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  1. #26
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusF View Post
    Ok...maybe I am too new here and I am missing some in-jokes or something. I still don't understand how this part of the OP's post could arouse some of the hostility displayed by earlier posters, stuff like 'this whole thread is a fail' and similar comments. To me, the quoted statement also makes sense.

    Anyway, it looks like this thread has strayed off topic from the original post so I don't think I have any more comments to add right now.
    This isn't part of his post but is part of his signature/message on every post. This shows a complete rejection of vehicular cycling/cycling as transportation on the roadways. Not share the road, but give up the road.

  2. #27
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    Hi,
    I'm back. I didn't get a chance to check this post for replies yesterday. Okay, I got a lot of criticism.

    First, I was trying to remind everyone to use the term "Driving" when talking about bicycling. If you are ever in a Courtroom, you must say you were driving your bike. If you say you were riding your bike, then the accident is your own fault. That's the main point I was trying to make, with a bit of embellishment.
    Okay, you can still ride a bike, just call it driving if it ever becomes a Courtroom battle.

    Second, I don't know how a race would be a race with the participants stopping for traffic lights. We're timing races down to a hundredth of a second, but you spend two minutes at a light.

    Thanks for all the replies. Again, I was making this brief essay like a piece of creative writing. If your bicycling ever leads you to a courtroom , I hope you remember to use the term "Driving".

    Now go ride your bike.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  3. #28
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    I fail to see how swapping one word for another in a court room will help you any. It may give the court pause being that you used the wrong term. Meaning that they will find you a loon at best or wonder about your grasp of english.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Garfield Cat's Avatar
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    In California motorcyclists need a different kind of "driver's" license to operate a motorcycle. Yet we say "I ride a motorcycle" and never "I drive a motorcycle".

  5. #30
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DataJunkie View Post
    I fail to see how swapping one word for another in a court room will help you any. It may give the court pause being that you used the wrong term. Meaning that they will find you a loon at best or wonder about your grasp of english.
    It's very important to use the correct "Legalese" in a courtroom. No, they won't give you a chance to correct yourself, or tell you what you said wrong.
    Another word for the courtroom is "Highway". In 'Legalese' the word "Highway" refers to any road, not just the multilane roads with high speed limits. Even the sidewalk is part of the "Highway". It's very frustrating but that's the way it is. (At least here in New York).
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  6. #31
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    Isn't that what a lawyer is for? No offense intended but I would rather take my lawyer's advice over a thread on a forum.

  7. #32
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DataJunkie View Post
    Isn't that what a lawyer is for? No offense intended but I would rather take my lawyer's advice over a thread on a forum.
    Okay then, plead the 'fifth' and let your Lawyer do the talking.

    I'm just saying, the two times I was in Court, I said I was "Driving" my bike, and I didn't get in any trouble. The Judge in both cases was very particular about the correct terminology, and I "walked".
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  8. #33
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    I said nothing about pleading the fifth. Just that usually lawyers advise you on what to say.

  9. #34
    Senior Member thebarerider's Avatar
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    Um.

  10. #35
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusF View Post
    Ok...maybe I am too new here and I am missing some in-jokes or something. I still don't understand how this part of the OP's post could arouse some of the hostility displayed by earlier posters, stuff like 'this whole thread is a fail' and similar comments. To me, the quoted statement also makes sense.

    Anyway, it looks like this thread has strayed off topic from the original post so I don't think I have any more comments to add right now.
    Something I've noticed on this forum is that people don't like to be pidgeon-holed as to what type of cyclist they are. The OP attempted to do this. "Either your purpose for riding is A and therefore you should ride like X, else your purpose is B and you should ride like Y." Nothing's that black and white and people (quite rightly) get indignant when someone tries to make cycling or portray it that way. The OP had some good points but the message got lost because of this. That's how I read it, anyway.
    "Cyclists have a right to the road too, you noisy polluting inconsiderate maniacs! I hope gas goes up to eight bucks a gallon!" - the dad from Calvin & Hobbes, 1993

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    Hi,
    First, I was trying to remind everyone to use the term "Driving" when talking about bicycling. If you are ever in a Courtroom, you must say you were driving your bike. If you say you were riding your bike, then the accident is your own fault. That's the main point I was trying to make, with a bit of embellishment.
    Okay, you can still ride a bike, just call it driving if it ever becomes a Courtroom battle.
    Thanks for following up with yet another incorrect assumption.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  12. #37
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalster View Post
    Something I've noticed on this forum is that people don't like to be pidgeon-holed as to what type of cyclist they are. The OP attempted to do this. "Either your purpose for riding is A and therefore you should ride like X, else your purpose is B and you should ride like Y." Nothing's that black and white and people (quite rightly) get indignant when someone tries to make cycling or portray it that way. The OP had some good points but the message got lost because of this. That's how I read it, anyway.
    I realize there is a broad spectrum of cycling techniques. No it's not black and white, there is a huge grey area. It's one thing when a roadie blows a red light, but it's different if Joe Six-pack runs a red light, probably half drunk (wearing the traditional blue jeans and flannel shirt).

    There have been a lot of complaints lately about cyclists rolling red lights. I'd like to defend those who race, or are training to race. I'd like to explain a few things about bicycling to the motorists who make these complaints. I've seen more complaints from motorists about cyclists running red lights than I can count. (Always, whenever there is a newspaper story about a bicycle accident, there are the online comments...) There is the fact that you have to stand on the tips of your toes to remain stopped, bicycles can not balance well unless moving. Does the average motorist know anything about bicycling, let alone how difficult it is to do a track-stand? I like to have a foot on the curb if I stop, but that's not good practice if I have to be at the right edge of a RTOL and I want to go straight. The other day in fact I saw a motorist behind me, signaling right, and I moved up to where the bike-box should be, I couldn't do the track-stand and I went before the light had turned green. Nobody's perfect, and there has to be a fudge-factor.

    Also, because I weigh 270 pounds, I get more respect than I did when I was young and skinny. Road ragers don't want to get out of their car and start a fist-fight with someone bigger than them. Look at the Clydesdale forum, you don't see many posts about raging cagers wanting to start fist-fights, do you?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  13. #38
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    http://www.ocala.com/article/2008071...ed_of_his_beer

    Read this story about the bicyclist with his twelve pack. The damned cagers stole his beer!
    Last edited by hotbike; 07-15-08 at 12:17 PM.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  14. #39
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    I realize there is a broad spectrum of cycling techniques. No it's not black and white, there is a huge grey area. It's one thing when a roadie blows a red light, but it's different if Joe Six-pack runs a red light, probably half drunk (wearing the traditional blue jeans and flannel shirt).

    There have been a lot of complaints lately about cyclists rolling red lights. I'd like to defend those who race, or are training to race. I'd like to explain a few things about bicycling to the motorists who make these complaints. I've seen more complaints from motorists about cyclists running red lights than I can count. (Always, whenever there is a newspaper story about a bicycle accident, there are the online comments...) There is the fact that you have to stand on the tips of your toes to remain stopped, bicycles can not balance well unless moving. Does the average motorist know anything about bicycling, let alone how difficult it is to do a track-stand? I like to have a foot on the curb if I stop, but that's not good practice if I have to be at the right edge of a RTOL and I want to go straight. The other day in fact I saw a motorist behind me, signaling right, and I moved up to where the bike-box should be, I couldn't do the track-stand and I went before the light had turned green. Nobody's perfect, and there has to be a fudge-factor.

    Also, because I weigh 270 pounds, I get more respect than I did when I was young and skinny. Road ragers don't want to get out of their car and start a fist-fight with someone bigger than them. Look at the Clydesdale forum, you don't see many posts about raging cagers wanting to start fist-fights, do you?
    So now you're advocating different rules for different cyclists based on what their reason for riding is? Wow. Just wow. Do you really expect drivers who aren't also cyclists to be able to distinguish between your classifications of cyclists and react accordingly?

    I don't get to blow through red lights in my car just because I like to drive fast and for the fun of it as opposed to so I can haul my groceries home. "Racers" as you define them don't get to blow through red lights just because unclipping, getting off their seat and putting a foot down is slightly inconvenient and will add a minute or two to their time. The rules of the road are in place at least partly to try to bring some predictability to drivers'/cyclists' behaviour on the roads. If you put rules in to make it harder to predict what someone's going to do, you're making the road a more dangerous place, not a safer one.
    "Cyclists have a right to the road too, you noisy polluting inconsiderate maniacs! I hope gas goes up to eight bucks a gallon!" - the dad from Calvin & Hobbes, 1993

  15. #40
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    I realize there is a broad spectrum of cycling techniques. No it's not black and white, there is a huge grey area. It's one thing when a roadie blows a red light, but it's different if Joe Six-pack runs a red light, probably half drunk (wearing the traditional blue jeans and flannel shirt).

    There have been a lot of complaints lately about cyclists rolling red lights. I'd like to defend those who race, or are training to race. I'd like to explain a few things about bicycling to the motorists who make these complaints. I've seen more complaints from motorists about cyclists running red lights than I can count. (Always, whenever there is a newspaper story about a bicycle accident, there are the online comments...) There is the fact that you have to stand on the tips of your toes to remain stopped, bicycles can not balance well unless moving. Does the average motorist know anything about bicycling, let alone how difficult it is to do a track-stand? I like to have a foot on the curb if I stop, but that's not good practice if I have to be at the right edge of a RTOL and I want to go straight. The other day in fact I saw a motorist behind me, signaling right, and I moved up to where the bike-box should be, I couldn't do the track-stand and I went before the light had turned green. Nobody's perfect, and there has to be a fudge-factor.
    This post as well as the OP have to be the wackiest pair of posts on a single thread in BF, ever. Ignorance is bliss, eh?
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 07-19-08 at 12:16 PM.

  16. #41
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    Don't know how the laws read in other states, but legally in Florida anyone and everyone operating a bicycle is a bicycle driver.

  17. #42
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterRun View Post
    Don't know how the laws read in other states, but legally in Florida anyone and everyone operating a bicycle is a bicycle driver.
    Really? Can you post any reference in the FL code that actually uses the phrase "Bicycle Driver" or "Drive a Bicycle". I didn't think anyone in the U.S. used such stilted English phrasing except for a few Vehicular Cyclist ideologues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    This post as well as the OP have to be the wackiest pair of posts on a single thread in BF, ever. Ignorance is bliss, eh?
    You can say that again.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Really? Can you post any reference in the FL code that actually uses the phrase "Bicycle Driver" or "Drive a Bicycle". I didn't think anyone in the U.S. used such stilted English phrasing except for a few Vehicular Cyclist ideologues.
    Sure, here ya' go.

    Title XXIII MOTOR VEHICLES
    Chapter 316 STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL


    316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
    (2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.

    +

    (10) DRIVER.--Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle on a highway or who is exercising control of a vehicle or steering a vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle.

    +

    (75) VEHICLE.--Every device, in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, excepting devices used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

    =

    Bicycle Driver

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...EChapter%20316

    FLORIDA BICYCLE
    LAW ENFORCEMENT
    GUIDE
    A review of
    Florida’s bicycle traffic laws
    to help with warnings,
    citations and crash reports
    July 2007


    Legal status of cyclist:
    A bicycle is defined as a vehicle [316.003(2)] for
    purposes of the Uniform Traffic Control Law. A bicycle
    with an electric helper motor that cannot propel
    it faster than 20 mph on level ground is included in
    this definition.

    A person in control of a vehicle on a street or highway
    is a driver [316.003(1)]. As a driver, a cyclist
    must follow the traffic rules common to all drivers.
    As the driver of a bicycle, he must also obey rules
    adopted specially for bicycles.

    A cyclist has all of the rights to the roadway applicable
    to any driver, except as to the special regulations
    for bicycles [316.2065(1)]. A cyclist is not
    required to have a driver's license [322.01(42)].

    http://www.floridabicycle.org/resour...BLEG072007.pdf

    MyFlorida.com
    Florida Department of Transportation


    Legal status of bicycles
    (Sections 316.003(2), (10) and 316.2065(1), F.S.)

    A bicycle is classified as a vehicle. A person in control of a vehicle on a street or highway is a driver. As a driver, a cyclist must follow the traffic rules common to all drivers. As the driver of a bicycle, he must also obey regulations adopted specially for bicycles. A person riding a bicycle has all the rights applicable to any driver, except as to special regulations for bicycles.

    http://www.dot.state.fl.us/Safety/pe..._bikeLaws1.htm

    Florida Driver's Handbook 2008
    3. Your Driving
    3.7. Bicyclists
    Bicyclists
    In Florida, the bicycle is legally defined as a vehicle. Bicyclists using a public roadway are considered operators of motor vehicles and are responsible for observing traffic laws. With few exceptions, there is only one road and it is up to motorists and bicyclists to treat each other with care and respect. Adherence to the law is the foundation of respect.

    *I don't agree with this one. It's a matter of semantics. Various state statutes draw a clear distinction between motor vehicles and bicycles. I think what is meant is that bicyclists are considered operators of vehicles, i.e., bicycle driver.

    http://www.lowestpricetrafficschool..../driver/en/3/7
    Last edited by CommuterRun; 07-19-08 at 04:58 PM.

  20. #45
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Here in Alberta the person on a bicycle is referred to as the "operator of a bicycle". There's nothing about "driving" a bicycle. So ... I'm a cyclist who operates, rides, or propels a bicycle.

    http://www.canlii.org/ab/laws/sta/h-...217/whole.html

  21. #46
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    OK, hotbike, we're not IN a courtroom, so what's your point about "driving" vs. "riding"? Both require the "pilot" (there you go, a third term to confuse things further!) to obey the rules of the road, and of urban survival.

    It's such a waste of time, I can't believe I'm responding....

  22. #47
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    I really don't follow the original post. Tennessee law calls to "Every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway is granted all of the rights and is subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle" - and I have little doubt that a judge, jury, arbitrator, man in the street, 3 year old child would understand "rider" in the cyclist context. That the OP ended up in court over cycling a couple of times makes me chuckle - I've spent years trying to pick up a speeding ticket and I can't!

    So there are pretty clearly bicycle riders.

    I have to agree with previous posters that I can't really drive my bicycle like it's a car, and I certainly wouldn't "race" the thing. I drive cars in a very mellow manner using little of their performance capability (not that I can't, I just won't off a track), but the road is huge for a bicycle and will often support full use of the performance envelope. So I'll ride as fast as I can.

    Or maybe this refers to dress. I'll run pretty fast in civies with a basecall cap on my commute. Or slow. I'll run pretty fast in lycra, or slow if I see a good view. I don't see anyone really using a cycle on those end members. Full VC like a car doesn't work real well on big arterials. Full racing use of the road tends to get one impacted by oncoming traffic etc and is pretty hard. I'll distinguish racing riding from fun recreational riding. Which may well be pretty quick.

    Yeah yeah, racers are practicing an old sport. Folks always want to be faster than the guy in the next tent. If they run stop signs they're committing crimes every time and doing stupid. Traffic signals apply. Check the laws.

    Now let's look at the milk run. I'd ride my Wayzata with fenders. But there's a reason I have a triple with a 52 tooth chainring. On a slight downhill I'll be up in the small cogs on that 52. I'll pause at the end of the drive long enough to see whether anyone is coming then blast up the hill. I'll breeze the stop signs - why not, the cars do and it confuses people when I stop. Seriously! Funny stories about that. Once I'm up on Disco Loop I'll start pumping up the little hills, get the blood moving. In 15 minutes I'll be warm enough to start pushing a little and I'll be on the 52. I suspect most reasonably fit cyclists are going to be on the big ring and pushing a bit on their milk runs.

    But I stop at the signs on the real roads, ride appropriately to the conditions, stay lit up like a Christmas tree, and watch those idiots like a hawk. I don't argue about who has the right of way unless it makes sense. Some dickweed pulls halfway out in front of me through a stop sign, I'll lecture him. I'm not shy. But I have my escape routes ready. I don't get hit and I don't hit people. I haven't tapped a car since the early 1970s. Plenty of chances, including one attack, and I avoided impact there. If I'd been driving like a car I'd have been splattered for sure.

    Yeah, signals, many signals. Pointing, waving, thanking, motioning around. Cooperation. Yeah yeah, most cyclists of any years probably do this.

    As to racers gripes, who gives a flip? A racer can train on country roads without interfering with other traffic. Most of the country roads are 35 or 45 mph roads and cyclists can pop up to 50 without anyone batting an eye. Up to speed, the closure rate is pretty slow and everyone can get along easily. Maybe some morons run stops blind, but natural selection handles that.

    As to racing on public roads - that's different from training. I find the concept of racing on open roads to be pretty dang silly.

    Anyway, probably just venting. I have to wonder whether the OP can actually ride a bike reasonably fast and whether the OP has actually ridden in big cities, little ones, and country settings. Driving like a car doesn't hack it in any of those settings. Neither does riding like a racer. Riding like a skilled utility cyclist works and riding like a performance recreational rider works, as does everything in between. Riding like a racing cyclist will get you killed on uncontrolled roads. Not that it wouldn't be fun, but staying focused on everything instead of just going fast, and using the road with an eye to safety rather than just speed is appropriate.

  23. #48
    Senior Member gldrgidr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    I didn't think anyone in the U.S. used such stilted English phrasing except for a few Vehicular Cyclist ideologues.
    Actually 'riding a bicycle' is the stilted english phrasing. The terminology originated at a time when there were no cars and most people rode a horse. It's the same for the term bicycle saddle. It's old english that has continued to the present day. When you ride a horse, you don't actually steer the horse. All you do is signal to the horse which direction you want it to go. This might be why people used a different word to express controlling a motor vehicle.

    A couple of months ago I started 'riding' a bike after 20+ years without being on two wheels. At the time, the use of the term 'riding a bike' instead of 'driving a bike' struck a nerve. To someone who is not a bike enthusiast, 'riding' connotes being a passenger and 'driving' connotes being the operator/in control of a vehicle - a bus rider vs. a bus driver.

    To the public, the term 'riding' also sounds like you're on a toy, and not a real vehicle. This is probably a public image problem that we are not aware of.

    After two months I do automatically say 'ride' and 'riding' a bike, and now it sounds natural.

    I can't believe there are people on this forum who are condoning not stoping at stop signs and red lights. Some car drivers do it, so it's OK?
    This is like saying that riding while drunk is okay because lots of car drivers do it.
    Last edited by gldrgidr; 07-19-08 at 11:21 PM.

  24. #49
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    From Commuter Run's reply:

    "A person in control of a vehicle on a street or highway
    is a driver [316.003(1)]. As a driver, a cyclist
    must follow the traffic rules common to all drivers.
    As the driver of a bicycle, he must also obey rules
    adopted specially for bicycles."

    There it is in print, "As a driver, a cyclist must follow the traffic rules common to all drivers".

    That is Florida's wording, not mine. And the same word "Driver" applies to operators of bicycles in New York.

    I rest my case.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  25. #50
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    You have no case. The law does not care whether you claim you were riding, driving, operating, guiding or anything else, the law only cares if you were following the applicable law. There is simply no distinction between "I was riding my bike and stopped for a traffic signal" and "I was driving my bike and stopped for a traffic signal".
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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