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  1. #51
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    now ask yourself... WHY are there such laws? consider that and its applicability to the situation at hand
    It doesn't matter why the laws were made. Texas law specifically states that a cyclist is subject to them except as noted in the statutes. There are no exceptions specified regarding right of way and traffic control devices. You may want to familiarize yourself with Chapter 551 of the Texas Transportation Code.

    However, although you are correct that there are certainly different regulations pertaining to different classes of vehicles, all vehicles (not just motor vehicles) are required to stop at red lights in Texas unless you are an emergency vehicle OR are being directed by a police officer at the intersection. The applicability of the law to the situation at hand is clear and unambiguous from what I can gather by reading the Transportation Code for Texas. Perhaps you know of an exception in the law that applies to your situation?


    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    at which point in time do you draw the line for whats permissible or not. at the 2 minute minute mark? 2 minutes 17 seconds? some other arbitrary time division? the underlining key is safety, and if i project full visibility to others, and the intersection is completely clear, is it not as safe?
    I tried to find the applicable law for Texas pertaining to this question. After conducting several searches and reading through the section describing right of way and traffic control devices, I can find no mention of defective sensors, let alone a time period to wait. The best I could find was a provision that stated if there were no lights displayed on any of the traffic control heads, you are to treat the signal as a stop sign.

    It would be a stretch, but you could possibly argue to a judge that the intersection could not sense your bike, and therefore it was not, in practice, a controlled intersection for you. Under such circumstance, you treated the intersection as if it had a stop sign in accordance with the uncontrolled intersection rules.

    I truly hope you do not plan to go before a judge and claim that you should be permitted to run the light because there were no other cars around (except for the police car that saw you). You are not likely to get a favorable result.

  2. #52
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    It doesn't matter why the laws were made. Texas law specifically states that a cyclist is subject to them except as noted in the statutes. There are no exceptions specified regarding right of way and traffic control devices. You may want to familiarize yourself with Chapter 551 of the Texas Transportation Code.
    So you believe in the law existing for its own sake ... without purpose or relevance? I can't see how one can be familiar with the law codes but not the judicial process

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    haha, logistically, if the light cycles through (crossing turns red, yours subsequently turn green), then you wouldnt have a problem in the first place.
    Not necessarily. Say you are in the left turn lane and the sensors detect cars wanting to come out of the side street. Their light cycles through, but your turn light never went green for you and the traffic beside you, going straight, gets the green light again, while yours is still red. That's a cycle without detecting your presence.

  4. #54
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pletcgm
    Not necessarily. Say you are in the left turn lane and the sensors detect cars wanting to come out of the side street. Their light cycles through, but your turn light never went green for you and the traffic beside you, going straight, gets the green light again, while yours is still red. That's a cycle without detecting your presence.
    regarding all cars facing one direction.. ive never seen a light (left turn vs straight) keep red for a cycle.

  5. #55
    ride'n on
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    Quote Originally Posted by scroz
    what about those dumbass traffic lights that don't recognise when a bike has pulled up? Do you just have a picnic on the road and wait for a car?

    Over here in the west most are like that,
    leading up to some street intersection lights have triangles painted on the road when riden over, they change the lights.The worst thing I find is when pedestrians walk againts ths red walk light.

  6. #56
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    No Chris there is no question about what I mean by personal responsibility and intergity and all you chose tyo bring up is excetions to the rule and something completly out of context.
    On the contrary. I'm a little confused by what you mean by personal responsibility. Are you saying personal responsibility means being a safe road user, or a popular road user? I can tell you now that the two are not always the same thing. Only today I had to claim the lane for 3km straight to avoid being sideswiped into the gutter. Probably didn't make me too popular, but got me home safely. So tell me, was I demonstrating personal integrity or not?
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  7. #57
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    haha, logistically, if the light cycles through (crossing turns red, yours subsequently turn green), then you wouldnt have a problem in the first place.
    Yes that's true, but I've been at intersections late at night that cycle through more than one direction (ie there are turning lanes with their own cycle) and the side I was sitting at was prioritised to only change when traffic was sensed. After a cycle or two and no cars happening along to trigger it I went through the red.

    That said, I get your point. It's fairly clear if a light hasn't registered you presence though. It's not something that happens to me often enough for me to get too concerned about. This subject only ever seems to come up in these Running Red Light discussions as a bit of a red herring when someone's lawlessness is brought to question.

    Put it this way. I have no problem with you running red lights*: it's a matter between you and your conscience. However, if you get caught and want to use the Faulty Light Defence then think of it at the time, not in court - it just wastes time - and be prepared to prove it. If you want to get off with a warning, be humble, polite, and profusely apologetic, but if that doesn't work, take the ticket and shut up.



    * I don't do it myself (any more) and certainly don't encourage it, but I don't get all upset when I see someone do it.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  8. #58
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    On the contrary. I'm a little confused by what you mean by personal responsibility. Are you saying personal responsibility means being a safe road user, or a popular road user? I can tell you now that the two are not always the same thing. Only today I had to claim the lane for 3km straight to avoid being sideswiped into the gutter. Probably didn't make me too popular, but got me home safely. So tell me, was I demonstrating personal integrity or not?
    Let me spell it out for you because you are confused (or confusing) what I am saying Allistar pretty much summed it up. It has nothing ot do with being safe or popular. It has to do with accepting responsibility of your ACTIONS. So if you chose to break the law (and faulty equipment is not the issue here) you as an adult accept the consiquences that become of it. Otherwise known as stop your whinning and pay you ticket.

    Standing ypu ground when it comes to your legal right has nothing to do with breaking the law does it? Why,do you whenever I mention my thoughts on law breaking cloud the issue with situation that are either not the norm (faulty lights) or legal (taking your lane for safety issues)?
    Matthew 6

  9. #59
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    So you believe in the law existing for its own sake ... without purpose or relevance? I can't see how one can be familiar with the law codes but not the judicial process
    I don't think that you prevail by making an argument that the law does not have a purpose or is relevent to the situation unless you can show how you were legally exempted from compliance. But, if that's how you want to defend yourself in court, I wish you luck.

    Would you let us know when your court date is and report back on how you argued you case and the outcome? If you are successful, it may be useful to others.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Eccuses excuses, you broke the law knowingly stop your b!tchin and pay your fine. Next time think twice before you put yourself above the law.
    I've often wondered what is the law? Seriously. Our friend put himself above the law but if he gets a good lawyer, I can assure you that the end result will be no ticket at all. That's America folks. A good lawyer can make this ticket dissappear and thus enabeling him to be above the law. The law can be challenged with money and is often defeated. You see it all the time on television. This law protects us but make no doubt about it. It can be purchased like anything else.

    About a year ago, I ran a red light in New York City and was given a court date. Upon arriving, I was approached by two very sexy young girls who told me the ticket would put points on my license and raise my insurance if I owned a motor car. I paid their "lawyer" his fee of $125.00 dollars as the next infraction would cost over $200.00 dollars.

    Watching the whole thing saddend me. My case never went to the judge because the officer upon meeting with my "lawyer", turned and walked away. The case was tossed out. I sat there and watched my lawyer and the judge laugh at other officers as they presented rock solid cases only to see them get tossed. I then realized the sad truth.

    1. The rules of the road are the following: There are no rules. Someone can kill me or you tomorrow and not spend a day in jail. You have to hope the guy that kills you can't afford legal defense and has no insurance because the "law" may not protect you if he gets a good one! I often wonder about that comment that we should be treated like motor vehicles when riding on city streets. How many times have we seen a cyclists killed and the motorist spends no time in jail because he didn't see the bicycle? Is this justice? We see motorists killing each other all the time and no one spend time in prison! Is this how we want to be treated? I repeat. Is this how you want to be treated?

    The fact is. As a cyclists, you will never be treated like a vehicle in an accident and you'll find this out real quickly if you should ever get hit by a moving motor car!

    I'm not saying you should not respect the lights but don't think for a second you have any rights on the road. You can say "I had the right of way" but you'll be dead right! In the end, you have to treat the situation as though you are a lone wolf with no rights at all! Your death may bring no punishment if the judge is lenient or the motorists can afford expensive legal counsel. That's the sad truth.

    2. The traffic ticket business is a joke: Yes it is a business folks. The city of New York issues tens of thousands of tickets each year and thousands are tossed out. The city collects hundreds of millions in fines and goes right into the general fund and those officers that don't issue enough tickets are quickly removed. There are loads of lawyers out there make a living defending the motorists as a result of all the fines being distributed. The New York post reported that 30% of all traffic tickets challenged are tossed out. Why?

    a. The courts know the the police are issuing an excessive number of fines because they are under a quota. Plain and simple. Therefore, they toss out thousands of tickets once they are challenged. The judge took my offense so lightly, it wasn't even thought of as an infraction and wondered why I was there to begin with. In fact, I was the only one the in the court room as most people just paid the lawyer and went home. Once I paid my lawyer, he told me I could go back to work. I didn't even have to face the judge. We were all told the law says you must stop at red lights. The real truth is: You must stop at a red light unless you have an attorney who will represent you in court to throw the ticket out. That's the hard core law folks.

    You would be surprised at the MAJOR violations the courts just toss out once a lawyer steps in and makes them disappear into thin air. It is scary folks at the type of people who are driving motor cars with multiple moving violations, no insurance or license, DWI etc, etc, etc. Upon meeting with legal counsel, many of these infractions are tossed out! I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it with my own eyes! These people are driving right along with you each day on your Monday morning commute. And you wonder why there are so many accidents? Where is the justice?? What really is the law?

    I think what I wrote above is a sad commentary on life.

    Here's my advice to our cycling friend.

    1. Find a lawyer to represent you. You have a legal right to do so. The yellow pages often have law firms that handle moving violations. Call around and find one that has an office near the courthouse. There might even be some inside the municipal court who are making a living off the motorist. Don't even think about representing yourself as they will eat you for lunch. The lawyer will cost just as much if not more than the fine. You'll have to pay otherwise becuase if your insurance goes up, you'll be paying much more in the long run.

    2. There is no reason why your insurance premium should be effected ( AND IT WILL GO UP) by this cycling infraction but that is often the case. In New York City, the DMV will inform your insurance of this violation and you can bet your life your rates will go sky high!! Don't sit back and let this happen.

    3. Be careful from now on.

  11. #61
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    And everbody screams about tort reform when the only reason lawyers can exsist is because they have clients who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions.
    Matthew 6

  12. #62
    Senior Member auroch's Avatar
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    Why does everyone assume that bikers are all one big family? The actions of 1 biker does not represent the actions of everyone else just like the actions of 1 crazy driver do not cast anything on any other driver. I hate reading gross generalizations about how teenagers are bad drivers, or cell phones are bad, or soccer moms, or mid-life crisis men... Correlation does not represent causality. Bikers who run reds can be safe (look at some couriers). the same way bikers who stop at reds can be dangerous

    If you lived your life based soley on the expectations you have of other people you'd be in a constant state of disarray. I assume no one sees me on my bike, so I ride in as safe a manner accordingly. For me that means running reds, yellow lanes, and one way streets. All anyone can do is ride how they see fit.

  13. #63
    Yup pyze-guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerguy
    Why does everyone assume that bikers are all one big family? The actions of 1 biker does not represent the actions of everyone else just like the actions of 1 crazy driver do not cast anything on any other driver. I hate reading gross generalizations about how teenagers are bad drivers, or cell phones are bad, or soccer moms, or mid-life crisis men... Correlation does not represent causality. Bikers who run reds can be safe (look at some couriers). the same way bikers who stop at reds can be dangerous

    If you lived your life based soley on the expectations you have of other people you'd be in a constant state of disarray. I assume no one sees me on my bike, so I ride in as safe a manner accordingly. For me that means running reds, yellow lanes, and one way streets. All anyone can do is ride how they see fit.
    So therefore safe=I can do whatever I want. Lovely.
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  14. #64
    Senior Member sarsparilla's Avatar
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    my dad got a speeding ticket once. He was on his bike going down a big hill to get to our house that people usually like to pick up some speed on. he just paid the ticket because of the reasons that you guys just stated. He broke the law. Oh well, he's over it and we're all happy again. It makes for good stories too.

  15. #65
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerguy
    Why does everyone assume that bikers are all one big family? The actions of 1 biker does not represent the actions of everyone else just like the actions of 1 crazy driver do not cast anything on any other driver. I hate reading gross generalizations about how teenagers are bad drivers, or cell phones are bad, or soccer moms, or mid-life crisis men... Correlation does not represent causality. Bikers who run reds can be safe (look at some couriers). the same way bikers who stop at reds can be dangerous

    If you lived your life based soley on the expectations you have of other people you'd be in a constant state of disarray. I assume no one sees me on my bike, so I ride in as safe a manner accordingly. For me that means running reds, yellow lanes, and one way streets. All anyone can do is ride how they see fit.
    First off even though it is wrong they do lump us in the same category, so if you think the actions of a few do not affect the whole you do not have a realistic grasp on the situation. Sort of a denial thing.

    Next, and no one has been able to answer this question without excuses or justification but Why should you be able to disobey traffic laws that are required by EVERYONE who uses the road? Are you special for some reason? Did God bless in someway that makes you better than everyone else?

    Instead of complaining about some minor inconveniences why don't you think about why we have these SAFETY inspired laws in effect?
    .
    And then if you still decide to break those laws then accept responsibility for your actions, its the adult thing to do.

    A child makes excuses and gives you "reasons" why they do things wrong.

    assume= a$$ out of u and me
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  16. #66
    Senior Member auroch's Avatar
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    "assume= a$$ out of u and me" couldn't have said it better myself ngateguy.

    I don't know what happens in everett, WA but in Chicago everyone "bends" the rules.
    My point is: if no one follows the rules, then why should I? Here's the thing the law is funny about bikers. On one hand we are supposed to be treated like cars, and yet we never are. Cars treat us like annoying bugs they can squash at will. Cops will write you tickets for being on the street, then for being on sidewalks. I got hit by a car while I was standing still at a red light (like a good little citizen) twice! Did the cars get a ticket? No. So for me purely by experience I try not to stay still too long.


    SHARE THE ROAD? No one really believes that works. Its like little kids sharing toys with the school bully. The bully gets all the toys and kids go home crying. If we insist on letting everyone else dictate how we ride, we'll end up being forced into only riding on bike laned streets that go no where, full of potholes, glass, and double parked cars. Sharing would be nice, but seriously who's living in denial now.

    Don't take my opinions the wrong way. I respect everyone elses opinions and I can see merit in them. Just a couple last things.

    1. blindly following laws, will get you killed. Think critically
    2. Yes, I am special
    3. God has better things to worry about, than me.
    4. Safety inspired, doesn't mean they are safe (see 1.)
    5. I do accept reponsibilty for my actions
    6. adults make excuses too, with lawyers, with more success

    jeff

  17. #67
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerguy
    "assume= a$$ out of u and me" couldn't have said it better myself ngateguy.

    I don't know what happens in everett, WA but in Chicago everyone "bends" the rules.
    My point is: if no one follows the rules, then why should I? Here's the thing the law is funny about bikers. On one hand we are supposed to be treated like cars, and yet we never are. Cars treat us like annoying bugs they can squash at will. Cops will write you tickets for being on the street, then for being on sidewalks. I got hit by a car while I was standing still at a red light (like a good little citizen) twice! Did the cars get a ticket? No. So for me purely by experience I try not to stay still too long.


    SHARE THE ROAD? No one really believes that works. Its like little kids sharing toys with the school bully. The bully gets all the toys and kids go home crying. If we insist on letting everyone else dictate how we ride, we'll end up being forced into only riding on bike laned streets that go no where, full of potholes, glass, and double parked cars. Sharing would be nice, but seriously who's living in denial now.

    Don't take my opinions the wrong way. I respect everyone elses opinions and I can see merit in them. Just a couple last things.

    1. blindly following laws, will get you killed. Think critically
    2. Yes, I am special
    3. God has better things to worry about, than me.
    4. Safety inspired, doesn't mean they are safe (see 1.)
    5. I do accept reponsibilty for my actions
    6. adults make excuses too, with lawyers, with more success

    jeff
    You see what aI mean can't answer the question with out excuses like "everybody else does it" So if everybody started jumping off bridges or slicing their wrists I suppose you would too

    When a bvicycle is in the street it is considered a vehicle so yes the laws do take us into consideration.

    And God always has time for you maybe you should talk to him sometime

    Adults don't make excuses big children who think they are adults and have not mutured enough to see that all they are doing is making excuses to justify their wrongs, make excuses.
    Matthew 6

  18. #68
    pluralis majestatis redfooj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    You see what aI mean can't answer the question with out excuses like "everybody else does it" So if everybody started jumping off bridges or slicing their wrists I suppose you would too

    When a bvicycle is in the street it is considered a vehicle so yes the laws do take us into consideration.

    And God always has time for you maybe you should talk to him sometime

    Adults don't make excuses big children who think they are adults and have not mutured enough to see that all they are doing is making excuses to justify their wrongs, make excuses.
    since when did construing reasoning become a tool employed by children whereas blind compliance is that of children?


    ....


    you believe what you will... God/Ganesha/Mohammed/the Easter Bunny has no place in my life or my laws

    anyways, if everyone jumped off bridges, you'd want to be the only person left on earth?

  19. #69
    cxmagazine dot com pitboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfooj
    anyways, if everyone jumped off bridges, you'd want to be the only person left on earth?
    of course...no traffic to deal with
    Deathlap - cyclocross, training, beer,...escape hatch

  20. #70
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 165-48:17
    of course...no traffic to deal with
    You missed one really important thing. Being the last person on earth means I can run red lights
    Matthew 6

  21. #71
    cxmagazine dot com pitboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    You missed one really important thing. Being the last person on earth means I can run red lights
    hey buddy...reread the post. I AM THE LAST PERSON...you must not have realized you went off the bridge. Sorry. Can you see me waving from the bridge to you, down below?
    Deathlap - cyclocross, training, beer,...escape hatch

  22. #72
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Standing ypu ground when it comes to your legal right has nothing to do with breaking the law does it? Why,do you whenever I mention my thoughts on law breaking cloud the issue with situation that are either not the norm (faulty lights) or legal (taking your lane for safety issues)?
    Around here at least, faulty lights are the norm. In fact, there are several near my place that I know won't work (you tend to figure these things out after dealing with an intersection 1,000+ times). This is not clouding the issue, this is bringing up a very relevant issue to the discussion. As far as the legal actions go, it was in response to a point you continually make:

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    First off even though it is wrong they do lump us in the same category, so if you think the actions of a few do not affect the whole you do not have a realistic grasp on the situation. Sort of a denial thing.
    You seem to think that we should follow the laws of the road to avoid making motorists hate us. I was merely pointing out that many legal actions will have that effect anyway. Basically, there's no point walking on eggshells to try to avoid upsetting motorists -- it simply won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    It has to do with accepting responsibility of your ACTIONS. So if you chose to break the law (and faulty equipment is not the issue here) you as an adult accept the consiquences that become of it. Otherwise known as stop your whinning and pay you ticket.
    This is, in fact, what I do -- although I've never actually had a ticket to pay. I have to admit I am kind of hoping to get one for speeding on my bike, just so I can frame it and hang it on my wall . However, if you're following the road rules, you should be doing it for the right reasons -- I.e. that you perceive it as the right thing to do. If it's down to an issue of "someone out there won't like me otherwise", you're really no different morally from the people who break the laws all the time.
    "I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
    "We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
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  23. #73
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Clarify once again for you Chris what I saidd was

    If you think that your actions while riding a bike doesn't affect the whole of bike riders you hav an unrealistic view of the world.

    Not don't break the law because nobody will like me then

    There is a huge difference.

    Stay on the subject

    I have never implied that the only reason to obey the law is so that car drivers will like us. But no one has ever answered the following question with out using excuses and that is

    Why should a bicycle be able to diregaurd the same laws that EVERYBODY else is required to obey?

    ps: I used to have a spoeeding ticket on my wall at work I got about 15 years ago
    Matthew 6

  24. #74
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Clarify once again for you Chris what I saidd was

    If you think that your actions while riding a bike doesn't affect the whole of bike riders you hav an unrealistic view of the world.

    Not don't break the law because nobody will like me then

    There is a huge difference.
    Only if you disregard the similarities. Tell me, if you weren't concerned about nobody liking you, why would you care what others do? Why would it matter whether "your actions affect the whole of bike riders", if you're unconcerned about what that effect will be? I can only assume that you have some concerns in this area because you keep bringing up that first quote. If you're not concerned about drivers apparently not liking you, why is it an issue?

    Frankly, I really don't care what motorists think of me, after almost a decade of almost daily abuse I've learned to ignore them. If they judge me by the actions of others, they are merely uninformed, which is their problem, not mine. If they take their actions beyond abuse, I'll take the matter up with the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    I have never implied that the only reason to obey the law is so that car drivers will like us. But no one has ever answered the following question with out using excuses and that is

    Why should a bicycle be able to diregaurd the same laws that EVERYBODY else is required to obey?
    The answer is, of course, that it shouldn't. However, let's look at this from a real-world perspective. I see motorists and pedestrians break the law everyday and make excuses. Forget about whether it's right or wrong, it happens. Until we have a legal framework that prevents this from happening (which is something I would support), it's going to continue to happen. Why should cyclists be debarred from using the same excuses as everyone else? Face it, legal representation and "challenging the charge" is considered a divine right by society these days. Why should a cyclist deprive themselves of this "right" when nobody else does?

    Personally I'd prefer to see everyone just accept the consequences and shut up, but I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon. As a result, I will continue to act in a manner that leaves my own conscience clear (and has so far left me without a traffic ticket in over 100,000km of riding), and let everyone else suffer the stress of worrying about whether "this person reflects badly on me" or "I didn't deserve that ticket" etc etc.
    "I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
    "We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
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  25. #75
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    The last time I got a ticket I was flying down a residential street, wicked downhill, through a stop sign. I quickly heard the sirens and made a quick right turn followed by a quick left turn. When the cop got close I innocentlt\y waved him past. He promptly pulled me over and said that if I had not waved him through he would have assumed I was trying to evade. After he wrote me up for the stop sign I looked down the street we were on. Every 100 meters there was another stop sign for about five blocks. I politely asked if he expected me to stop at each one. H esaid that he would be 'busy busy looking down at his paperwork' for the next few minutes.' I got on my bike and blew through every one.

    If you have to ride in a city expect to get some tickets. I defer my court cases to the off season. When hte judge looks at the vehicle make and model he usually throws it out or the cop never shows up.

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