cyclezealot

I have never aspired to be particularily fast. In my club, I am usually paired with the expereinced group but not the hammer heads. Time after time, within my group, after about 20 miles I repeatedly lag behind a couple riders, some of whom may be 25-30 pounds overweight. Soon after the 20 mile point ( normal training ride) we start ascending hills that might be 1200 feet in elevation and at most an 8 % grade for maybe a mile. The rest of the climb is about 5-6%. Even tho I often don't keep up when they go about 17-20 mph on the flats; when I get to the hills, I usually get significtantly ahead of them.
Why on the flats do I lag behind, yet usually overtake them on the hills.? Maybe I just fatique out at about one hour into a ride? They are like 20 pounds heavier than I am . Seems if you take off on the flats, you'd be stronger on the hills. ?I get disgusted that at the mid point of our ride, I just can't seem to keep up. I might get half a mile behind the group, but usually catch up at some minor descent .

Retro Grouch 

It's just different things.

Once you get over about 12mph on the flat, most of your power is consumed overcoming wind resistance. Consequently your aerobic power to frontal area ratio determines how fast you can go. You can improve by either getting stronger or by working on your position on the bike.

In the hills you have to raise your body weight upward. As your speed drops your power to weight ratio determines how fast you can go. You can improve by getting stronger or by reducing the weight load from either the bike or your body.

Fredly00

You have to remember these "guys" that are 25lbs heavier than you
have an advantage, they are constantly carrying that 25lbs every day
so inherently they have stronger legs, so on the flats they push harder
with the same effort, but in the hills they have to battle that extra weight.

Well at least thats how I view it.

rizz

There's also a lot more to group riding them simply power and weight. Are you drafting effectively (i.e., between 6 and 12 inches off the next rider in front of you) and are you allowing gaps when accelerating, decelerating or doing corners? If you allow gaps, you're going to end up with all the wind in your face and you'll have to work twice as hard. 17-20 MPH in a group isn't much at all, really, especially if you aren't pulling.

Banzai

There's a difference between pure power output and power-to-weight ratio. (PWR)

It's likely that these guys, even if overweight, are putting out more gross power than you. A flat road and two spinning wheels are great equalizers of kinetic energy...once up to speed gross and net are close to equal, and weight isn't as much of a factor. If you and a heavier rider were to both stop pedaling on a flat road, you would both cost almost the same distance, as a well maintained and properly inflated bicycle has very little energy loss.

Where you see the advantage of your lower weight is on those hills. While you may be putting out slightly less gross power, you also weigh less, which is probably enough to give you a higher PWR...in other words your net power output is higher when gravity is opposes both of you.

In racing, the best sprinters are often big, strong riders...while climbers are guys who are smaller and may not put out the same peak gross power, but against gravity their PWR gives them a distinct edge.

cyclezealot

all responses make sense. So we are all mostly saying the power output of the heavier riders might very well be greater than mine; but on hills my weight advantage takes over. ? I just always thought climbing hills to require far more effort and would more than offset power output on the flats.
I have been told to get stronger , I need do more sprinting. Maybe they have a more effective pedaling technique. ? Its odd though , because I ride far more than those heavier riders I refered to.

FXjohn

That's nonsense. CZ probably rides just as much as they do or more.

cyclezealot

As I said, i could do lots more to train for speed . Pretty much my only training is riding in the mountains. Plus, my usual 180 mile a week average . But, then some of these riders only ride once a week. I ride 3-5 days . I just hate it , when once, twice a ride they stop for me to play catch up.

cyclezealot

Well, catch up seems to be getting shorter waits for em. Sometimes if the headwinds are not too strong, I even keep up. In fact last year, they had fairly long waits, even atop the climbs. Less so now. Doubt I'll ever be with the hammer heads tho.

Fredly00

Good analogy.

Banzai

As a lighter rider, the wind can actually hurt you a little on a flat, and a lot on a descent.

F=ma.

The heavier rider has more forward inertia than you do...and on a flat to a slightly declined road, equal wind will slow you to a greater degree.

This is offset often by the fact that you can accelerate to "cruising" speed with less energy, but assuming the wind is gusting, and not constant, each individual gust will affect you more before it dies off. The heavier rider will have greater inertia to carry him through the momentary force opposing him.

Again though...at equal power output you will be a superior climber. At less gross power output you will probably still be the superior climber provided your PWR is greater than theirs.

RiPHRaPH

Seems if you take off on the flats, you'd be stronger on the hills. ?I get disgusted that at the mid point of our ride, I just can't seem to keep up. I might get half a mile behind the group, but usually catch up at some minor descent >>>>

why are you taking the flats off? what are these rides like? mostly flat with some inclines? flat with some hills? very hilly? if most of the ride is flat, then get your butt up there.
Seriously, have a more aggressive mentality. If you are always in the back, sitting in then you will get dropped if you aren't a strong rider. Trust me, get to the front, especially before a turn. If you have done your training, then everyone gets tired. But when you are in the back of the train, you've got to wait for a dozen or so guys to react to surges. By the time the second delay gets all the way to the back you have to work extra hard to stay on.
It helps to know the route. If it is the same route, then know where you are having trouble and get up to the front. Sitting in the back is HARDER than pulling towards the front. really.

cyclezealot

Your last sentence is particularily timely advice for me. Guess, in part , I do not always know the route that well, so I am playing tourist. These guys have been riding these routes for years, for me less than one year. The flats are pretty flat, an ocassional 100 foot climb maybe. But, often strong head winds , since our training tour always starts out going west- toward the hills. Some of the easier hill climbs are usually like 1200- 1500 feet over maybe three miles.

slyjackson

True. Normally when I am by myself on the route I rode yesterday with the club, on the flats I run 18-20 mph, sometime even less. With the club yesterday on the same stretch in a pace line I ran 22-24 mph and I was on the hoods, not even in the drops. I was amazed and it felt like I was just crusing along, I was'nt really appying that much effort either, at least not the same amount that I use when I am alone. I was spending a lot of time hitting the brakes to actually slow down to keep from running over the guy in front of me.

Fredly00

You could always just draft the fatties on the flats... I'm sure they punch a good hole in the wind..
although the eddies could be tough

merlinextraligh

speed on flat terrain is a function of power to frontal surface ratio.

Speed on climbs is a function of power to weight ratio.

Being heavier doesn't give you a proportionately larger surface volume.

Hence the bigger guys who drop you on the flats have a better power to frontal surface ratio.

You however, have a better power to weight ratio, than they do and drop them on climbs.

Portis

The thing that seems odd out of all of this advice, is that little info is known about rider conditioning. I have been told that riders with lots of base miles tend to be better climbers. What about the possiblity that the OP climbs better becaue he has more miles under his wheels?

merlinextraligh

To put the above into math take 2 riders Rider A weighs 130lb, and produces 225 watts at his functional threshold. Rider B weighs 200lbs, and produces 300 watts at his functional threshold. On the flats, Rider A is good for 23mph, but Rider B can go almost 24, because he has more absolute power, and only slightly more frontal area.

But Rider A has a power to weight ratio of 3.8w/kg, and Rider B only has a power to weight ratio of 3.3w/kg. So on an 8% climb Rider A can sustain 8.2mph, while Rider B can only sustain 7.5mph.

This phenomena explains why I, as a big, relatively powerful rider can time trial reasonably well, and be a threat in flat races, but suffer on climbs.

merlinextraligh

Those same miles would help him on the flats.

edzo

I am not fat but I get dusted on the flats, then drop peeps on the climbs. everyone has a specialty. to get better on the flats, you have to ride the flats do not ride hills...and aiming into the wind is good.

on the climbs I can sit up a bit more than a full tuck and more muscles come into play...back is engaged and my nervous system knows how to fire correctly and also pump wastes out of the muscles. on the flats i simply need more hours in that position to train my muscles and nervous system how to ride faster



in summary, ride a whole lot...it fixes everything

Banzai

That's what I was saying! I just didn't have numbers.

stapfam

In my group I am the "Slow" rider. Last on the flats- Not too bad on the sprints and just mediocre up the hills. That is for 11 months of the year. I train for one very hard ride each year and that involves lots of riding up tough hills and lots of gym training. I know I am fit enough for this ride- When I win all the sprints- Can stay with the fast boys on the flat bits but just put a wheel in front when I want to and when up the hills- I get the fast climbers Huffing and puffing just in front of me- till the last 20yards. Then I leave then standing, Or sitting as they can't get out of the saddle.

I can tell you that the training is hard and lasts for 6 months in my case- I do the ride- and then settle into the kind of riding I enjoy- till the 6 months before next years event. You want to get fit- Train- and train- and train and when you have had enough- Train some more. Not very enjoyable though.

Bob Ross

It's one of the big mysteries of cycling... either that or it's one of the big Achilles' heels of OCP posers. Guys who can ride really fast on expensive bikes wearing fancy team kit can NOT always climb well. I'm always surprised when I see it. And yet I see it time & time again.

DannoXYZ 

There's two different measurement metrics here. On the flats, it's power-to-aerodynamics that play a role. While in the hills, it's power-to-weight ratio.

So on the flats, if you're a 60kg guy trying to hang with 70kg guys, you're at a disadvantage because the aero-drag of both is very similar. The bigger guys will have more power to cut through the wind for not much more drag. What you can focus on is drafting behind them closely and consistently enough to make up for the power differences.

Then on the hills at lower speeds where aero-drag isn't a factor, your lighter weight helps because lung-capacity and oxygen delivery is more similar than weight. Two 175cm tall riders will have similar size lungs and aerobic capacity while their weights may differ much more. Thus on the hills, you may be able to generate similar work ability (force X distance). But due to lighter weight, similar force allows you to push lighter weight over larger distances in identical time-frames. Thus, you're able to climb faster than them.

It's basic physics, people get the equations mixed up. Hills is a work-related equation, while flats are an aero issue requiring 2nd-order power equation. For example, to go twice as fast up a hill, you need 2x the power (assuming you're still not going so fast that aero-drag comes into play say.. 6mph->12mph). However, to go twice as fast on the flats will require 8x the power, like 20->40mph.