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Old 06-15-04, 11:27 PM   #26
Chris L
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Originally Posted by sm266
I'll remove my helmet during long climbs. It's a risk I choose to take, after all, I'm an adult.
Actually, a properly ventilated helmet won't cause you to get any hotter on long climbs. I know, I did a 27km climb in temperatures of 47 degrees C a few years ago. When it's that hot, it won't make a difference what you're wearing.
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Old 06-15-04, 11:47 PM   #27
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I am happy you chose to wear a helmet if it makes you feel safe. I am trying to gather logical arguments from either side of the debate so that I can make a good decision myself. The burden of proof has to be on the side that encourages helmet use- they are arguing that people should go out and buy helmets and wear them and replace them after crashes. So far I have only seen fallacious arguments. (False Burden of Proof, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Common Practice, Anecdotal Evidence)

Helmets are a huge industry, think about it- potentially ~85,000,000 consumers, all the benefits of fashion changes, built in obsolescence (every crash) and an easy campaign of fear advertising. That industry has to convince me of a need that they can fill.

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Old 06-16-04, 12:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am happy you chose to wear a helmet if it makes you feel safe. I am trying to gather logical arguments from either side of the debate so that I can make a good decision myself. The burden of proof has to be on the side that encourages helmet use- they are arguing that people should go out and buy helmets and wear them and replace them after crashes. So far I have only seen fallacious arguments. (False Burden of Proof, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Common Practice, Anecdotal Evidence)

Helmets are a huge industry, think about it- potentially ~85,000,000 consumers, all the benefits of fashion changes, built in obsolescence (every crash) and an easy campaign of fear advertising. That industry has to convince me of a need that they can fill.
I guess it depends whether you regard that as the obligation of the industry, or other factors. Personally I'm not at all convinced by advertising rhetoric of any kind, in this case, my decision is made on the basis of experience. As I said in a previous post, I have two cracked helmets and a crack-free skull to demonstrate the benefits of wearing a helmet when cycling. I need no other proof beyond that. I'm not really concerned about whether it's a huge industry or not to be honest.

When you get right down to it, helmets aren't that expensive -- nor do they take a long time to put on. If I never need a helmet, yeah, maybe I've lost $50 and about two seconds before the start of each ride. Big deal. It's a small loss, and one that I'm prepared to cop. On the other hand, if I'm not wearing a helmet and suddenly get into a situation where I need one, well, the risks on that side are much greater.
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Old 06-16-04, 12:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am happy you chose to wear a helmet if it makes you feel safe. I am trying to gather logical arguments from either side of the debate so that I can make a good decision myself. The burden of proof has to be on the side that encourages helmet use- they are arguing that people should go out and buy helmets and wear them and replace them after crashes. So far I have only seen fallacious arguments. (False Burden of Proof, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Common Practice, Anecdotal Evidence)

Helmets are a huge industry, think about it- potentially ~85,000,000 consumers, all the benefits of fashion changes, built in obsolescence (every crash) and an easy campaign of fear advertising. That industry has to convince me of a need that they can fill.

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I agree with you. I just don't understand the need for some folks to start preaching about this issue to intelligent adults. One must reasonably evaluate the risk of any activity, and make a rational decision about the protection needed. I wear my helmet for about 95% of my riding, but that's because 95% is at higher speeds, and in what I perceive to be reasonably dangerous situations. I don't usually wear a helmet for short trips down the street to the store, or coffee shop. Am I taking a chance here? Absolutely, positively, a SMALL chance.

Consider this: I am at MORE risk riding fast through the rough woods on my mountain bike WITH a helmet, than I am riding at a slow speed on an empty street WITHOUT a helmet. I am also at MORE risk riding in heavy traffic WITH a helmet, than I am on empty streets WITHOUT a helmet. On the empty streets I have evaluated the risks, and made a reasonable decision not to wear a helmet.

For you full-time helmet wearers out there...do you wear a helmet while jogging? do you wear a helmet while in your car?...do you wear a helmet in the shopping mall? Do you see an unreasonable risk here?, I hope not , because if you're that uncoordinated, you shouldn't be riding a bike anyway.
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Old 06-16-04, 07:30 AM   #30
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So far I have only seen fallacious arguments. (False Burden of Proof, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Common Practice, Anecdotal Evidence)
That's the same argument for not wearing seatbelts use and for continuing to smoke--you have a premise (ie, "X is not bad"), an illogical criteria of proof ("prove to be that X is bad"; more logical and meaningful would be "prove to me that X is not good") and the subsequent, inevitable and tautological conclusion that "X is not bad"
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Old 06-16-04, 07:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
I agree with you. I just don't understand the need for some folks to start preaching about this issue to intelligent adults.
Then you've never had to take care of a mentally handicapped person...
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Old 06-16-04, 07:37 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by caloso
Well, since I can run a 40 min. 10K (approx. 9.3 mph), should I wear my helmet the next time I go for a run?
The difference is that on a bike you're clipped in--you suddenly become an unwilling part of a giant lever arm where all that aikido stuff we learned about how to fall becomes meaningless.
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Old 06-16-04, 07:39 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Chris L
Actually, a properly ventilated helmet won't cause you to get any hotter on long climbs. I know, I did a 27km climb in temperatures of 47 degrees C a few years ago. When it's that hot, it won't make a difference what you're wearing.
Chris, I live in a very humid environment, as well. Today, for example, it's 96 F (add another 10 degrees for the blacktop) with 92% humidity. Helmets are uncomfortable, to me, in this heat on long climbs.

Ultimately, here's the thing: I'm old enough to choose my spouse, fight in a war, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, pay taxes, and I'm old enough to pay my own medical bills. I realize the consequences of taking that helmet off on a climb, and I've accepted them.
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Old 06-16-04, 07:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lar Falli
That's exactly why I wear my cycling helmet while running wind sprints. I also wear my seatbelt when I'm sitting in the garage just listening to the radio. Ya never know when someone will ram into my bumper. As someone said earlier, it's all about how much risk you decide to take. If I could envelope my entire body, and that of my whole family, in 3 feet of styrofoam surrounded by bubble wrap I would. You can never be too safe. Heck, I moved because my job was across the RR tracks, and I didn't want to have to cross those twice a day!

oh god...I needed to read something like this today. Thanks for the laughs.
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Old 06-16-04, 08:17 AM   #35
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Its to hot for a helmet.
My head is to big.
Its my choice.
I dont need it.
Its the same with seatbelts.
I dont need to be told what to so.

Lets see,not smoking,wearing seatbelts and wearing helmets are smart. See how easy it is. Come on.
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Old 06-16-04, 08:46 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
For you full-time helmet wearers out there...do you wear a helmet while jogging? do you wear a helmet while in your car?...do you wear a helmet in the shopping mall? Do you see an unreasonable risk here?, I hope not , because if you're that uncoordinated, you shouldn't be riding a bike anyway.
Would a quick 10 minute trip require a helmet on city streets with light traffic? No?
OK. Now, add children playing ball on the sidewalk. No? Add speeds near 30mph on my mountain bike on flat ground. No? Add the fact that cars sometimes like to blow stop signs and inch into the intersection when you least expect it.
Yes, I do wear my helmet and gloves when going somewhere that's only 10 minutes away. Like you said, it's all about your acceptable level of risk.
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Old 06-16-04, 08:54 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am happy you chose to wear a helmet if it makes you feel safe. I am trying to gather logical arguments from either side of the debate so that I can make a good decision myself. The burden of proof has to be on the side that encourages helmet use- they are arguing that people should go out and buy helmets and wear them and replace them after crashes. So far I have only seen fallacious arguments. (False Burden of Proof, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Common Practice, Anecdotal Evidence)

Helmets are a huge industry, think about it- potentially ~85,000,000 consumers, all the benefits of fashion changes, built in obsolescence (every crash) and an easy campaign of fear advertising. That industry has to convince me of a need that they can fill.

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When I first bought a bike, I hadn't read any biking magazines or anything. Was never exposed to this so called "campaign of fear." In fact, I have almost never seen any ad saying if you don't wear a helmet, you will die. Like everyone says, you're a grown logical adult. You can make risk assements yourself and decide at what point you would want to wear a helmet.
No one should have to preach to you. I would recommend that you not wear a helmet until you feel it is necessary to have that level of protection.
Myself, I bought a helmet the same day I bought the bike.
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Old 06-16-04, 09:57 AM   #38
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I definitely agree! That why I also think that seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws are so stupid!!! I would never go without, but I don't think that you should be forced to wear one. The way I look at it, it's your own life and no one else's to rule.
It's everyone else's to pay for (insurance, police/rescue, etc.).
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Old 06-16-04, 09:57 AM   #39
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Or another way of looking at it, natural selection.
That's why they call 'em "donorcycles".
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Old 06-16-04, 10:55 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by shokhead
My head is to big.
I saw a guy in the LBS one time whos head was HUGE. He told me he has ridden for years but can't go on any organized rides because he could not get any helmet on his head. He was desperately looking for a helmet that would fit - none did. I saw him trying one on - it was hysterical - just sitting on the top of his head like a little bump. He was very frustrated. I really felt sorry for him.
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Old 06-16-04, 10:59 AM   #41
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Dont use a helmet.
Dont use sunscreen.
Dont use seatbelts.
Buy older cars without airbads.
Dont worry about being a carrot. You might be sooner then you think.
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Old 06-16-04, 11:30 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by shokhead
Dont use a helmet.
Dont use sunscreen.
Dont use seatbelts.
Buy older cars without airbads.
Or....make an intelligent assessment of your personal risks and decide how to live your life.

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Dont worry about being a carrot. You might be sooner then you think.
No...you WILL be a carrot eventually. And sorry, but you might not control how you go.
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Old 06-16-04, 11:34 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sm266
Chris, I live in a very humid environment, as well. Today, for example, it's 96 F (add another 10 degrees for the blacktop) with 92% humidity. Helmets are uncomfortable, to me, in this heat on long climbs.
I live on the east coast of Florida Were the heat added to the humidity is as high as yours and higher and I wear my helmet ALL the time while on a bike. Throw in the facts that I have hair down to the middle of my back weigh about 250 lbs and the fact that I'm originally from far northern Minnesota I would surmise that I'd be the one whining about "It's too hot" not you.
Myth: Helmets are too hot.
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Old 06-16-04, 11:42 AM   #44
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Helmet and seatbelt laws should be altered to only require helmets and seatbelts on those who lack medical insurance.
Then we can see how long it takes for HMOs to put small print in their contracts about bike, motorcycle, and car accident coverage.
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Old 06-16-04, 11:55 AM   #45
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Helmet and seatbelt laws should be altered to only require helmets and seatbelts on those who lack medical insurance.
Then we can see how long it takes for HMOs to put small print in their contracts about bike, motorcycle, and car accident coverage.
In Kentucky, you can go without a motorcycle helmet so long as you have a permit. To get the permit, you have to show proof of medical insurance.
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Old 06-16-04, 11:59 AM   #46
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Lets see, I've done three El Cap routes, a couple on Half Dome, hard alpine peaks and countless smaller rock routes without a helmet and never got injured. But on a bike I've been T-boned twice by other riders in a pack which sent me to the hospital both times so in pack rides I always wear one. But when I ride Glendora Mtn. road here in S. Cal, I always take it off during the climb. Why? It's a personal choice of safety from my own analysis of the risks each activity presents to me. This topic has been beaten to death on so many different forums.

As to why some riders put their helmets strapped to their handlebars, well there just aren't that many other places you can put it when you don't want to wear it. Also they make great headset protectors..lol
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Old 06-16-04, 09:28 PM   #47
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I am not looking to back pro or anti helmet laws but to collect both sides' arguments.

Just wondering at what level of impact do helmets crack? Do they crack at the same amount of applied force that would crack your skull? If not, how can we be sure how damage to a helmet equates to damage to the head? I have knocked my self out by hitting my head (not on a bike) and hit it harder and gotten a bump- neither is empirical evidence.

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Old 06-16-04, 09:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by sm266
Chris, I live in a very humid environment, as well. Today, for example, it's 96 F (add another 10 degrees for the blacktop) with 92% humidity. Helmets are uncomfortable, to me, in this heat on long climbs.
Geez, we have nights like that regularly overhere. I still make the point, whatever you do in those sort of conditions, it's going to be bloody hot regardless. However, I guess it depends how well ventilated your helmet is. In my case, it wouldn't make a whit of difference.
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Old 06-17-04, 07:17 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by RonH
Lately I have seen a lot of cyclists riding with their helmet hanging from the handlebar. These aren't weekend/fair weather riders. They are "real" cyclists, dressed in there best team gear and riding in traffic.
Are they crazy, tempting fate, or just stupid?
Well, If you'd spent $200 and more for bicycle handle bars don't you think that's where the helmut really belongs?
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Old 06-17-04, 07:27 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am not looking to back pro or anti helmet laws but to collect both sides' arguments.

Just wondering at what level of impact do helmets crack? Do they crack at the same amount of applied force that would crack your skull? If not, how can we be sure how damage to a helmet equates to damage to the head? I have knocked my self out by hitting my head (not on a bike) and hit it harder and gotten a bump- neither is empirical evidence.
Should'nt you be asking at what impact the head cracks?
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