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Old 11-15-03, 10:04 PM   #51
Rev.Chuck
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The forensic dude is wrong based on information I have read revolving around the brain striking the interior of the skull, in a coup(the brain is bruised on the side of impact) or contra coup(The brain is bruised on the side oppsite initial impact, usually from smacking the impact side and bouncing back against the opposite side) incident. The job of the helmet is not to, so much, keep your head from touching the ground as it is to lengthen the time of impact. To test this, and this will use your hand, not your brain, so permanent damage is less likely, Take a cinder block. Punch it as hard as you can with your non dominant hand(That is the one you don't write with). Now got to the urgent care and get it casted. On your way home pick up a cheap styrofoam cooler and some duct tape. Once home break off enough foam to make about a two inch thick foam block about twice the size of your squared fist(bigger if you can't aim). Tape it to the cinder block and hit it with your other hand, the one not in a cast. The force of the impact will be spread over a longer period of time reducing the peak impact force and lowering the area under the curve. This is what keeps you from suffering a brain injury. Your brain still smacks against the inside of your skull but not so hard as the impact is not sudden but spread out over, a short, period of time. This is the same reason auto makers build crumple zones into cars and make the steering column collapse as it hits your chest. Or like when you trip and fall into a bush as compared to tripping and falling on a pile of bricks.

I am not a trained forensic specialist (I am a trained EMT) And I have worked with guys racing cars, motorcycles, and bicycles since I was 18. They all wear helmets and are still alive. Even tho some of the moto guys have had some nasty highsides, I have seen two cars destroyed, and one of my bike guys has broken three frames in the last year(He is working on a Banshee now)

Merriwether, Some of us wear helmets when driving a car,
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Old 11-15-03, 10:44 PM   #52
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Buy or die.
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Old 11-15-03, 11:14 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
The forensic dude is wrong based on information I have read revolving around the brain striking the interior of the skull, ...I am not a trained forensic specialist (I am a trained EMT)
Everyone is alowed to believe what they want, and buy (for a much money as they want to spend) what they want, but it just is open to question if these things are the best way to spend money.

If you want to believe your own logic, great. I'm going to question your explaination when trained professionals, whos specialty is in this field, address popular misconceptions perpetrated by manafacturers. For instance, a neurosurgeon and member of Canadian Standards Association Committee establishing helmet standards, Dr. Michael Schwartz, says, "... helmets will mitigate the effects of falling off your bicycle and striking your head... If a cyclist is accelerated by a car, then the helmet will not work and will not prevent a severe or even fatal injury"

Comments like,

Quote:
Originally Posted by prestonjb
Buy or die.
don't help understand what is not a black or white issue. It's not just buy, either. It's spend 10 times what you have to, and it's buy and then buy again, even if you don't need to (as described by the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute). That type of thinking are what marketers want. Sheep thinking.

Last edited by closetbiker; 11-15-03 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 11-16-03, 12:23 AM   #54
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A helmet, much like a kevlar vest, is ment to defer impact energy not iliminate any injury. A helmet, if I remember right, is tested for impact force in a typical six foot fall, not when being struck by the fender of a '67 dart doing fourty. Far more people fall off their bikes on to the curb than are hit by cars. I have crashed hundreds of times but only hit by cars twice. First time multiple femur fracture(No helmet on my thigh) Second time, hit by pickup, kissed pavement going about 20, destroyed helmet opened both knees and elbows, lost about a half pint but no concussion. Highsided my Kz at 60 plus, messed up a good set of leathers and cracked my helmet but I walked(limped) off with only a bruised knee. However, I got heel kicked in the head during a competition, viola', concussion. Nothing like having your teammates walk you around all night when all you want to do is take a nap.
You can always trust a "court specialist", they would never lie, just because they are paid to have an opinion that favors a certain outcome
Read here about Saami Shaibani an expert witness in many cases finally called out in a local murder case.
http://www.newsobserver.com/peterson...-2669833c.html
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Old 11-16-03, 12:27 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetbiker
Everyone is alowed to believe what they want, and buy (for a much money as they want to spend) what they want, but it just is open to question if these things are the best way to spend money.

If you want to believe your own logic, great. I'm going to question your explaination when trained professionals, whos specialty is in this field, address popular misconceptions perpetrated by manafacturers. For instance, a neurosurgeon and member of Canadian Standards Association Committee establishing helmet standards, Dr. Michael Schwartz, says, "... helmets will mitigate the effects of falling off your bicycle and striking your head... If a cyclist is accelerated by a car, then the helmet will not work and will not prevent a severe or even fatal injury"

Comments like,



don't help understand what is not a black or white issue. It's not just buy, either. It's spend 10 times what you have to, and it's buy and then buy again, even if you don't need to (as described by the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute). That type of thinking are what marketers want. Sheep thinking.
You know its fine if you do not want to wear a helmet it's a Darwin thing anyway. But stop belittleing those of us that have had PERSONAL experiance with crashes and helmets with old studies, some obscure expert witness that was being paid to say what he said, and statistics that don't mean a dang thing about helmet safety (you know the one you keep posting about how people who ride bikes tend to live longer not because they doin't weart a helmet, its because they get exercise).
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Old 11-16-03, 12:30 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetbiker
Everyone is alowed to believe what they want, and buy (for a much money as they want to spend) what they want, but it just is open to question if these things are the best way to spend money.

If you want to believe your own logic, great. I'm going to question your explaination when trained professionals, whos specialty is in this field, address popular misconceptions perpetrated by manafacturers. For instance, a neurosurgeon and member of Canadian Standards Association Committee establishing helmet standards, Dr. Michael Schwartz, says, "... helmets will mitigate the effects of falling off your bicycle and striking your head... If a cyclist is accelerated by a car, then the helmet will not work and will not prevent a severe or even fatal injury"

Comments like,



don't help understand what is not a black or white issue. It's not just buy, either. It's spend 10 times what you have to, and it's buy and then buy again, even if you don't need to (as described by the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute). That type of thinking are what marketers want. Sheep thinking.
You know its fine if you do not want to wear a helmet it's a Darwin thing anyway. But stop belittling those of us that have had PERSONAL experience with crashes and helmets with old studies, some obscure expert witness that was being paid to say what he said, and statistics that don't mean a dang thing about helmet safety (you know the one you keep posting about how people who ride bikes tend to live longer not because they don't wear a helmet, its because they get exercise). I go by personal experience and common sense. I am way to smart to buy into marketing ploys if that was true I would own a Cannondale
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Old 11-16-03, 09:31 AM   #57
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Quote:
It's not just buy, either. It's spend 10 times what you have to, and it's buy and then buy again, even if you don't need to (as described by the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute). That type of thinking are what marketers want. Sheep thinking.
Don't understand the 10x part of this. A decent helmet is what $30. Is that 10x? So you want to pay $3?

I don't think we will see $3 helmets.

If you are complaing about the $100 helments... Well then I guess you also own a pair of the latest basketball high-tops too...

Sounds like you want to own an $80,000 porshe but are only willing to pay $8000.
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Old 11-16-03, 10:14 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prestonjb
Don't understand the 10x part of this.
Read the thread Preston. The original question
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatman
Aren't bike helmets overpriced? I think so, A top of the line bike helmet can cost up to $120 dollars but what you get is compacted foam covered whit a thin plastic cover and plastic and vinyl straps.
to which I replied that I agree, and so does the BHSI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
You know its fine if you do not want to wear a helmet
Show me where I've even approached that subject of me not wearing a helmet. Don't let your impressions cloud what I'm addressing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
it's a Darwin thing anyway
well, I have brought this up (not on this thread, but others) and I agree. The sky doesn't fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
stop belittleing those of us that have had PERSONAL experiance with crashes and helmets
I hardly think saying that someone who is emotionaly involved and has no specific, verifiable training or study of what, exactly had, or how it had, occurred is more credible than others who have had this knowledge and experiance is belittling.

I also find it odd how, when someone opposes an argument, suddenly his experts are "some obscure expert witness that was being paid to say what he said because they are paid to have an opinion that favors a certain outcome", yet their experts are full of truth and lily-white.


and, as far as
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
old studies
goes, I find it funny that the last study I mentioned here (done in 2000) isn't recent enough for you. This is odd, as you first brought this up after I cite a 1988 study that you said was old, but somehow the study you brought up was done by Thompson, Rivara, and Thompson on the effectiveness of bicycle helmets, was published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1989.

Let's keep on track with the subject line here. Helmets are over priced because there is a sucker born every minute.
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Old 11-16-03, 11:03 AM   #59
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People need to recognize one fact.:







closetbiker=troll and not the good kind like A Troll either.
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Old 11-16-03, 11:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Raiyn
People need to recognize one fact.:
closetbiker=troll and not the good kind like A Troll either.
yeah, that's a good argument that further encourages constuctive debate and developing knowledge as well as respect for a different point of view.

What, are we in a school-yard during recess?
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Old 11-16-03, 12:09 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetbiker
Baaaah! .... Baaaah!

...or should that be...

Buuuuy! ... Buuuuy!
Judging by your above response to an earlier thread, the schoolyard is where you must be.

By the way the study I also looked at from 1999 states that it is an 66-88% better chance with than with out

http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/ab001855.htm

Now for another lesson on how statistics can be used to mislead your 2000 link to the study is not about helmet safety is it? It purrpose was to....

Quote:
To evaluate the relationship between levels of physical activity during work, leisure time, cycling to work, and sports participation and all-cause mortality.
And this was their conclusion....

Quote:
Leisure time physical activity was inversely associated with all-cause mortality in both men and women in all age groups. Benefit was found from moderate leisure time physical activity, with further benefit from sports activity and bicycling as transportation
The all-cause mortality you mentiones is only that when they did thew study they did not factor in cause of death. i.e whether it was from old age, heart attack, accident, AIDS, Darwin fodder etc etc...

It's about physical fitness not helmet safety so it doesn't prove diddley squat except you have a better chance of living longer if you ride your bike to work or not. . There is no mention in this study of weather the people riding there bikes did it with or without a helmet on. So break out this stat the next time someone starts a thread like "Its it better to ride to work or drive?" then jump on it you got the study to prove it.

Now I suggest you might try advertising or politics they both, like to you, use statistics taken out of context to prove a point.

So know I am off to spend Sunday not riding (don't want to deal with those 50 mph headwinds they are talking about on the news. And maybe wotrk on another sky is falling theroy

edit: posting oops
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Old 11-16-03, 02:24 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
Judging by your above response to an earlier thread, the schoolyard is where you must be.
well, I'll give you that, but at least that immature comment was making a point that had been addressed. Consumers are acting like sheep. The "Troll" comment had no place in the argument or in regards to what I've posted.

I'll read that link. I read as much as I can on the subject which is why I have some problems with many claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngateguy
There is no mention in this study of weather the people riding there bikes did it with or without a helmet on.
Yeah, there is. The setting of the study is quite clearly noted as Copenhagen, Denmark. As I mentioned, and is common knowledge, bicyclists there wear helmets at a rate of less than 1%. In addition, cyclists from this area have among the lowest rates of injury in the world. So, much in opposition to those that post here, cyclists do not die if they do not wear helmets, but, in fact, live longer, healthier lives while cycling without helmets.

Maybe we should adopt stratagies incorporated there, to enhance road safety and improved public health here rather than chasing around McGuffins (like over priced helmets).

Last edited by closetbiker; 11-16-03 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 11-16-03, 04:52 PM   #63
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Closet biker:

OK let us look again...

Moto helmets of up to $500. Bicycle helmets of up to $150.

Low end bicycle helmets of around $20-30. Low end moto-helmets of around $60-80.

Price ratios:

High end moto: high-end-bicycle = 500:150 = 3.3x more for the moto helmet

low end moto: low end bicycle = 70:30 = 2.3x more.

So if we take this trial and just average the ratio then a moto helmet is 2.8x more expensive than a bicycle helmet.

Of course if we do averages we will probably settle on a different number... Let us assume we are all cheapos then the price would be closer to 2.5x difference in price.

then again the underlying question that was not properly address in the original question was what is the price the AVERAGE JOE would spend. It would not be $500. It would not be $120. For the bicycle it would be around $40.

So as I am trying to understand better... What price ranges are we talking about?

In the original question it was also stated that the materials are around $40 for a bicyle helmet. this must be wrong because all helmets would be a minimum of $41

if these statements are way out of wack then I must ask if the original statement is out of wack.

I think the pricing of the TOTL helmets are also just like that of TOTL basketball shoes. The market will pay and therefore they will pay.

Note that high-end wheelsets are also fixating on higher pricing recently. The more Lance wins, the more lance wanna-look-likes will appear and the more the market will charge.
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Old 11-16-03, 05:02 PM   #64
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CB: On your last post...

If all the bikers are average joes and 99% of them commute/shop with bikes and then we are in a world with less cars. And also these riders tend to ride around 10mph.

The helmet is also designed to protect incase of high-speed falls more... Esp those designed for racing. Esp for children with lower coordination skills and softer skulls.

Sure I rode my bike from 1982 to 1996 without a helmet. I fell three times during those years and fortunatly did not get hurt.

In 1998 I fell when the guy in front of me went down on a sport ride and I woulda been in the hospital if not for the helmet. Two well renoun cyclist/racers (to me) died where the docktor said they woulda lived with a helmet.

In South Florida the number of injuries/fatalities on bicycles are often involving children and those riding wrong way or at night without lights. Statistically I am in the other percential which is around 5% of the total cyclist and of the 5% I am in only 1% of us will be in an accident. I want to make sure I am wearing a helmet if I am chosen to be the 1% of the 5%.

If you don't want to be or if the other 99% dont want to wear a helmet then I've got my celphone. Hope the ambulance arrives in time.
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Old 11-16-03, 09:17 PM   #65
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For every $100+ helmet we sell we sell 30 helmets under $40 So, most of our customers have figured out you don't need to buy a $100 helmet. I don't even try to sell the pricey ones, the $40 ones are fine and what most people want anyway.
Bi***ing about $120 helmets is like bi***ing about $120,000 cars. What do you care? Don't buy it. They make $10,000 watches and $1,000,000 homes too.
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Old 11-16-03, 11:52 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetbiker
The setting of the study is quite clearly noted as Copenhagen, Denmark. As I mentioned, and is common knowledge, bicyclists there wear helmets at a rate of less than 1%. In addition, cyclists from this area have among the lowest rates of injury in the world. So, much in opposition to those that post here, cyclists do not die if they do not wear helmets, but, in fact, live longer, healthier lives while cycling without helmets.
I here Copenhagen is a cool place someday I would like to visit there. I also here that it is very bike friendly there. Maybe one day they will do a study on BIKE HELMETS and then we could discuss the issue. However I do not disagree with the conclusion made by your pet statistics., and will continue to ride my bike and live a healthy lifestyle. Since you are not part of the study you really cannot add your own assumptions and speculations. For you to be able to use that study it needs to set up the criteria for the use of helmets and what the objectives are, how many had helmets on when the died if their deaths were caused by blunt trauma etc. There is nothing at all in that study about helmets so you can only speculate, again a predominate trait amongst people that don't usually know what they are talking about.

On $100 helmets I own one but I didn't pay $100 for it it was just over $50, why? I always buy stuff that are on SALE. I can tell you there is differences in a $100 helmet and a $20 one. And they are not about safety. My helmet is lighter has better venting and is much easier to adjust for size. For someone like me it is worth the extra money to use it since I pratically live on my bike. Weekend warriors and casual riders, or people that are just concerned about safety can easily save their money and buy any helmet with a snell aproval on it.
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Old 11-17-03, 12:58 AM   #67
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Why are you letting the troll get you all worked up? It's so easy to put him on your ignore list (as I have) where his statistic warping will go unseen. He will NEVER admit that he is dead wrong even if he were to have first hand proof handed to him on a silver platter.
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Old 11-17-03, 03:05 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
Why are you letting the troll get you all worked up? It's so easy to put him on your ignore list (as I have) where his statistic warping will go unseen. He will NEVER admit that he is dead wrong even if he were to have first hand proof handed to him on a silver platter.
With respect Raiyn, can I just take a moment to request that if you don't wish to read the posts of another forum member or participate in a particular discussion that you just let it go? There really is no need to turn the thread in to a rock-throwing contest over a few personal differences.

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Old 11-17-03, 08:15 AM   #69
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With respect...There really is no need to turn the thread in to a rock-throwing contest over a few personal differences.
I too, can only despair that my point has missed it's mark and just let it go.
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Old 11-24-03, 01:55 AM   #70
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The price of helmets is determined like the price of anything in a free-market economy : what the consumer will pay. Probably in this case compared to the cost of a bike (20% of the cost of the cheapest new bike).
When helmets became compulsory in Australia, the price halved to $20, and has stayed there ever since !
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Old 11-24-03, 06:36 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prestonjb

Price ratios:

High end moto: high-end-bicycle = 500:150 = 3.3x more for the moto helmet

low end moto: low end bicycle = 70:30 = 2.3x more.
Preston what I want you to compare is a high end bike helmet vs. a low end motorcycle helmet. What you are going to find is that even when it is a low end helmet the quality and amount of materials, "craftmanship" (I know those are done by machinry) and construction are way much better. Now go do the same with a football helmet, same thing! When I look at a $40 or $100+ bike helmet I don't see that I'm getting what I'm paying for.
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Old 11-25-03, 09:25 PM   #72
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fm:

Yea the low end moto is 70 and the high end bike is 150...

Ok so let's look at the other side...
Weight
Ventilation
Comfort
Noise reduction

Moto:
weight 1000 grams
ventilation: typically through or around face.
Comfort: large cell-foam contacts
Noise Reduction: Ear muffs or side shells to reduce wind and motor noise.

Bicycle helmet
weight 300 grams (1/3 of the weight)
Ventilation: the more the better. Air guided over, around and out the back using various channels and other design techniques
Comfort: Sparce cells need to be strategically placed to allow ventilation but provide comfort.
Noise reduction: None (except I assume we don't want the helmet to whistle through the air vents).

So I think we are comparing a lear jet toe a gossomer-human-powered-plane.

We are not comparing F1 race car helmets to NASCAR helmets. This thread is like comparing a palm pilot against a desktop PC... One is designed for utmost portability, low power, small and such while the other is designed to hold as much data as possible, stationary, handle printers, monitors, phisical internet connections and such...

I've no problem with saying that something that weighs 2/3s less, provides full ventilation and still has a good measure of protection is going to be the same price as the lowest end of the one design to protect you at speeds of 55mph!

Matter of fact I would think the older technology of the motor cycle helmet would drive the prices down


Tell ya what... Instead of peeing into the wind I think we should find something else to talk about...

The only way we can truly consolidate the worth of the helmets is to become experts in both fields and understand the true costs.

Or find someone in the biz of making both types of helmets and find out why the prices seem unequal to some of us.
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Old 11-25-03, 09:26 PM   #73
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Oh yea on my Palm pilot to PC compare...

One cost $500 and the other cost..... Um $500.
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Old 11-26-03, 11:02 AM   #74
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I have friends who have worked for (at different times) L garneau, Bell Sports, and Giro. Giro spent $200k some years ago for a temperature sensitive, deformable head form to better analyze heat buildup, loads from impact, and neck strain. I'm sorry, but asking if bicycle helmets are overpriced is one bloody stupid question.
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