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  1. #26
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    I just made a quick trip to the drugstore... It's about 10:30 here in Brooklyn, and as I pulled up to a light that was turing red, a police car pulled alongside me. Remembering this thread, I stopped and sat it out, though I'd normally have slowed, looked, and breezed through at this hour... The cop rolled down his window and asked if I was all right - he'd never seen a bike actually sit through a red light at night before

    -chris

  2. #27
    GT enthusiast midwestmntnbkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    The quota thing that every one thinks law inforcment officers have to follow is nothing but a big urban myth. There is no so called ticket quota that officers have to follow that says how many tickets they have to write each month. How do I know this? Simple, I asked the police departments in 5 differant cities, 2 of them are in 2 other states. I also asked 3 differant state patrol departments in 3 differant states, & 4 differant county sheriffs departments, 2 of those are in 2 differant states. Everyone had the same answer, it is a big untrue urban myth. And no one knows where or how it even got started. So the fact that redfooj got a ticket had nothing to do with the so-called quota.

    Your info is not correct for everywhere. I have worked for 2 different cities where I am in close contact with the police officers and they DO have a quota. It is not called a quota, that would be wrong to have that...it is called a monthly ticket expectation. OR many "other" names that simply mean "you better write so many tickets or else your evaluation is going to be poor" I don't know how well you knew the officers you talked to, but if you were not in good with them, they would not tell you about the standards that are expected. It is not something that law enforcement wants out to the public. (I guess I just blew that secret) I have many, many close friends that are cops and trust me, most cities have a standard of some sort that must be met for their monthly duty log to be complete. Everyday they fill out a sheet that has every thing they did that day. Stops, tickets, warnings, citizen contacts, building checks on and on. These are all tallied at the end of the month for a comparison of who's pulling their weight and who is slacking.

    Quota's are alive and well in the good 'ol US of A and don't think they aren't.
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  3. #28
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    tell me you've never jaywalked, or driven 5mph over on the freeway.
    Yes I have and when I get caught I don't complain I pay the damn ticket. By your own description you admit breaking the law. Explain to me why you should be treated different than anyone else caught running a red light.
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  4. #29
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    I just made a quick trip to the drugstore... It's about 10:30 here in Brooklyn, and as I pulled up to a light that was turing red, a police car pulled alongside me. Remembering this thread, I stopped and sat it out, though I'd normally have slowed, looked, and breezed through at this hour... The cop rolled down his window and asked if I was all right - he'd never seen a bike actually sit through a red light at night before

    -chris
    Lucky you didn't get a ticket for loitering.

  5. #30
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Yes I have and when I get caught I don't complain I pay the damn ticket. By your own description you admit breaking the law. Explain to me why you should be treated different than anyone else caught running a red light.
    i dont want to tire out in reiteration... do all theft crimes result in the exact same sentences? not everybody lives in your black-and-white world. i dont know about you, but i plan to take full appellate priviledges and due process afforded to me . people like you who are so quick to kneel are the ones who put cops in wasteful shiny camaro z28s every year.... but thats another story altogether

  6. #31
    2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM slvoid's Avatar
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    I think also the difference is that a car blazing through a light at 50mph can cause serious injury or death.
    A bike blazing through a light at an astounding 5mph with good visibility of both sides of the EMPTY intersection by the biker is slightly different.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    I asked the police departments in 5 differant cities, 2 of them are in 2 other states. I also asked 3 differant state patrol departments in 3 differant states, & 4 differant county sheriffs departments, 2 of those are in 2 differant states. Everyone had the same answer, it is a big untrue urban myth.
    I asked OJ if he killed his wife, he said - "no, it's an urban myth". Nuff said.

  8. #33
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    i dont want to tire out in reiteration... do all theft crimes result in the exact same sentences? not everybody lives in your black-and-white world. i dont know about you, but i plan to take full appellate priviledges and due process afforded to me . people like you who are so quick to kneel are the ones who put cops in wasteful shiny camaro z28s every year.... but thats another story altogether

    Eccuses excuses, you broke the law knowingly stop your b!tchin and pay your fine. Next time think twice before you put yourself above the law.

    You see the way I was brought up an adult excepts responsibility for his/her actions. So did what you do break the law(yes)? If the cop had seen anyone else run that red light would they have ticked them? (yes) Do not use other peoples crimes to excuse yours.

    And if you think the fine is unreasonable go to court and find it, but stop whinning about getting a ticket you deserved it!
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  9. #34
    cycle-powered nathank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Don't get to upset over this, you were clearly in the wrong and admitted as much. It is cyclists like you who break the law that give the rest of us a bad name. It pisses me off every time a cyclist complains they got a ticket for breaking the law. You do realize this makes it harder for the rest of us who are trying to advocate for better cyclists rights and conditions on the road don't you? Why in the hell can't some cyclists get a clue on matters like this? I commend the officers for citing you, next time obey the damn law & stop making it harder for us advocates!
    i totally disagree... it is one thing to want "equal treatment under the law" but that will NEVER mean that riding a bike is the same as riding a car - or driving a tractor or a semi --- diferent vechicles are different

    i agree more with jfmckenna ---
    the *reasons* it is illegal for a motor vehicle to run a red light:
    1) so as not to endanger others who have the right of way
    2) to control traffic and allow for good traffic flow and reduce chances of collisions

    ok, under low traffic in the middle of the night #2 is reduced.
    now, looking at point 1, the RISK that a car or truck presents to OTHERS in running a red light is very high --- i.e. the driver thinks it is clear and runs the red light but somehow makes a mistake and a vehicle who has the right of way must stop/avoid or have a collision... even worse if a pediatrian is unseen. now if a cyclist makes the same mistake (not seeing cross-trafic) the danger is almost entirely carried by he cylcist HIMSELF!!!

    one of the advantages to riding a bicylce is that they are smaller, require less space, less parker AND MOST NOTABLY create a MUCH lower risk for others in society than motor vehicles with CONSIDERABLE more size and mass and higher speeds...

    thus, IF it is even illegal for a cyclist to go through a red light when traffic is low and after safely stopping and checking and then cautiously processing (i believe it should be LEGAL), but if it is against the law, the PENALTY should definitely not be anywhere near that of doiong the same in a car --- as doing so in the car IS really something endangering others!!!
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  10. #35
    cycle-powered nathank's Avatar
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    [/quote=brokenrobot]I just made a quick trip to the drugstore... It's about 10:30 here in Brooklyn, and as I pulled up to a light that was turing red, a police car pulled alongside me. Remembering this thread, I stopped and sat it out, though I'd normally have slowed, looked, and breezed through at this hour... The cop rolled down his window and asked if I was all right - he'd never seen a bike actually sit through a red light at night before [/quote]
    yes, true URBAN areas are really different. although in Munich you are technically required to wait for the lights and can be fined (i think it's 10) the fine for doing the same in a car is MUCH higher - over 100

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    You see the way I was brought up an adult excepts responsibility for his/her actions. So did what you do break the law(yes)? If the cop had seen anyone else run that red light would they have ticked them? (yes) Do not use other peoples crimes to excuse yours.
    well i agree to some extent but not really... i disagree with the "breaking the law on a bike gives cyclists a bad name" and the whole thing about being righteous and NEVER breaking the law... there is almost NO driver on US streets who does not regularly break laws, the speed LIMIT being the most obvious (yes, techically, even 1mph OVER the speed limit is breaking the law)

    that being said i do agree with the "taking responsibility", but in that case i think that means responsibility in the event of an accident -- i.e. if a cyclist runs a red light and then is hit by a car then he should not sue (barring unusual cercumstances like someone driving without lights or 100mph) --- but fighting against unreasonable fines that are designed to punish a much more serious crime (running a red light in a motor vehicle and thereby endangering others) is NOT not taking responsibility!

    Quote Originally Posted by slvoid
    I think also the difference is that a car blazing through a light at 50mph can cause serious injury or death.
    A bike blazing through a light at an astounding 5mph with good visibility of both sides of the EMPTY intersection by the biker is slightly different.
    exactly
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  11. #36
    SSP
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    re:
    "now if a cyclist makes the same mistake (not seeing cross-trafic) the danger is almost entirely carried by he cylcist HIMSELF!!!"

    Not necessarily true, especially at night. There was a recent case in Florida, where a drunk woman on a bike rode into traffic at night. In trying to avoid her, a serious accident resulted with someone in a car getting killed.

    re:
    "one of the advantages to riding a bicylce is that they are smaller, require less space, less parker AND MOST NOTABLY create a MUCH lower risk for others in society than motor vehicles with CONSIDERABLE more size and mass and higher speeds..."

    By this logic, anyone in a small car should be able to get their speeding or red light running fines reduced because their vehicles have less mass. Even though I sympathize with the cyclist who got the ticket, this approach would create a nightmare for the legal system.

    IMO, the guy who got the ticket should explain the scenario to the judge, apologize to the court, and hope for the best. Fighting it in court will just waste tax money that could be spent on more important things.
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  12. #37
    GT enthusiast midwestmntnbkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bac
    I asked OJ if he killed his wife, he said - "no, it's an urban myth". Nuff said.

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    you're taking up too much space"


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  13. #38
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathank
    [/quote=brokenrobotthat being said i do agree with the "taking responsibility", but in that case i think that means responsibility in the event of an accident -- i.e. if a cyclist runs a red light and then is hit by a car then he should not sue (barring unusual cercumstances like someone driving without lights or 100mph) --- but fighting against unreasonable fines that are designed to punish a much more serious crime (running a red light in a motor vehicle and thereby endangering others) is NOT not taking responsibility!


    exactly
    Do you actually believe this or is this a April Fools prank. The red light is there for a reason not to slow down a bike as posted above it can be dangerous to run a red light.

    And if you do not think your actions as a cyclist do not effect everybodies overall opinion of bikes your are living in a very unrealistic world
    Matthew 6

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyze-guy
    I find it humourous that cyclists want to be treated with respect on the road, that is to be recognised as a "motorised vehicle" by cars and the police, then complain when they are caught for breaking the law. Why should the law discriminate between car and bicycle? You can't have it both ways.
    I have to agree. I hate the ticket for you, but we are bound by the same laws and we should suffer the same consequences as cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyze-guy
    If we, as cyclists, want to be treated with the same concideration on the road as cars, we have to follow the same rules.
    And if we have to follow the same rules, the lights should turn green for us (within a reasonable amount of time) just like they do for a car or a truck, and they should stay green long enough for us to get through the intersection. One intersection down the street from my house absolutely WILL NOT turn green unless there is a car waiting or someone presses the crosswalk button. I've sat there for as long as 30 minutes (with no traffic at all) waiting for that light before a car finally came up behind me and triggered the sensors. To make matters worse, I started moving as soon as the light turned green, and it was red by the time I got halfway through the intersection (about 8 to 10 seconds after it turned green). I had to come through that intersection every night for a month, it got to the point where I KNEW the signal was defective, so I just treated it like a stop sign (stop, make sure it's safe to go, then go). A cop saw me one night, I stopped at the AM/PM he was parked at and he was about to write me a ticket until I explained that I can't sit there forever and wait for a light that's never going to change.

  16. #41
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justin sane
    I've sat there for as long as 30 minutes (with no traffic at all) waiting for that light before a car finally came up behind me and triggered the sensors.
    Can I presume that you are exaggerating slightly here, if you are you are more patient than I . You have even shown me the solution in what you say that is press the crosswalk button. And bikes can change the sensors on almost all of them out there these days all you need to do is learn how to use them. Call your local DOT and I even bet they will tell you how to do it. And if that doesn't work they can adjust them to work.

    Now lets go back to the original question and not the ifs ands or buts. You are at a red light and you decide to run it, be an adult and except responsibility for your actions do not whine about getting a ticket if you do.

    Everybody seems to be so full of excuses these days that no one really feels responsible when they do something wrong.

    I am really not that legalistic, but at 47 years old I guess I grew up in different times and I am tired of hearing people blame others for what they have done wrong or just not taking responsibility for their actions. Like being mad for getting a ticket or blaming fast food restaurants because they are not responsible enough to realize if they live on a diet of that stuff they will get fat. Or I can raid Iraq because the last president lied etc etc etc.

    What ever happened to personal responsibility and integrity?
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  17. #42
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Can I presume that you are exaggerating slightly here, if you are you are more patient than I . You have even shown me the solution in what you say that is press the crosswalk button.
    That depends where the place the crosswalk button, and indeed whether that is functional. A non-functional crosswalk button is not beyond the realms of possibility. Personally I'd rather rely on the law that allows me to proceed through a faulty set of traffic lights once I have complied with the spirit of the law and ensured that no crashes will result.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    What ever happened to personal responsibility and integrity?
    That depends on your definition of personal responsibility and integrity. If I may quote you from a couple of posts ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    And if you do not think your actions as a cyclist do not effect everybodies overall opinion of bikes your are living in a very unrealistic world
    If you're complying with the law because of how you think others will perceive you, this is not an example of personal integrity by any means. Essentially it means that as soon as you set foot in this part of the world, you would start breaking the law left, right and centre simply because that is what would earn you "respect" from the people who live here (I know). In fact, you'd quit cycling outright as Queensland is the place that basically invented bigotry. Tell me, should people have to change their way of life just to suit what a few bigots think? This is hardly a case of personal integrity.

    If, on the other hand, you're doing as I do, and complying with the spirit of the law because it is a safer option for both yourself and those around you (i.e. yeilding where you're supposed to, but being realistic if it's 4.30am and there's no traffic to impede on that red light in front of you), then it becomes a case of personal integrity.

    What I want to know is this. In view of the above quote -- which situation are you referring to?
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by justin sane
    And if we have to follow the same rules, the lights should turn green for us (within a reasonable amount of time) just like they do for a car or a truck, and they should stay green long enough for us to get through the intersection.
    I agree with you on this too! That's why both cyclists and motorcyclists successfully lobbied, here in Tennessee, for a law that allows us to go through a red light if we have waited a reasonable amount of time and it has not changed.

  19. #44
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pletcgm
    I agree with you on this too! That's why both cyclists and motorcyclists successfully lobbied, here in Tennessee, for a law that allows us to go through a red light if we have waited a reasonable amount of time and it has not changed.
    The faulty signal law applies to cars as well.
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  20. #45
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    That depends where the place the crosswalk button, and indeed whether that is functional. A non-functional crosswalk button is not beyond the realms of possibility. Personally I'd rather rely on the law that allows me to proceed through a faulty set of traffic lights once I have complied with the spirit of the law and ensured that no crashes will result.



    That depends on your definition of personal responsibility and integrity. If I may quote you from a couple of posts ago:



    If you're complying with the law because of how you think others will perceive you, this is not an example of personal integrity by any means. Essentially it means that as soon as you set foot in this part of the world, you would start breaking the law left, right and centre simply because that is what would earn you "respect" from the people who live here (I know). In fact, you'd quit cycling outright as Queensland is the place that basically invented bigotry. Tell me, should people have to change their way of life just to suit what a few bigots think? This is hardly a case of personal integrity.

    If, on the other hand, you're doing as I do, and complying with the spirit of the law because it is a safer option for both yourself and those around you (i.e. yeilding where you're supposed to, but being realistic if it's 4.30am and there's no traffic to impede on that red light in front of you), then it becomes a case of personal integrity.

    What I want to know is this. In view of the above quote -- which situation are you referring to?
    No Chris there is no question about what I mean by personal responsibility and intergity and all you chose tyo bring up is excetions to the rule and something completly out of context. But we have been down this road before haven't we?
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  21. #46
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Why do you have to obey the law? Because it's the law.

    Why do the 'piggies' give tickets for bikes running red lights? Because running a red light is against the law and it's the 'piggies' job to cite people who break the traffic laws.

    Why do bikes have the same rules as cars? Because that way we all act in a predictable manner. If bike have one set of rules, and motorcycles another, and cars another, and tractor trailers another, then how do we keep straight whether a motorcycle following an 18 wheeler is supposed to signal before popping a wheelie in a school zone?

    If you don't like the law, that's fine. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences. However, you do not have to wait for a car to come by and trip a traffic light for you. If the light will not sense your bike, you are permitted to proceed when it is safe to do so.

  22. #47
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Can I presume that you are exaggerating slightly here, if you are you are more patient than I .
    ...
    Like being mad for getting a ticket or blaming fast food restaurants because they are not responsible enough to realize if they live on a diet of that stuff they will get fat. Or I can raid Iraq because the last president lied etc etc etc.
    and the analogous comparison of my considered disregard of the red light to these examples isnt a hyperbolic exaggeration?


    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    Why do you have to obey the law? Because it's the law.
    now ask yourself... WHY are there such laws? consider that and its applicability to the situation at hand


    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    Why do bikes have the same rules as cars?
    they dont. fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    Because that way we all act in a predictable manner. If bike have one set of rules, and motorcycles another, and cars another, and tractor trailers another, then how do we keep straight whether a motorcycle following an 18 wheeler is supposed to signal before popping a wheelie in a school zone?
    they all do have a different set of rules

    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    If you don't like the law, that's fine. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences. However, you do not have to wait for a car to come by and trip a traffic light for you. If the light will not sense your bike, you are permitted to proceed when it is safe to do so.
    at which point in time do you draw the line for whats permissible or not. at the 2 minute minute mark? 2 minutes 17 seconds? some other arbitrary time division? the underlining key is safety, and if i project full visibility to others, and the intersection is completely clear, is it not as safe?

  23. #48
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    at which point in time do you draw the line for whats permissible or not. at the 2 minute minute mark? 2 minutes 17 seconds? some other arbitrary time division?
    One full cycle of the lights should be sufficient to tell whether it's sensed you or not.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  24. #49
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister
    One full cycle of the lights should be sufficient to tell whether it's sensed you or not.
    Exactly!

  25. #50
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister
    One full cycle of the lights should be sufficient to tell whether it's sensed you or not.
    haha, logistically, if the light cycles through (crossing turns red, yours subsequently turn green), then you wouldnt have a problem in the first place.

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