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Old 06-17-04, 07:32 AM   #51
slvoid
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am not looking to back pro or anti helmet laws but to collect both sides' arguments.

Just wondering at what level of impact do helmets crack? Do they crack at the same amount of applied force that would crack your skull? If not, how can we be sure how damage to a helmet equates to damage to the head? I have knocked my self out by hitting my head (not on a bike) and hit it harder and gotten a bump- neither is empirical evidence.
I heard somewhere that if you were to fall at 0mph sideways off your bike and have the side of your head hit a curb, that's enough to crack your skull.
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Old 06-17-04, 08:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by caloso
Well, since I can run a 40 min. 10K (approx. 9.3 mph), should I wear my helmet the next time I go for a run?
i was thinking the same thing. I'm about where you are in the 10K (39:05 PR). I dont think it is a big deal to take a helmet off when riding slowly by yourself.
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Old 06-17-04, 09:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by shokhead
Should'nt you be asking at what impact the head cracks?
The speed of impact that the head cracks is only important if we arguing about wearing our heads. If helmets are supposed to stop head cracking and we are using examples of "i hit my head and my helmet cracked" then we should know the range of impact that cracks a helmet- preferably in terms of damage to the head.

That is, if a helmet cracks on a fall that would give me just a headache and it would also crack when I would receive a concussion then simply cracking a helmet means relatively nothing in this debate. On the other hand, if a helmet only cracks with the force required to do serious damage to my skull then it is a reasonable argument to say the helmet saved my head.
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Old 06-17-04, 10:07 AM   #54
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Do you think a helmet will crack on impact that without would only give you a headache? I'm thinking not. Look,you can still get hurt or die with any safety stuff BUT,its alot less likly.Like my dad told me when i told him i dont like wearing gloves,you'll wish you had them when you go down. I've worn them on every ride like my helmet sense then.
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Old 06-17-04, 11:39 AM   #55
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That's what I'm asking. I don't want my opinion- i want empirical proof. The starting point of the human being is without helmets. Helmets cost money, helmets decrease ridership when required. We must come up with serious arguments if we expect people to take us serious about helmet wear. Statistical evidence of helmet proformance in terms understandable to the general public would make a great argument.

We cannot start out with the assumtion that any safety equipment is good. This justifcation is pointless and exploitable. It is too easy to use the same logic to require full body DH protection for all riders- it would save lives.
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Old 06-17-04, 01:20 PM   #56
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I do always wear a helmet when I'm on a bike. For me it's because in my estimation, my risk of falling over, period, increases once I leave my feet and get onto a bike (unfortunately). The speed I'm going has little to do with it--I'm pretty good at falling over at low (or even no) speed.

This makes me think of my clinical neuropsych professor, who actually had a helmet for her daughter while she was little and still unsteady on her feet--yes, a helmet for her to wear while she was simply walking around. Her job involved assessing people with traumatic brain injury, and I guess she got a little paranoid about it.
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Old 06-17-04, 01:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor98
That's what I'm asking. I don't want my opinion- i want empirical proof. The starting point of the human being is without helmets. Helmets cost money, helmets decrease ridership when required. We must come up with serious arguments if we expect people to take us serious about helmet wear. Statistical evidence of helmet proformance in terms understandable to the general public would make a great argument.

We cannot start out with the assumtion that any safety equipment is good. This justifcation is pointless and exploitable. It is too easy to use the same logic to require full body DH protection for all riders- it would save lives.
Ah,ok.
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Old 06-17-04, 02:50 PM   #58
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just wear the helmet if ya want to and don't cry to me, if you crash without one and get paralyzed, when some nurse wont "evacuate" your bowls because of some silly rule.

What roughly are the odds of this happening? These arguments are making me think about giving up cycling- what a horrible sport where things like this are realistic fears (that was sarcasm). Please give numbers or rational arguments. This appeal to fear helps no one.

Sorry about the intial post.

Last edited by Trevor98; 06-17-04 at 03:17 PM. Reason: A little over the top
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Old 06-17-04, 02:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
just wear the helmet if ya want to and don't cry to me, if you crash without one and get paralyzed, when some nurse wont "evacuate" your bowls because of some silly rule.

What roughly are the odds of this happening? These arguments are making me think about giving up cycling- what a horrible sport where things like this are realistic fears (that was sarcasm).
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Old 06-17-04, 09:26 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor98
That is, if a helmet cracks on a fall that would give me just a headache and it would also crack when I would receive a concussion then simply cracking a helmet means relatively nothing in this debate. On the other hand, if a helmet only cracks with the force required to do serious damage to my skull then it is a reasonable argument to say the helmet saved my head.
I'm not sure what sort of statistics you're after here, perhaps you could clarify that for us. My point was that in a 35-40km/h, head-first crash in 2001, my head was spared being cracked under the protection of a helmet. I suppose it's possible that my head might have survived such a crash without the helmet, but personally, I'd rather not find out.
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Old 06-18-04, 08:05 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Chris L
I'm not sure what sort of statistics you're after here, perhaps you could clarify that for us. My point was that in a 35-40km/h, head-first crash in 2001, my head was spared being cracked under the protection of a helmet. I suppose it's possible that my head might have survived such a crash without the helmet, but personally, I'd rather not find out.
Chris at those speeds, a helmet, for me, is an absolute necessity.
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Old 06-18-04, 10:16 AM   #62
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So many hardheads that maybe some dont need helmets.
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Old 06-19-04, 08:26 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor98
I am not looking to back pro or anti helmet laws but to collect both sides' arguments.

Just wondering at what level of impact do helmets crack? Do they crack at the same amount of applied force that would crack your skull? If not, how can we be sure how damage to a helmet equates to damage to the head? I have knocked my self out by hitting my head (not on a bike) and hit it harder and gotten a bump- neither is empirical evidence.
It's not a matter of the helmet cracking - the thin outer shell on a bicycle helmet is for abrasion resistance only (studies have shown that there were fewer head/neck injuries in falls on asphalt when the helmet was less likely to catch - one good reason to avoid some of the squared-off styling gimmicks). As for the foam inside, you want that to compress - it's that compression that reduces the severity of the acceleration affects on your brain as it rattles around inside your skull

Edited to add - Many severe head traumas that result in permanent and drastic brain injury aren't accompanied by a cracked skull. The real damage comes from acceleration (which is the same as deceleration, for those who flunked physics) of the brain tissue and its impact against the inside of the skull. Likewise, the most severe damage often occurs in the hours or even days after the injury. The brain begins to swell, there is no room in the skull for it, and the result is mushed brains. In severe experimental cases they've even removed parts of a skull to make room for a swelling brain - the last I heard the jury was still out on whether that was medically sound (because most hospitals haven't the facilities for safely conducting that kind of operation).

It's a long dry read, but if you want analysis of real world studies instead of hype, guesswork, and sound bites you might wade through http://www.helmets.org/henderso.htm

Last edited by HalfHearted; 06-19-04 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 06-19-04, 09:31 PM   #64
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The matter of helmet cracking goes into using evidence of helmet cracking as "proof" of helmets saving lives. In order to use this "proof" we would have to accept that a cracked helmet equates to a cracked skull, or even damaged head.

There is a recent thread in Road Cycling that asks the question of when to replace a helmet due to a crack, the author states that he has not had an accident but dropping may have caused the crack.

So dropping a helmet will possibly crack a helmet therefore a cracked helmet means nothing more than that a force ranging from gravity to whatever the upper limit is has been applied to the helmet. To assume anything more based only on a cracked helmet is only an assumption.
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Old 06-19-04, 10:08 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor98
The matter of helmet cracking goes into using evidence of helmet cracking as "proof" of helmets saving lives. In order to use this "proof" we would have to accept that a cracked helmet equates to a cracked skull, or even damaged head.

There is a recent thread in Road Cycling that asks the question of when to replace a helmet due to a crack, the author states that he has not had an accident but dropping may have caused the crack.

So dropping a helmet will possibly crack a helmet therefore a cracked helmet means nothing more than that a force ranging from gravity to whatever the upper limit is has been applied to the helmet. To assume anything more based only on a cracked helmet is only an assumption.
Frankly, I have no intention of dropping my head on concrete to repeat the experiment.
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Old 06-19-04, 10:50 PM   #66
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I thought I was the only one that did that! I've gotten pretty overheated lately. I don't do it in areas with any traffic. I've had wrecks with both helmet and not helmet and it didn't really seem to make much difference. I rarely ride without one though.
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Old 06-20-04, 07:48 AM   #67
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I've been in a wreck without and with seatbelts and it didnt make a difference. If i get hit head on doing 70,well its a good bet a seatbelt will help and if if hit your head in the right place,well only if you had a helmet on but hell,that wont happen to be,just ask the carrots.
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Old 06-20-05, 07:42 PM   #68
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Like carrying your heavy jacket over your arm in the snow.
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Old 06-20-05, 08:53 PM   #69
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I don't see why we have to dig up a nauseating OLD argument about helmets when we have plenty of nauseating NEW arguments about helmets!

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!
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Old 06-21-05, 04:54 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by RonH
Lately I have seen a lot of cyclists riding with their helmet hanging from the handlebar.
Thats crazy, what if the helmet jammed in their brake lever and prevented them from stopping or worse yet, shifted them into too high a gear and strained their legs in the process.

Or, who cares? Seems like they made a decision not to wear it for that period of time, but wanted it available to wear at a different time - for legal, ride rules, or safety reasons. I'd conclude they have thought more about helmets than most who are stuck by their beliefs to wear them either all the time or never all at.

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Old 06-21-05, 06:33 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Trevor98


There is a greater risk of dying as a pedestrian that a cyclist by a factor of 7 (national safety council- percent of total population). That is, 1:359,967 people will die on a bike, 1:19,075 in a car, and 1:46,960 as a pedestrian.
Dude - that math is flawed - I'm a pedestrian everytime I stand up - I only ride my bike for maybe 2 hrs per week. Do the math.
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Old 06-21-05, 07:44 PM   #72
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Dude - that math is flawed - I'm a pedestrian everytime I stand up - I only ride my bike for maybe 2 hrs per week. Do the math.
You should ride more and you'd never die! Seriously, these numbers have been misinterpreted if I am reading the post correctly. The relevant numbers would be number of deaths per hour on bike, car or foot. Obviously, most people spend less time cycling than driving and walking. I have seen those numbers posted in other threads but I'm too lazy to look them up.

But really dude--you should spend more time riding your bike. Two hours a week is not close to enough!
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Old 06-21-05, 09:40 PM   #73
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I'll hook it over my handlebars if I'm stopped, but I wouldn't be riding around without my helmet.

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Old 06-22-05, 09:11 AM   #74
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no. bikes are more unstabe than legs.
Evidence?

I fall more per mile on foot than I do on wheels.
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Old 06-22-05, 11:15 AM   #75
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I usually remove my seatbelt when I reach my side street on the way home from work. After all, I just finished the "hard part" of driving.
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