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Old 06-12-09, 02:42 PM   #1
bobthib
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RFID on your bike, blessing or curse?

Copenhagen wants to be the bike capitol of the world by 2015. Lots of innovation and a very pro cycling culture. The are piloting a program with free RDIF chips for bikes in the city.

Check out the interesting article on the 6/12/09 issue of the blog at http://www.copenhagenize.com/

or What do you think?
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Old 06-12-09, 03:39 PM   #2
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I think it's an interesting idea, but having the chips embedded in an easily removed reflector seems a better way to invite mischief and baffling the police rather than preventing theft.

IMO, RFID technology needs to be adopted at the manufacturer level and integrated into the frame in a way that removing it might destroy the frame, or placed so discreetly as to be undetectable.
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Old 06-12-09, 03:42 PM   #3
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A curse, because they will give the RFID tech to the government, instead of the consumer, who can in turn choose to turn it over to LE should his/her bike get stolen.

I'd be happy to have a means to track a stolen bike, because I would NOT call the police. Around here they're not the slightest bit interested in recovering stolen property, and the courts have proven their uselessness beyond the slightest doubt.

And I assure you the first time I catch a bike thief would be the last time he ever commits such a crime, too.

Tom
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Old 06-12-09, 03:43 PM   #4
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RFID would be really nice to have if your bike were stolen but at the same time its very Orwellian. It seems like if the system were installed to its full capacity, with active chips and whatnot, it would be to easy for the government to track people, even if your bike isn't stolen. With that being said though, I think I'd support the idea. It seems like it'd be useful.
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Old 06-12-09, 03:53 PM   #5
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Old 06-12-09, 06:13 PM   #6
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I'd be happy to have a means to track a stolen bike, because I would NOT call the police. Around here they're not the slightest bit interested in recovering stolen property, and the courts have proven their uselessness beyond the slightest doubt.



Tom
But this is COPENHAGEN! Nothing is more serious than bike theft in Copenhagen! Plus, since there are about 3 murders a year in C., the police have plenty of time to apply their CSI skillz to solving bike crimes.
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Old 06-12-09, 07:59 PM   #7
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Aren't RFID short range only? meaning they'd only work in places where a scanner had been set up for them? Think security checkpoints.
So it terms of functionality, these would be no different than the serial number on the BB; useless because cops don't care to at it.
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Old 06-12-09, 08:31 PM   #8
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Well since they are putting an RFID tag on your bike they will later work in some way to charge you for it. They will need to collect money from you in some way or another to justify having the program, thats how government works. They can set up RFID readers all over the city so that for each road you ride down you are charged a small toll. They can also use it to track you movements and save it into a database to aid in criminal investigations. You wont mind since you have nothing to hide, right?
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Old 06-12-09, 09:10 PM   #9
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I like the idea. If any of us believe we are invisible to the police they aren’t trying on their computer and sending information over the internet. If you have a new smart phone it has a GPS locator in it. If you have On-star in a car you are being tracked. Many cities are putting in cameras in high crime areas to monitor the streets. And even my dog has a ID chip in case she gets lost. I know they may charge us sooner or later but how else are we going to improve our chances of getting our stolen bikes back? I have insurance if it get stolen from my home but there is still the deductable. Now instead of paying for a RFID I have to buy a special bike I don’t care about losing to run errands and pay for a big lock. I wonder what costs more.
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Old 06-12-09, 11:53 PM   #10
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Aren't RFID short range only? meaning they'd only work in places where a scanner had been set up for them? Think security checkpoints.
So it terms of functionality, these would be no different than the serial number on the BB; useless because cops don't care to at it.
I've worked with active RFID where a ping signal could be detected from about 1 mile away. This issue is battery life as the RFID will eventually run out of juice depending on size of the battery and the transmitter 'ping' interval. Our system worked for about 2 years with a ping interval of 45 seconds.

Overall I don't think this idea will work since the 'bad guys' would probably figure out a way to disable it. Also just sticking the bike is a concealed room, such as a concrete basement, would weaken the signal dramatically. It might be helpful to catch some kid doing a joy ride but are police really going to invest the time & money to chase an RFID signal strength?...no.
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Old 06-13-09, 12:59 PM   #11
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Agree, Whether by a registration or license fee or with an added tax either way it would be paid for.

Here in Grand Rapids, they're installing a lot of cameras along the street, and plate recognition software in many of the police cars. Most say it's "no big deal if you have nothing to hide" But frankly I value my privacy, and feel I should be able to take a cruise accross town without having my every move charted.
Currently the license plate on my explorer is only fastened with the bottom two bolts, and it was accidentally bent down the last time I unloaded materials. It can be read from standing height a few feet away, or from a vehicle directly behind, but pole mounted cameras can't read it. If an officer mentions it I'll straighten it up, but I do haul a lot of materials.

Think it was Franklin who said They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ken.
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Old 06-13-09, 01:58 PM   #12
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Still whatever drawbacks it might have some kind of locator would be nice. Even such simple one like the Brickhouse Child locator makes things easier for parents. And there are several equipment locators that are absolutely necessary for rental companies renting expensive equipment. But none of them would be necessary if society would have accepted some of my protection inventions.

One was the theft zapper.
1. First you had to get the power or electric company to wire your house for 440 volts. Indicating you had some shop tools that needed that kind of power works well.
2. Next you put down a six by six grid of steel wire mesh. This works best if you place the mesh down when planting a new lawn so the grass can grow up to camouflage the wire mesh.
3. Next you attach some heavy gage wire to a ground source somewhere off of the wire mesh. The ground source for your house often works quite well.
4. Once the wire mesh is camouflaged by the grass , or whatever method you can use to hide it you make sure the mesh is attached to a large electrical throw switch somewhere inside your front door.
5. Park you prized bicycle on the wire mesh area. It helps if you also make sure the area around the mesh is dampened.
6. Attach to two ground wires to the handle bar and saddle area of the bicycle.
7. Once inside the house flip the switch and the entire mesh area will be charged with 440 volts with only the bike tires keeping the circuit from completing.
8. When a thief tries to take your prized bicycle they will complete the circuit and turn the grid or mesh into a electrical grid much like a toaster.
9. Much like a bug zapper on your patio you will be notified that a thief was unsuccessful by the very Loud sound: “Zzzzzaaaaaapppppfffffttt”
10. You may have to use a dust pan to remove excess ash about once a week.


Then I discovered it was not a State approved safety device and against the law, darn the luck.
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Old 07-19-09, 01:31 PM   #13
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We are pursuing passive (no battery) RFID for bike ID purposes. Have attempted to contact the folks in Copenhagen, but till now they have been VERY tight lipped regarding their system details, capabilities, specs, etc. Should anyone have any additional ideas regarding passive or active RFID specifically geared toward bicycle usage please let me know!
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Old 07-19-09, 04:05 PM   #14
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I bought a 1988 Dodge Dakota a couple months ago. The truck cost me 1500$. I spent (as of today) over 400$ getting it registered. **** them.

I don't want this to happen to bicycles as well - registering the bike and dealing with those snooty, lazy, and ugly transport people is something I'd rather avoid.
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Old 07-19-09, 04:25 PM   #15
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We are pursuing passive (no battery) RFID for bike ID purposes. Have attempted to contact the folks in Copenhagen, but till now they have been VERY tight lipped regarding their system details, capabilities, specs, etc. Should anyone have any additional ideas regarding passive or active RFID specifically geared toward bicycle usage please let me know!
Passive wouldn't work since you need a magnetic field to energize the chip to send a signal. If a bike is lost in a city this would be impossible. Active is the way to go. You would set the transmitter interval to 120 seconds or so would make the battery last a long time- depending on the battery size. The trick is where do you put this on or in a bike? How do you make it serviceable (e.g. replace the battery)? There's solutions I've worked with that allow you to receive a beacon call from 1 mile away; however, you would need several receivers to triangulate the approx area the lost bike is at. If you can narrow that down you could determine where the bike is by signal strength. It would be a hunt or possible chase scenario that would take a lot of time.

I don't think this is doable. The biggest hurtle is where do you place it in or on the bike so that thefts just don't remove it?

OK too much info...

b
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Old 07-19-09, 06:29 PM   #16
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Seems like a too-complicated solution to a fairly simple problem. Locking a bike and/or keeping an eye on it isn't so complex that we need a national tracking system to cover people who don't bother to do it right. And I'm a big-government Democrat--I want the gov in charge of lots of stuff.
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Old 07-19-09, 07:13 PM   #17
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Placing the RF-chips in inventive locations could be fun.

Bottom of a river or harbor...On top of very tall buildings...Lion's cage at the Zoo...

I am utterly opposed to the dissemination of this technology. Today one in the bike. Tomorrow one in your head. Soften us up by selling you on "Get your bike back!" Then it's "Save the children!" Then it's "This is to protect you!" No thanks.
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Old 07-19-09, 07:33 PM   #18
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lol Space needle would be a nice location.

BTW, this really isn't any different than lojack. Millions of cars have this and it works. If this caught on lojack could crush the competition in a minute.

I'm with ya that RFID'ing people (e.g. passports, etc) is getting out of hand. Being able to determine where you are at any given place could be used against you by the bad guys. It does have it's good uses though. The project I was involved in was with the military. It has made bases safer.
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Old 07-19-09, 07:39 PM   #19
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Seems like a too-complicated solution to a fairly simple problem. Locking a bike and/or keeping an eye on it isn't so complex that we need a national tracking system to cover people who don't bother to do it right. And I'm a big-government Democrat--I want the gov in charge of lots of stuff.
I do not want the Government in charge of any thing that I own let alone any of my bikes.
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Old 07-19-09, 08:24 PM   #20
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I do not want the Government in charge of any thing that I own let alone any of my bikes.
What if it's stolen? Would you like to get it back?

Police impound yards are so full of unclaimed and unidentified bikes that they hold auctions to make room for more.



A manufacturer-embedded RFID deep inside the frame would be tough if not impossible to remove without destroying the frame, unlike serial numbers or registration stickers, and would allow LEO's to return far more of them to their rightful owners. It's about the only feasible application I can see as a passive yet permanent tag won't do a thing for theft prevention.
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Old 07-19-09, 08:45 PM   #21
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Hey you got point here. Much like how they chip dogs. This would work only if the bike was recovered and the police scanned them, looked up the owner, etc. Problem is if the bike(s) are re-sold and never turned in.

There is some company that has already tried this but I cannot recall their name right now.
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Old 07-19-09, 09:59 PM   #22
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Old 07-19-09, 10:57 PM   #23
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"Attention! We have your bicycle. Probably. Bend over so we may implant the RF -ID chip in your skull. If it makes the same frequency - your bicycle will be returned. Otherwise you are under ARREST!"

The Chinese have a device that will identify if you are on drugs. All you have to do is look into it. Soon to be installed in cars and homes.....Actually they do - and US Federal law enforcement is testing this.
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Old 07-20-09, 12:05 AM   #24
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Great, now I have to stick my bicycle in the microwave, too?
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Old 07-20-09, 12:33 AM   #25
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"Attention! We have your bicycle. Probably. Bend over so we may implant the RF -ID chip in your skull. If it makes the same frequency - your bicycle will be returned. Otherwise you are under ARREST!"

The Chinese have a device that will identify if you are on drugs. All you have to do is look into it. Soon to be installed in cars and homes.....Actually they do - and US Federal law enforcement is testing this.
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Great, now I have to stick my bicycle in the microwave, too?
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