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Old 04-09-08, 03:25 PM   #1
alanfleisig
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Anyone giving up their #3, #6 and #7 bottles?

So, some doctor from Mt. Sinai was on the Today show this morning saying, basically,

never, ever drink from #7 (Bpa) plastic bottles,

and while you're at it, give up the #3 and #6 bottles too, just for good measure.

Apparently, he says it will make you impotent (guys), and make you give birth to frogs (girls).

Anybody doing this, thinking about it?

I know some company was advertising "safe" bike bottles. When I caught the ad, I just thought of them as crunchy/kookie. Now I'm thinking of buying stock.

Thoughts?
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Old 04-09-08, 03:58 PM   #2
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This is old news. Stainless steel bottles are an option, the only problem is that they usually have screw tops and are not the easiest thing to use on a bicycle. Stay away from aluminium bottles though as they have there own issues and are often lined with plastic.
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Old 04-09-08, 04:00 PM   #3
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Camelback and Naglene are redoing their bottles for this reason. This is old news in the Green circles, most of us switched bottles last year, I have a Camelback #7 I love and haven't given up yet, but that will go once the new bottles are readily available
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Old 04-09-08, 04:52 PM   #4
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Did the good Dr. provide any solid irrefutable evidence or is it just another "don't put plastic in the microwave" scare story. Too much of that kind of stuff is not based on real evidence but rather presupposed poisons and carcinogens etc that there is no real scientific evidence to substantiate. How many times have you heard even a supposedly credible source claim quite authoritatively some 'health fact' only to have peers later find just the opposite or no verifyable evidence. So we switch our lifestyles here and there to follow the latest 'claim' then switch back later when a new opinion is presented. Drs are not infallible or unbiased or many times truly scientific in their approach. There are enough real, scientifically verifiable hazards to occupy my attention without chasing butterflys of this source without seeing some evidence as in REPEATABLE DATA from multiple sources. What's in the water before putting it in the 'poison bottle' may in fact be worse than the poison bottle itself.

There's my rant!
See also http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/petbottles.asp
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Old 04-09-08, 04:52 PM   #5
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I'm 63 and finished with the reproductive process, so I'll keep my Camelback bottle.
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Old 04-09-08, 05:27 PM   #6
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Taken care of a long time ago... Polar insulated are #4.
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Old 04-09-08, 05:29 PM   #7
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These stories just sound like wild urban myths to me designed to frighten the public. I'll continue to drink out of whatever bottles I've got.

Oh, but thanks for letting me know what will happen if I drink out of a bottle with the wrong number. Up till now all I've heard is that some evil "toxins" are going to get me. Now I know that these evil "toxins" will cause a complete genetic change in me so that I will be able to bear amphibians. I'm sure the scientific community would be all over that if I actually did ... not to mention the tabloids!!
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Old 04-09-08, 05:38 PM   #8
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Only issue I have with plastic bottles is the excessive proliferation of the disposable ones One thing that the plastic bottle proponents neglect to tell you is that all food that is packed in plastic has to be in virgin plastic no recycled content allowed. FWIW I still use my Nalgene #7's and will continue to. I also have a couple of the Stainless Steel Klean Kanteens I like them for carrying liquids inside my saddle bag or panniers.

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Old 04-09-08, 06:48 PM   #9
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I switched to stainless steel KLean Kanteen
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Old 04-09-08, 07:01 PM   #10
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mmm what number are Polar bottles?


edit: checked Polar's site they are #4 plastic
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Old 04-09-08, 07:47 PM   #11
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Welcome to Sesame Street......... where cancer is brought to you by the Numbers 3, 6 and 7!
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Old 04-09-08, 09:21 PM   #12
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FYI I do plastics testing and failure analysis for a living and yes some of the ingredients in plastics are nasty and will make you pee green and have 7-toed babies...but, the reality of it is that vast majority of that "bad stuff" whether it is lead, or bisphenol-A, or phthalate plasticizers, is NOT SOLUBLE. Yes they're in there, but no they're not coming out (except for phthalate plasticizers so avoid drinking out of anything made of flexible PVC). And of the stuff that is soluble, it is more often at such a low level that it will never reach the amounts researchers claim will cause said "permanent damage".

Seriously though, the vast majority of the stories you hear and the legislation that is passed is based on the worst case scenario wherein some company that is trying to cash in on some trend or another buys the cheapest material, which is often also the wrong material for the application, and has it processed by the cheapest company and the end result is someone getting sick. So the lawyers and politicians legislate away, the scientists research away, and the consumers believe all that they read.

Bottom line is spend the $$ for quality products made by reputable companies and you have a better chance of staying healthy. I do a lot of work for alot of companies that are afraid of our litigious society and are pro-active in removing caustic materials from their products at great expense to them. When it comes to water bottles though, avoid PVC anywhere near your drinking water, continue to use your polypropylene and polyethylene water bottles, but avoid anything that has an EVA layer. For your hard bottles look at co-polyester bottles like the ones made by Camelbak, or look at quality made stainless steel (you should avoid cheap SS as it too may be caustic) and you should also think twice before using a cheap polycarbonate water bottle.

You know after thinking about it maybe we should all buy bubbles and hide away from the rest of the world. Either that or HTFU because seriously, our parents made it through their lives being exposed to and ingesting far worse crap than we will ever have to endure and they somehow survived.
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Old 04-10-08, 12:52 AM   #13
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Look this waterbottle topic up on Snopes ... it's an urban myth.
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Old 04-10-08, 04:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanfleisig View Post
So, some doctor from Mt. Sinai was on the Today show this morning saying, basically,

[SNIP]
Anybody doing this, thinking about it?

I know some company was advertising "safe" bike bottles. When I caught the ad, I just thought of them as crunchy/kookie. Now I'm thinking of buying stock.

Thoughts?
The doctor already has bought the stock and would like to sell at a much higher price to people like you.
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Old 04-10-08, 05:37 AM   #15
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Problem solved, drinking directly from streams and puddles.

Last edited by dobber; 04-10-08 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 04-10-08, 07:18 AM   #16
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Look this waterbottle topic up on Snopes ... it's an urban myth.
Not quite true on the Bisphenol A front as it says even on the Snopes page. It is debatable and if you look at the pretty well annotated wikipedia entry, a lot of that debate is caused by companies with vested interests.

The "safe" amount in the US is 50 ug/day which is higher than amounts which caused effects in studies. CamelBak has BPA free bottles now, so there is really no reason not to switch.
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Old 04-10-08, 08:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanfleisig View Post
So, some doctor from Mt. Sinai was on the Today show this morning saying, basically,

never, ever drink from #7 (Bpa) plastic bottles,

and while you're at it, give up the #3 and #6 bottles too, just for good measure.

Apparently, he says it will make you impotent (guys), and make you give birth to frogs (girls).

Anybody doing this, thinking about it?

I know some company was advertising "safe" bike bottles. When I caught the ad, I just thought of them as crunchy/kookie. Now I'm thinking of buying stock.

Thoughts?
If you bother to go look up the codes and know a little about plastic bottle usage, you'll see that this is a ridiculous story.

#3 plastic is PVC. Used a lot in your water systems of newer houses. Not used a lot for water bottles because it imparts a funny taste to the water...the bad stuff.

#6 plastic is polystyrene. Use a lot in foam food containers (which you shouldn't microwave), packing peanuts, switch plate covers, helmets, etc. Not a lot of it...like none!...is used in water bottles.

#7 plastic is every thing else, i.e. miscellaneous. That could be anything that doesn't fit in 1-6 which is a whole lot of new plastics.

PET which is used in just about every water bottle and soft drink bottle is #1, by the way. Most squeezable water bottles are made of polyethylene, #4 plastic.
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Old 04-10-08, 08:46 AM   #18
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If you bother to go look up the codes and know a little about plastic bottle, you'll see that this is a ridiculous story.

#3 plastic is PVC. Used a lot in your water systems of newer houses. Not used a lot for water bottles because it imparts a funny taste to the water...the bad stuff.

#6 plastic is polystyrene. Use a lot in foam food containers (which you shouldn't microwave), packing peanuts, switch plate covers, helmets, etc. Not a lot of it...like none!...is used in water bottles.

#7 plastic is every thing else, i.e. miscellaneous. That could be anything that doesn't fit in 1-6 which is a whole lot of new plastics.

PET which is used in just about every water bottle and soft drink bottle is #1, by the way. Most squeezable water bottles are made of polyethylene, #4 plastic.
Ummm... so because it is ubiquitous, it isn't harmful? That argument would have applied to leaded gasoline among other pollutants.
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Old 04-10-08, 08:56 AM   #19
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Ummm... so because it is ubiquitous, it isn't harmful? That argument would have applied to leaded gasoline among other pollutants.
I don't think that is what he was saying.

I read it that the majority of water bottles do not fall into the categories that are relevant to the warning.

He did say that the majority of off the shelf were 1's, but without reference to whether they are safe or not...

This particular interview did say they are #1, but suggested that although deemed safe, they were not appropriate for re-use.
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Old 04-10-08, 09:04 AM   #20
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Bicycle bottles are made from LDPE, this is the safest plastic. Bisphenol, the chemical at issue, is not used in its manufacture. Bisphenol is is used to make polycarb bottles(The hard, clear bottles). Polycarb is also used to line cans and frozen food packaging. The study that got the attention(this was when MEC pulled the poly bottles) involved heating polycarb baby bottles. There was bisphenol leaching when the bottles were heated(But not when they were not heated) Bisphenol mimics estrogen, so it is possible for the body to react, a bigger deal for small children(What the study was aimed at in the first place. the study did not show an adverse effect on humans it showed that bisphenol would leach, in very small amounts, into the contents of a heated bottle).
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Old 04-10-08, 09:07 AM   #21
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Accoring to Consumer Reports story this month this plastic is also
used to line cans for canned foods. So it's little wonder that 97%
of the American population already had measurable amounts
plastic residue in their bodies already.
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Old 04-10-08, 09:24 AM   #22
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Taken care of a long time ago... Polar insulated are #4.
How do you know that Polar insulated are #4? I looked at mine, and couldn't find a number.
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Old 04-10-08, 09:33 AM   #23
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I don't think that is what he was saying.

I read it that the majority of water bottles do not fall into the categories that are relevant to the warning.

He did say that the majority of off the shelf were 1's, but without reference to whether they are safe or not...

This particular interview did say they are #1, but suggested that although deemed safe, they were not appropriate for re-use.
Most of the disposable bottles are PET or plastic #1. The plastics called out in the post and in the news report are PVC, polystyrene and 'other'. PVC and polystyrene are, and have been know for a long time, to be hazardous because they can leach unreacted plastic precursors into their contents. Polystyrene is does less leaching than PVC which is the classic 'new car smell'. Polystyrene also isn't stable to heat, which is why you don't want to heat your food in it.

I don't know of anyone who is putting liquids or food in constant contact (not including take-home boxes) with either of these polymers. #7 plastics could be anything so who knows.

As for reusing PET bottles, if the bottle is used for liquids from the bottling plant, any chemicals that would leach from the bottle would already have leached into the contents. Refilling them isn't going to cause more stuff to leach into the bottle than the original liquid contained. If anything it will contain less because the contact period will be shorter and the concentration of the leachate is lower...having already left the bottle.

Sterility of plastic bottles on reuse is more of an issue than leachates.
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Old 04-10-08, 09:50 AM   #24
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Ummm... so because it is ubiquitous, it isn't harmful? That argument would have applied to leaded gasoline among other pollutants.
There are substances that are known to be hazardous and have always been known to be hazardous, stuff that is possibly hazardous, stuff that is maybe hazardous and stuff that is completely nonhazardous.

Tetraethyllead was, is and has always been known to be a very hazardous poison. From the get-go it was known as a poison and should never have been used in wide distribution. It was used because people were lazy and it worked to boost the octane number of a fuel and provide some lubricative benefits. That doesn't mean it was right but it was used.

Plastics...and remember there are thousands of them...fall into the category of possibly, maybe and not hazardous. Some, like PVC, are known to be hazardous and have been taken out of the market. You just don't find much stuff that is made of PVC on the market. Some, like polystyrene, are maybe hazardous depending on how you handle them. Don't use them for things they aren't intended for...like cooking...and you'll not have much problem with them. There are other plastics like polyethylene and polypropylene that have chemical structures that put them in the maybe to not hazardous category. Not much can leach out of them into water because they don't dissolve in water. Of course if you use them incorrectly...like cooking in them...all bets are off.

And then there is the every day stuff that is hazardous if used incorrectly. Helium is completely inert. It won't react with anything. It will make you talk funny. It will float your balloon. But walk into a room filled with it and you'll be just as dead as if you walked into a room filled with carbon monoxide or chlorine. You'll die talking funny and it won't be as painful but you'll still be dead. Water, table salt, sugar, flour, nitrogen, baking soda, etc can all kill you slow or fast and in ways that you can't even begin to imagine. (Hint: Flour can be an explosive) You either spend your days under your bed worrying about things that can kill you or you deal with it and get on with your life.
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Old 04-10-08, 10:06 AM   #25
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A better source for fact-checking this issue than Snopes:

www.iatp.org
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