f1junkie

Hi All -

I'm in a bit of a quandary. I won an auction for a classic SR seatpost that I bid on based on the following description.


Very fine scratches on area where it had been inserted. So fine that they don't
show up in photos.
This is a very unique looking seat post, and adds a very distinct style to any
vintage bike.


Fine I thought. Most posts get trashed the first time you insert them anyways, so this must be pretty good!

So when I paid and received the post, I quickly noticed these gouges at the back, clearly noticeable to the naked eye.



Upon contacting the seller, he seems friendly and did not notice these gouges. I clearly would not have put a bid in if I knew about them. At the moment he seems willing to reimburse me for the bid price and shipping to me, but not for return shipping.

I sent the post back today and it cost a crazy $15.00 (well, $14.91).

So my dilemma is this - should I be compensated for my shipping to him since it was clearly misrepresented? I feel like I am being punished for doing the right thing and refusing to keep the post on principle.

With the new Feedback rules in place on eBay - I no longer need to worry about receiving negative feedback in retaliation. But what should I do if I don't get compensated for my shipping cost to him? What would you do, as a buyer AND as a seller? Would you do the right thing and bite the bullet and say, "My mistake, sorry for the trouble" and reimburse me, or would you say "Reimbursing for the bid price and shipping to the buyer is good enough"? Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I think as a matter of integrity that if I did something wrong, then I should own up to it, even if it means I lost a bit of money.

This seller has 100% feedback, and my concern is that any neutral or negative feedback would make him upset, even if the feedback is accurate. I have over 600 positive feedback, and of course I pride myself on this.

So what would you do? Look at the pic and match it up with the item description, and let me know your thoughts. I plan on leaving feedback for him shortly after he receives the seatpost.

Cheers

miamijim

Without seeing the original Ebay ad its hard to say if it was misrepresented. Who pays return shipping is always a touchy subject......the best you can do is ask for a 50/50 split on the return shipping.

Where exactly are those scratches? They look like they're on the front towards the top?

patc

I've done a fair bit of ebay buying and selling... not sure what to say on this one. The scratches are worse than the description makes them sound, however I don't consider them significant.

In general, when using mail-order, you are stuck with return shipping. I would say the seller has been fair in dealing with you. Can't comment more without seeing the original posting.

daintonj

I think you're being quite the princess about some minor scratches that you would never see.

f1junkie

On the contrary, these gouges are right behind the flutes, so when properly installed on a frame, they'd be exposed for ALL to see. If you again at the pic, you can see the gouges relative to the flutes, which are mostly above the minimum insertion line. Not sure I could live with seeing them every time I cleaned the bike or looked down there - I hate scratches...


Reputable people/businesses who acknowledge that it was their mistake will own up and reimburse sellers for the shipping - it's the honest thing to do. If I ordered a 64cm frame and was 5 foot 2, well damn, of course I should foot the bill to send it back. But if I ordered a Dura Ace crankset and someone sent me Sora - would you expect to pay for something you were not responsible for? I don't see why I should be stuck with the shipping back of an item that was not as described. I wasn't expecting a NOS seatpost, but I wasn't expecting gouges above the insertion line either - the description didn't mention those and I certainly would not have wasted my time bidding.

I wouldn't have given a flying fig had the gouges been below the minimum insertion line...

I've PM'ed people who said they needed to see the original eBay post.

No matter what, the seatpost has been sent, and I'll see what the seller decides to do with the situation. I know what I would do, but I'm not like most people, as my GF says... At the end of the day it's more a matter of principle - it didn't really matter if it was a $0.01 paperclip or a $250,000 Ferrari - just be accurate with your descriptions and all will be good.

Cheers

f1junkie

Here's the pic with some text to better show where the scratches are...

knobster

I would contact him again and say that since these scratches weren't properly displayed in the ad that he should pay the return shipping as well. It wasn't your mistake.
I had a incident once like this as well, but it was a model misrepresentation. I bought a Ti Eddy Merckx Majestic frame and when I got it, it was a Titanium AX frame. That's a big difference. Guy offered a complete refund and all shipping. Your person should do the same.

f1junkie

Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks rationally.

Cheers

miamijim

Lets try this picture.....it measures 28mm on my monitor.

My question is this, would you have bought the post if this picture was in the ad?

f1junkie

This picture looks really tiny on my computer... Maybe it's a photobucket issue?

Anyways, there is no way on Marco Pantani's grave that I would have even considered looking a second longer at this eBay auction, had it included a picture like I took. This, coupled with the simple description in the listing, is what is cheesing me off regarding this situation. In the grand scheme of things, it's a seatpost, there are bigger fish to fry of course, but still leaves me with a bad feeling in my stomach.

After looking at my photo, would this have made sense?


Very fine scratches on area where it had been inserted. So fine that they don't show up in photos.
This is a very unique looking seat post, and adds a very distinct style to any vintage bike.

Thanks

Bluechip

So anyone who disagrees with your opinion is not thinking rationally? The item was not exactly as described but far from being enough to send it back. How much did you pay for it in the first place? Was it really worth the time and effort sending it back with out knowing if you will be reimbursed? It didn't look that bad to me and might have even polished out. But it's your time and money and you can do what ever you want. Good luck.

AdamSimpson

Why did it cost so much to get it shipped? Did they package it as well? To be honest that's a ridiculous price for shipping a seat post.

f1junkie

I guess I take that back then. Like I mentioned, I consider it bad mojo to keep something if it was received not as described. I think it makes me ill when I look at it, so why bother. I paid about $16 for it, but it really is all about principle. I've had a few people comment that the gouges aren't really that bad - that's not the point. The fact that it was described as being in much better shape than I thought it what is bugging me. In my mind, of course it wasn't worth the money to send it back if I don't get reimbursed for it, but I was raised to do the right thing, and sending it back, to me, at the very least shows the seller that someone was cheesed off enough to send it back. I work as a teacher, and so I also try to teach my students to stand up for themselves. Most sellers (I hope) would take this as a small message and try to do the right thing - whether this is rational or not I'd rather not say to avoid getting into trouble again

I packaged it, and sent it from Canada - what can I say? I think it's to get back at Canadians for having a better life than Americans (statistically speaking).


To further add to the discussion - would I be considered a nutjob if you were the seller and I replied and mentioned the irregularities with the seatpost and the actual condition? What would you do? With eBay sellers not allowed to leave negative feedback, is the current system worse for sellers? It used to be as a seller you either gave positive feedback or none at all, just in case the sellers had a beef with you...

I'm a bit disturbed by some people's mention of price and "it's not too bad". While I am not like this all the time, I have over 600 positive feedback on eBay, so it's not like I go nuts with every transaction. I've gone so far as to not say anything for very low dollar transactions when I've not received them - this was when sellers were allowed to leave negative feedback just to be jerks.

The saga continues - hope I'm not getting too 'deep' for people, I just like hearing what people think about how one should conduct themselves online, and on eBay.

Cheers

patc

It may be honest, but still not all that common, particularly for such a small ticket item. I do most of my shopping online, and am pleasantly surprised when a business pays for shipping costs on a return for low value mistakes.

mandovoodoo

In the US, see the UCC. Reject as not meeting the contract description. Give seller a chance to cure. If he doesn't, ask for money back and ask seller what he wants you to do with the item. Ship back at his expense. Default rules. I've been on both sides of this, it's fair. Can also approach as an express warranty of description issue.

ShadowGray

Isn't the point to have a small "ebay" picture? I guess when it's that small, the fine scratches don't show up!

KevinF

It sounds like the only thing you are "out" right now is the $14.91 it took to ship the seatpost back to the original seller. It just seems like you've spent more then $14.91 in time and effort creating this thread. Just let it go. What's the purpose of this thread anyway? So you can tell the original seller that 62% of the BikeForums community think that you're being cheap by not paying return shipping?

Bekologist

"I consider it bad mojo if something to keep something if it was received not as described..."

clearly a gold-ribbon consumer!!!

dude. scratches BELOW minimum insertion line.

You ordered a seatpost with mention of scratches. suck it up and install a seatpost advertised as having scratches.

f1junkie

No, in my edited pic, I wrote that the scratches were way ABOVE the insertion line, right behind the decorative flutes... (see above picture with text). As a teacher, I'll let that one go - I work on correcting children enough times in a year

Fine scratches are different than gouges - if you don't agree, you MUST be a used car salesman... Perhaps someone knows where I can find a "lightly used" demolition derby car for cheap?

I was hoping to have some intellectual discussion here, but it seems most people are jumping right at the price of the seatpost and the fact that it's "not that bad".

Here's an analogy - what if you ordered a steak medium rare at a restaurant and they gave you one that was well done? What would you say if the server said - "it's not that bad", or "it's the same piece of meat, suck it up and eat it", or "food is food, deal with it"? This was the type of conversation I was hoping for - perhaps it's best done face-to-face with real people and not individuals with "keyboard courage".

I've PM'ed a few more people a link of the auction.

Glad to see free speech is alive and well here, EH!

miamijim

I guess what irked me about the whole deal was the original Ebay pic. The scratches*, which were noted the seller, are on the BACK of the post. What kind of picture does the seller post? A picture of the FRONT.

enuff said /thread

Bluechip

Here's another analogy. You go to a familiy style resturaunt and check out the steak menu. You read the description of thier porterhouse and it sounds very tasty. You order one medium rare and when it arrives it's medium rare but it isn't of the quality of a 4 star resturaunt's steak that you had some time before. You send it back to the kitchen and ask for your monery back and for your gas money to get to the resturaunt. Then you go on a steak forum and ask for opinions as to whether you did the right thing. As with any forum some agree and some disagree with your actions and some just think you are making too much about nothing. Go ride your bike and put some new scratches on it.

J.C. Koto

MMmmm. Now where's this steak forum you mentioned?

Denny Koll

You would have been better off selling it to someone else.

Just make a really small picture with bad lighting.

tekknoschtev

I understand where you're coming from, trust me I do. I don't deal with eBay for many reasons but this is one of them (though my burn set me back more than $350 and wasn't bike related).

That said, the effort and time put into it wasn't worth a "principle" in my opinion. Yes, the item was not as described, but how much time and effort went into sending it back? The shipping was almost as much as the seat post, and truthfully, I've never had a seller of anything willing to pay return shipping unless I paid for some extra insurance or had a warranty plan that included return shipping (I'm thinking laptops here, so it is clearly a bit different but still). Its situations like this where you wind up seeing ebay item descriptions which have longer legal-speak regarding returns, refunds, exchanges than the actual item description.

Now that I think about it, I had an issue exactly like this. I paid $60 for a laptop battery which the company said would fit my machine. It did not, not even close. Cost me $30 to ship it back because I was also told that if it was "lost" in the mail, I'd not be getting a refund so I paid for insurance and delivery confirmation with signature. They clearly spelled out that only defective items would be refunded with return shipping compensation but given that the battery was not defective in and of itself, I was out the return shipping. It sucks, but it seems that's the price for dealing with internet orders.

Yes, the scratches would have been an itch that I couldn't scratch (I've got similar issues with my car) but at some point you do have to take into account the time and "stress" and such involved in fixing the problem. With that out of the way, it can't hurt to ask, but I don't believe the seller is under any legal obligation to refund the money for return shipping. I guess there's always options (small claims) but that's obviously putting far more time and effort (and likely money) into this than is worthwhile unless you are very set on principles.

d2create

Regardless of if the "scratches aren't that bad", they are prominent enough to should have been displayed in the auction. The mere fact that they were not, and only described (somewhat falsely) on the listing just proves that the seller was trying to hide it and hope the buyer wasn't anal enough to care. Or care enough to pursue a refund and bother sending it back.

And as far as shipping goes, the cost and quite honestly the red tape/hassle of shipping out of the country is exactly why I will not ship ebay items outside the usa anymore. And when asked I'm honest and tell people that I'm too lazy to deal with it, sorry.