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  1. #26
    Senior Member JasBike's Avatar
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    The Lexus got one >=)


    My town is a very rural area with lots of Mid-Upperclass type lawyers, doctors, etc.

    Not to say that all such people are like this, but a LOT of my town suffers from extreme social elitism which shows in such situations...

  2. #27
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeR
    I think that some drivers don't want a cyclist in front of them because they are afraid that the cyclist might be in danger if he/she falls in front of their car. They don't want to deal with the possibility of suddenly having someone on the ground in front of their car.
    Nope, that's not it. I don't see too many of them taking that logic at stop signs and so on.
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  3. #28
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasBike
    The Lexus got one >=)


    My town is a very rural area with lots of Mid-Upperclass type lawyers, doctors, etc.

    Not to say that all such people are like this, but a LOT of my town suffers from extreme social elitism which shows in such situations...
    Not really all that different to the lunatics in red sports-cars around here -- although I personally have more trouble with rednecks in utes.

    However, if you're being tailgated, the best thing to do is slow right down (I'm talking something like 10km/h here). It's far more effective than merely flipping the bird. I can wait all day if necessary.
    "I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
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  4. #29
    Senior Member JasBike's Avatar
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    Well I wasn't infront of them at the time. I was going slow on the side of the road merging into a sidewalk path leading to the trails. Thats when they burned past me.

  5. #30
    abc
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    I think it's mainly because drivers don't trust a cyclist do obey the law and not do something stupid. When I'm driving my car, quite frequently I see cyclists do extremely stupid things like cutting across 3 lanes of traffic without even indicating making cars slam their brakes on to avoid running them over.

    I know that none of us here would do something like that, but the car drivers just don't trust cyclists. They see just one do something illegal and their brain automatically thinks that all cyclists are the same. It's like that with most things, you don't notice something unless you're specifically looking for it. Someone in a car won't pay any attention to a cyclist riding along obeying the law, but if they see one run a red light, or cut someone off, then they'll start noticing and think how irresponsible we all are.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc
    I think it's mainly because drivers don't trust a cyclist do obey the law and not do something stupid. When I'm driving my car, quite frequently I see cyclists do extremely stupid things like cutting across 3 lanes of traffic without even indicating making cars slam their brakes on to avoid running them over.
    Yep, that's why I quit riding with the group that I used to. At a red stop light, they would take off and not wait until it turned green. I stayed and waited. Of course, I was left behind and they thought I was the stupid one. But ya, you are right. I almost hit a cyclist, with my car, that was riding at night and had no reflectors or lights. He made a u-turn across 4 lanes and I just caught a glimpse of him and slammed on my brakes. What an idiot!

  7. #32
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc
    I think it's mainly because drivers don't trust a cyclist do obey the law and not do something stupid. When I'm driving my car, quite frequently I see cyclists do extremely stupid things like cutting across 3 lanes of traffic without even indicating making cars slam their brakes on to avoid running them over.
    I think what we're overlooking here is that cyclists aren't the only ones who do stupid things and break the law. In fact, cyclists don't do it anymore often than motorists or pedestrians. However, for some reason, cyclist breaches tend to get a lot more "coverage" than breaches from everyone else. I think that reason is bigotry.
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  8. #33
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    However, for some reason, cyclist breaches tend to get a lot more "coverage" than breaches from everyone else. I think that reason is bigotry.
    I guess one could call it that. I think it's somewhat human nature to judge an entire minority group of individuals based on the actions of a few when the few display a behaviour that stands out. Let's face it, we as cyclists are a minority despite the fact that we are already representative of a greater part of society. In the greater scheme of society, we're no different than anyone else but in the much more constrained world of traffic we're definately classified as a minority road user. As such, humans being what they are try and judge others based on what information they have. Since most road users have little information about cycling and cyclists, they can only form expectations based upon what they can see and identify with. This restricted amount of information to the general public is what does cyclists harm. In general, a cyclist behaving responsibly will not get much notice from the other road users. They will have little to no impact on other traffic. This is a good thing. However, a cyclist misbehaving will make a mental mark and a noticable impact.

    Now this is where the minority factour comes into play. A motorist misbehaving will also make a mark upon another motorist but that other motorist can identify and is familiar with motorists and thus can counterbalance such impacts with the knowledge that not all motorists are like that. Afterall, he/she is also a motorist and he/she knows of other motorists that do not act in an offending manner.

    Likewise, as cyclists we do the same thing when we regard other cyclists. However a motorist who is unfamiliar with cycling will prejudge any cyclist he/she sees and at best may be uncertain as to how to handle themselves around cyclists or at worst display animosity towards that cyclist based on a previous encounter with a bad cyclist. And along the same vein, I've encountered cyclists who don't understand motorists.

    One could definately call this prejudice or bigotry... I guess. I don't know. I'm not trained to define and apply that terminology to societal behaviours but that's simply how I see things.

    Those of us who are both cyclists and motorists understand that there is really no "us" and "them" because we do not regard ourselves in any kind of minority or majority and we understand that the actions of the few bad apples should not condemn the entire orchard.

    So what's the solution? This is a social engineering problem. The solution I believe is to get the general public more involved (or at least interested/educated) with cycling. The more the general road user can identify with cyclists, the less interoperability problems will arise. Afterall, private car drivers have less problems (although some still exists) coexisting with commercial vehicle operators simply because they can identify better with them, are more accustomed to them and better understand how they behave. It's all going to boil down to education.

    P.S. If none of this is making any sense, it's probably because I've written it at 0200 localtime.
    Last edited by khuon; 04-07-04 at 04:03 AM.
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  9. #34
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khuon
    Since most road users have little information about cycling and cyclists, they can only form expectations based upon what they can see and identify with. This restricted amount of information to the general public is what does cyclists harm. In general, a cyclist behaving responsibly will not get much notice from the other road users. They will have little to no impact on other traffic. This is a good thing. However, a cyclist misbehaving will make a mental mark and a noticable impact.
    Unfortunately, in the real world, there will always be people who misbehave. While a lot of people like to preach about "bad cyclists give us all a bad name", there will always be bad cyclists, just as there will always be bad drivers or bad pedestrians -- unless we get nazi-like law enforcement to counter it. I act responsibly in traffic for pure safety reasons, yet I still get treated like crap on the roads. Only today I had four yobbos trying to pick a fight with me (good luck catching me in the traffic, dickheads!).

    The way I see it, preaching about "bad cyclists" is not going to make this problem go away. We either deal with the bigotry, or learn to live with it. I've taken the latter option -- I'm now almost totally desensitised to driver abuse. I actually think this is quite sad. To regard such behaviour as normal, where it would not be tolerated in any other facet of life.


    Quote Originally Posted by khuon
    One could definately call this prejudice or bigotry... I guess. I don't know. I'm not trained to define and apply that terminology to societal behaviours but that's simply how I see things.
    As I related in my first post in this thread, the anti-cyclist bigotry seems to be more common in areas where other forms of bigotry (be it racism, homophobia, whatever) are more prevalent. The problem is not with cyclists, just as it's not with the minority groups in the other forms of bigotry. The problem is with the bigots. To be honest, I'm really not convinced that education is the answer.

    Here in Queensland, people have had just as long as the rest of the country to get over the other forms of bigotry, yet they seem to be slow learners. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to learn to "respect" cyclists. I think the solution here comes down to law-enforcement again. They may never learn to respect cyclists, but if they become accustomed to refraining from hurling abuse/projectiles at cyclists by other means, that is good enough for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by khuon
    Afterall, private car drivers have less problems (although some still exists) coexisting with commercial vehicle operators simply because they can identify better with them, are more accustomed to them and better understand how they behave. It's all going to boil down to education.

    To be honest, I generally don't have that many problems with commercial vehicle operators, save for one or two bus companies, and a certain taxi fleet. Certainly trucks (the real ones, not the ute drivers with small penis syndrome) don't bother me a great deal. As I said in another thread, if driving was left only to the professionals, I don't think any of us would have the problems we do now. The problems arise when you get amateur morons, who haven't been required to look at the road rules for years (assuming they were ever required to know them, which is doubtful in itself), and who seem to think that bikes don't belong on public roads.

    Again, if the laws about leaving enough room to pass cyclists (which exist in most parts of the world) were actually enforced, many of these problems would disappear. They don't have to enjoy giving us enough space, they just have to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by khuon
    P.S. If none of this is making any sense, it's probably because I've written it at 0200 localtime.
    It made perfect sense to me. Perhaps all of your posts should be written at that time!
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  10. #35
    Nature Worshipper hillyman's Avatar
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    It is all because most everyone is in too much of a hurry. Drivers pass cyclist even if you are going as fast as they are because they are afraid a some point you are going to slow them down.
    Trouble is most cyclist have the same syndrome. If all you worry about is your average speed then you are in the same boat as they are. The ' Must do every thing fast' attitude eats up your brain and makes it where you can not enjoy the present moment.
    In every walk with Nature one receives far more than he seeks. John Muir

  11. #36
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    I think what we're overlooking here is that cyclists aren't the only ones who do stupid things and break the law. In fact, cyclists don't do it anymore often than motorists or pedestrians. However, for some reason, cyclist breaches tend to get a lot more "coverage" than breaches from everyone else. I think that reason is bigotry.
    On another thread you chose to argue with me aboutr bikes seeming to have the right to break the law. Now when good exqamaples are given to you you call it bigotry. Make up you mind
    Matthew 6

  12. #37
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    On another thread you chose to argue with me aboutr bikes seeming to have the right to break the law.
    No, what I said was that bicycles have no less right to break the law than anybody else. That only suggests cyclist can break the law if you argue that motorists, pedestrians, farnarklers and everyone else out there has the right to break the law. I leave that one for you to decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Now when good exqamaples are given to you you call it bigotry. Make up you mind
    Good examples of what? All I said is that breaches of the law by different groups should receive equal "coverage". If this doesn't happen, it's simply bigotry on the part of the small-minded majority.
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  13. #38
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    No, what I said was that bicycles have no less right to break the law than anybody else. That only suggests cyclist can break the law if you argue that motorists, pedestrians, farnarklers and everyone else out there has the right to break the law.


    No one has the "right" to break the law thats the point.

    Sometimes Chris I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L
    I think what we're overlooking here is that cyclists aren't the only ones who do stupid things and break the law. In fact, cyclists don't do it anymore often than motorists or pedestrians. However, for some reason, cyclist breaches tend to get a lot more "coverage" than breaches from everyone else. I think that reason is bigotry.
    Here in the tourist area, the tourists will just walk out in front of cars, while looking right at them.

  15. #40
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy


    No one has the "right" to break the law thats the point.
    So why then, if it isn't bigotry, do the breaches of one group get more coverage than the breaches of another?

    Quote Originally Posted by ngateguy
    Sometimes Chris I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing
    True. But there are worse things I could be doing.
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  16. #41
    Senior Member JasBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    It is all because most everyone is in too much of a hurry. Drivers pass cyclist even if you are going as fast as they are because they are afraid a some point you are going to slow them down.
    Trouble is most cyclist have the same syndrome. If all you worry about is your average speed then you are in the same boat as they are. The ' Must do every thing fast' attitude eats up your brain and makes it where you can not enjoy the present moment.

    Well part of cycling is the physical training and mental endurance that is built, so the attitude of "must keep this pace up" is much different from a cyclists mind than in a cagers.

  17. #42
    Nature Worshipper hillyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasBike
    Well part of cycling is the physical training and mental endurance that is built, so the attitude of "must keep this pace up" is much different from a cyclists mind than in a cagers.
    Theres no difference. To ride faster you start taking chances. You start taking chances you increase the risk of crashes. Worse, with your nose against the stem you miss the ride. So whats the point of riding a bike? You could get the same workout on an excercise bike.
    In every walk with Nature one receives far more than he seeks. John Muir

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    Theres no difference. To ride faster you start taking chances. You start taking chances you increase the risk of crashes. Worse, with your nose against the stem you miss the ride. So whats the point of riding a bike? You could get the same workout on an excercise bike.
    Oh, I dunno, maybe, getting somewhere? And IMHO, you take as much chance riding slow as riding fast. When you ride slow, the relative speed between you and other traffic is greater, giving other vehicles less time to react to your presence. Also, in a crash, a greater relative speed means greater impact. You simply mesh better with the rest of traffic the closer to car speed you can go.

  19. #44
    Senior Member JasBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    Theres no difference. To ride faster you start taking chances. You start taking chances you increase the risk of crashes. Worse, with your nose against the stem you miss the ride. So whats the point of riding a bike? You could get the same workout on an excercise bike.


    You could get the same workout but you wouldn't be out in the fresh air in real life.


    I guess this is just an agree-to-disagree argument. There are many reasons for riding a bike, and many styles of riding. Personally, I take time for training rides, and time for cruising. Each to thier own.

  20. #45
    Nature Worshipper hillyman's Avatar
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    I have nothing against anyone that rides fast. Enjoy! In fact I love watching The Tour. I just get a kick out of people in life with the go-fast mindset. In a hurry to go nowhere.
    In every walk with Nature one receives far more than he seeks. John Muir

  21. #46
    Nature Worshipper hillyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madpogue
    When you ride slow, the relative speed between you and other traffic is greater, giving other vehicles less time to react to your presence. Also, in a crash, a greater relative speed means greater impact. You simply mesh better with the rest of traffic the closer to car speed you can go.
    I don't get your meaning here. Are you telling me you have less chance getting hit from behind by riding 30mph as 15mph? I believe it is wrong place at the wrong time. Like the orginal post said,cars are going to try to get around you even if you are going the speed limit.
    The faster you ride the less time you have to react. I'd rather hit a van that pulled out in front of me at 15mph that 30mph.
    The faster you ride the more likely you could crash from potholes, gravel, tire blowouts cornering and many other encounters.
    In every walk with Nature one receives far more than he seeks. John Muir

  22. #47
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    I don't get your meaning here. Are you telling me you have less chance getting hit from behind by riding 30mph as 15mph?
    Yep. It gives the driver more time to see you, not to mention that it reduced the speed differential between bicycle and car if you go faster, probably reducing the severity of any impact. It also means you can get across the particularly narrow patches quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    Like the orginal post said,cars are going to try to get around you even if you are going the speed limit.
    In that case it makes no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    The faster you ride the less time you have to react. I'd rather hit a van that pulled out in front of me at 15mph that 30mph.
    Actually, the time you have to react from someone pulling out in front of you is determined more by your positioning on the road than your speed. If you're hugging the kerb you'll have no time to react regardless of your speed. In other situations, I actually find that drivers are less likely to pull out in front of me if I'm going flat out than if I'm going slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawdaddy
    The faster you ride the more likely you could crash from potholes, gravel, tire blowouts cornering and many other encounters.
    Never had a tyre blowout on a corner in over 120,000km of riding. As far as the other things go, it's a judgement call. One pothole is actually very easy to avoid at any speed. If there are a heap of them, then slowing down is the right thing to do. Patches of gravel can be seen from a long way in anycase, and I'm not convinced that slowly is the best way to deal with them.
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  23. #48
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
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    As a commuter it is much safer for you to ride as fast as you can try and be a close to the speed of traffic. They tend to pay more attention to you. I don't have much time to spend checking out the scenery in heavy traffic. There is way to much going on in urban traffic not to be paying attention to everything going on around you. I save that for my pleasure rides and that tends to be away from heavy traffic. If you are timid about traffic it will eat you alive (no exageration) stay on the trails then
    Matthew 6

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