it then goes back to "is the lbs willing to work with me on price or swapping parts."

M_S

For most people, Tiagra etc will be fine until it wears out. With hard riding that's what, 2 years? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect, say, a tourer doubling as a commuter to keep most of its components for that long. Some stuff obviously wears out faster than other stuff. Replace things one at a time. It spreads out the cost. Eventually you might work your way up to full 105, or whatever it is you want (I'm assuming a commuter doesn't need Dura Ace ). So what the average bike buyer should look for is number one the perfect frame for them, and number two, parts that are just good enough for their immediate needs.

Let's face it--most people don't race, and the number of weekend recreation riders on full Ultegra or whatever is really silly.

I know nothing I've said is original, but gosh, it just makes so much sense

cyccommute 

For that price, the groups I'm seeing are the basic go and stop parts. No wheels, no handle bars, headset, seatpost, saddle, cables, etc. Nor does it include the labor to put all those parts together. Lot's cheaper also doesn't mean half the price. Saving a couple of hundred bucks could be significant.

And I wasn't talking about buy a Dura Ace level bike to strip. I don't ride Dura Ace. The bike I have is mostly 105 or Ultegra level components. A 105 or Ultegra bike would be more economical to purchase and strip. A Pilot 2.1 for example, retails for $1500. All of the drivetrain is 105 except the rear derailer which is Ultegra. Or, since the bike I built was a cross bike, the XO 1 would be a real bargain compared to what I spent. Remember that for each part you buy individually, you have to pay either tax or shipping which work out to be around 7% to 10% of the cost. That adds up pretty quickly.

Yes, there are advantages to specing the parts to your own bike, but I've never found it to be any cheaper, or any better, than a complete bike. I have a mountain bike I've done the whole upgrade thing on and a touring bike that I've changed from an $1100 bike to a $3000 bike. I went a bit crazy on that one!

As for the frame, I said I'd throw it away but in reality, I'd probably find some way of recouping my losses...I'm not quite that dumb

Barabaika

OK. Let's compare.
Pilot 2.1 for $1500, Shimano 105 components.

The full build kit (except for a frame, fork, and pedals) from GVHBikes with Shimano 105 is $865.
https://www.gvhbikes.com/kits.htm
Also, you can select and substitute any component.
Probably, no tax, and shipping is only $15.

So, you buy a bike for $1500, strip it, throw away the frame, and get components that you can buy customized for $865. You lose $635.

Though, when you buy a complete bike, you can easily test ride it, return it. It's better for a novice rider.
That's why not everybody buys books from Amazon. But many people do: cheaper prices and hard-to-find books.