Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-07-09, 09:47 PM   #1
jmtenthusiast
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bike arrived damaged. Can you comment?

Hi All,

First time poster. Please look at this and tell me what you think. I have never had to pack a bike so I'm not an expert on how they should have done it. I certainly don't think this was right. I paid $75 for packing and shipping.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...TubeGouged.jpg


http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/a...aged%20Lemond/



Thanks,

T.
jmtenthusiast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 09:55 PM   #2
Velo Dog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern Nevada
Bikes:
Posts: 3,802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
From what I can see (I didn't examine every shot), it looks like superficial, cosmetic damage, nothing that will affect performance. I don't blame you for being pissed, but I don't know if I'd bother to make much of an issue of it.
Is the bike new or used? If it's used, i think you get what you get--the seller should have disclosed, but he didn't, and you have no proof you didn't damage the bike in your first ride, or that the shipping company didn't ding it (they'll claim they got it that way from the shipper, who'll claim it was perfect when he taped up the box).
If it's new from a dealer, you may have better luck. But most of my bikes have equivalent damage after a few months of use. As Grant Petersen of Rivendell said years ago, "It's a piece of outdoor equpment. It's going to get scratched."
Velo Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 09:55 PM   #3
maddyfish
Senior Member
 
maddyfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ky. and FL.
Bikes: KHS steel SS
Posts: 3,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, it could have been packed better obviously, but isn't this one of the main reasons NOT to buy a bike over the internet?

I think this is what can happen when you buy a bike over the net and get it shipped. Buy local.
maddyfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 10:02 PM   #4
Dannihilator
User Title
 
Dannihilator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annandale, New Jersey
Bikes: 2014 Surly Steamroller, 1989 Nishiki Altron
Posts: 19,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Was this sent via UPS?

Sometimes the saying what can brown do for you can be changed to what can brown do to you.

Just kidding.

Looks like it was not packed correctly.
__________________
Signature.
Dannihilator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 10:06 PM   #5
jmtenthusiast
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, UPS
jmtenthusiast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 10:12 PM   #6
Dannihilator
User Title
 
Dannihilator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annandale, New Jersey
Bikes: 2014 Surly Steamroller, 1989 Nishiki Altron
Posts: 19,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Wasn't packed well from the looks of it.
__________________
Signature.
Dannihilator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-09, 11:45 PM   #7
Folder4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NEW YORK
Bikes: Brompton Custom Built
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would explode if I got a bike damaged no matter how much I paid. It is obviously not your fault and you should not have to accept it. I would definitely try to get a refund or an exchange. If you paid with your credit card, then you should be protected. I would call them first! ASAP.
Folder4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 12:41 AM   #8
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've seen many bikes shipped with less packing come out fine.

Your claim is with the carrier, not the packer.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 03:27 AM   #9
cs1
Senior Member
 
cs1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clev Oh
Bikes: Specialized, Schwinn
Posts: 6,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
Well, it could have been packed better obviously, but isn't this one of the main reasons NOT to buy a bike over the internet?

I think this is what can happen when you buy a bike over the net and get it shipped. Buy local.
That's kind of a crazy thing to say. I collect vintage Stumpjumpers. The supply of old Stumpy's in NE Ohio is virtually none. I have to buy online and so do most collectors. We depend on sellers packing our purchases correctly. Purchasing local isn't an option.
cs1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 03:51 AM   #10
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Bikes:
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The only thing I'd trust UPS with would be a large box - marked FRAGILE! - full of high-explosives. They have ruined so many shipments that I won't do business with firms that don't offer another choice of shippers.
Panthers007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 05:34 AM   #11
CCrew
Older than dirt
 
CCrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winchester, VA
Bikes: Too darn many.. latest count is 11
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post
Your claim is with the carrier, not the packer.
And UPS will bail saying it was improperly packed, which it was. Just because you've seen one escape with less packing doesn't mean it was correct.
CCrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 06:37 AM   #12
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Rans Rockst (Retro rocket) Rans Enduro Sport (Retro racket) Catrike 559, Merin Bear Valley (beater bike).
Posts: 26,631
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post
I've seen many bikes shipped with less packing come out fine.

Your claim is with the carrier, not the packer.
I couldn't disagree more strongly! Packing is everything.

During the time that I owned my own bike shop I had over 1,000 bikes shipped to me via UPS. Know how many damage claims I had? Zero, Zip, Nada, Not-a-One. There is a reason for every little bit and piece of packing the factories use when they pack new bikes. Leave off any of it and take your chances.
Retro Grouch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 06:44 AM   #13
Little Darwin
The Improbable Bulk
 
Little Darwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 8,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I suspect it was packaged as well as a new bike is packaged, assuming it had protection against the dropouts gerring crushed...

I suspect that people that ship bikes do a lot more "extras" in packaging than the manufacturers. I received a bike used that took me an hour to get all of the wrap and stuff off of it. A bike shop wouldn't tolerate having to do that much work to simply unpackage a new bike.
Little Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 06:50 AM   #14
jmtenthusiast
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have had a chance to sleep on it and I don't feel any better. It is a used bike, 1996, a Trek 5200 OCLV Full Carbon. It makes me mad that such a nice bike that had been taken care of for all those years is now looking a lot worse then it should. I imagine I will try to rub out all of the marks that I can and maybe strip off the decal. Anyone have a suggestion for filling the scratches?
jmtenthusiast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 06:56 AM   #15
jmtenthusiast
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Little Darwin,

That's the way it is supposed to be. If you buy a bike from a private party they should go above and beyond to make sure you get what you paid for by protecting your investment. Packaging is just a little bit of their time, not a lot in materials.

JMT
jmtenthusiast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 07:46 AM   #16
Little Darwin
The Improbable Bulk
 
Little Darwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 8,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmtenthusiast View Post
Little Darwin,

That's the way it is supposed to be. If you buy a bike from a private party they should go above and beyond to make sure you get what you paid for by protecting your investment. Packaging is just a little bit of their time, not a lot in materials.

JMT
Why should an individual be held to a higher level of accountability than a multi-million dollar corporation? Why is a used bike more precious than a new bike? If it is a museum piece, then the expectations are indeed higher. Did the bike cost more than a comparable new bike? If not, why does it demand a higher level of packaging?

If the packaging was as good as a new bike would be, then that doesn't mean that you should eat the loss, it means it is a problem with the shipping company... While UPS is going to make a claim of inadequate packaging, that is almost a form letter. The bottom line is if the bike/frame was packaged as well as a new bike manufacturer packs them, the seller has met the industry standard expectation of proper packaging.

I would go after the deep pockets instead of someone who did an adequate job. I don't think the seller is to blame just because he didn't package the bike to survive a blitzkrieg. I see going after the seller as taking the easy way out. Of course, I do seem to recall that it is the seller's responsibility to file a claim, so you probably need to work through the seller, but let him decide whether it is his fault or UPS....

If the bike wasn't packaged as well as a new bike, then that is a different story in my mind.

I do hope you get compensation for the bike, as that is what is fair... I just don't think the seller is automatically at fault for not using excessive protection measures. And even though they are a pain to unpack, I do appreciate the extra packaging when it is used, I just don't set that as the expectation.
Little Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 07:57 AM   #17
Little Darwin
The Improbable Bulk
 
Little Darwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 8,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmtenthusiast View Post
I imagine I will try to rub out all of the marks that I can and maybe strip off the decal. Anyone have a suggestion for filling the scratches?
If the damage is any more than just the surface, and the worst one lookks potentially worse, I have heard it is a good thing to have CF frames checked by professionals.

Also, if the decals are under clear coat, you won't be able to remove them without leaving an ugly outline in the clear coat where the decal used to be... and even that would be a pain to do. You should be able to tell if the decal is under clear coat by looking at where the decals are screwed up. And my guess is that they are under clear coat.
Little Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 09:33 AM   #18
DX Rider
Senior Member
 
DX Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Disclaimer: I worked loading trucks for UPS for 3-1/2 years when I was in college. I'm not defending UPS, I've seen them mangle perfectly packaged parcels. I know they're not the gentlest of shipping companies. I'm just sharing what I know about the claims process.


Your only recourse is to go after the shipper not UPS. UPS's claim policy states that the outer packaging on all parcels must have a certain burst stregnth in order to be eligible for a claim. Most boxes don't meet that criteria.

Also as you stated about this photo....

http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/a...eInsideBox.jpg

The internally packaged wheel moved around. UPS didn't cause that internally packageed wheel to be improperly packed. The wheel poked through from not having been properly wrapped on the ends.

You may have had an argument with UPS if the box had been punctured from the outside, and it caused the damage, but this box was punctured from the inside.

Last edited by DX Rider; 07-08-09 at 03:00 PM.
DX Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 12:41 PM   #19
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Rans Rockst (Retro rocket) Rans Enduro Sport (Retro racket) Catrike 559, Merin Bear Valley (beater bike).
Posts: 26,631
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Darwin View Post
I suspect it was packaged as well as a new bike is packaged, assuming it had protection against the dropouts gerring crushed...

I suspect that people that ship bikes do a lot more "extras" in packaging than the manufacturers.
So now we have two things that we disagree about.

It's actually pretty hard to pack a bike as well as the factories do. The first trick is just finding a bike box that's the right size. Most aftermarket packers use a bridge between the fork blades, but hardly anybody uses the little plastic mushrooms over the axle ends. Even the gear that the bike's in when it gets packed in the box is significant. The big cog on the back tucks the derailleur farther in away from danger.
Retro Grouch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 04:47 PM   #20
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
I couldn't disagree more strongly! Packing is everything.

During the time that I owned my own bike shop I had over 1,000 bikes shipped to me via UPS. Know how many damage claims I had? Zero, Zip, Nada, Not-a-One. There is a reason for every little bit and piece of packing the factories use when they pack new bikes. Leave off any of it and take your chances.
I'd love to see the packing that can take a forklift being driven over the box.

Yes, it happened. The tire marks were very distinct.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 05:20 PM   #21
Caspar_s
Senior Member
 
Caspar_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Burlington, ON
Bikes: Giant Tcx1
Posts: 530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Darwin View Post
Why should an individual be held to a higher level of accountability than a multi-million dollar corporation? Why is a used bike more precious than a new bike?
Because a corporation will just write it off and send another one. An individual can't do that because he doesn't HAVE another one. We write off stuff that is damaged in shipping all the time - depending on the place supplying it, we either return it or trash it.

The suppliers can't protect them enough for every eventuality, so accept that sometimes they'll get damaged when some loader puts something heavier on top of it and crushes it.
Caspar_s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-09, 06:28 PM   #22
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Rans Rockst (Retro rocket) Rans Enduro Sport (Retro racket) Catrike 559, Merin Bear Valley (beater bike).
Posts: 26,631
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post
I'd love to see the packing that can take a forklift being driven over the box.

Yes, it happened. The tire marks were very distinct.
Fairy tales start "Once upon a time"
War stories start "Now this is no @#$%!"

The OP's box wasn't driven over by a fork lift.
Retro Grouch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-09, 06:32 PM   #23
norwood
GO BIG RED
 
norwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hastings,NE
Bikes: 1996 Bianchi Veloce 1993 Bridgestone MB-3 1992 Trek 700 1992 Trek 820
Posts: 678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I may as well weigh in. Honestly, what I see in the photos looks like damage from a rider who didn't care for his bike a whole lot. That is, it looks like damage done prior to the sale and shipment. There's touch-up paint on the tube damage. (Unless OP put it on already). I just think the seller didn't disclose the extent of the chips and scratches to the buyer. Not uncommon. Granted, certainly NOT the best packing job I've seen. The box definitely did sustain some damage. Some of the marks may be due to poor packing. I think the OP was seriously misled.

Last edited by norwood; 07-09-09 at 09:26 PM. Reason: spelling
norwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-09, 08:50 AM   #24
demoncyclist 
Senior Member
 
demoncyclist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Medway, MA
Bikes: 2011 Lynskey Sportive, 1988 Cannondale SM400
Posts: 2,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
That is NOT a Trek 5200, and it is certainly NOT carbon fiber.
__________________
DEMON

Satanic Mechanic
STAR 3 Spinning Instructor

2011 Lynskey Sportive (Shimano Ultegra 10s)
1988 Cannondale SM400 (Suntour XC-M 7s)
demoncyclist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-09, 10:23 AM   #25
DX Rider
Senior Member
 
DX Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I too question the condition of the bike before it was shipped. It doesn't look like all of those scratches are in a place that the wheel could reach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post
I'd love to see the packing that can take a forklift being driven over the box.

Yes, it happened. The tire marks were very distinct.




Even the small electric pallet jacks weigh several hundred pounds, if not more than half a ton. If a fork lift ran over that box, that frame would be severely bent or if carbon fiber, broken into many pieces. And all four sides of the box- the small flaps- would be visibly creased from where they collapsed from the weight. You've never seen the damage a fork lift would cause to a cardboard box if you think that's what happened.

Even if someone at UPS DID accidently run over this box, it would have been brought into the claims center to be processed for compensation. I've seen package trucks accidently back over boxes. I've run stuff over. As long as you fess up and it's not a recurring issue, it's not a big deal with management, since it can happen given that their employees are human and fallible. It's a bigger deal if you hide the fact that you knowingly damaged a package. Plus UPS doesn't pay the claim, they're insurer does.

I've seen boxes collapsed like this before. The box was crushed from having been stacked in a trailer with other boxes on top of it. The weight of the other boxes compressed the center of this box down and forced the back wheel to pentetrate the box. If the backwheel had been properly wrapped, that wouldn't have happened. That's the reason UPS requires a minimum crush stregnth in order for packages.

The discoloration is either from the rubber on the belts or one of the metal slides that are located throughtout the conveyor belt system. The belts are often lubricated with silicon spray to lower the friction between the boxes on the belt and the belt itself. That spray will leave a dirt stain like you see on this box, sort of looks like a newsprint stain.

UPS doesn't use forklifts for very much in regards to small parcel shipping. Since the trailers that the small parcells are loaded on don't have any pallets in them. They are stacked floor to ceiling with loose packages. The trucks are loaded by hand and will be unloaded by hand. The average package handler will handle over 1200 pieces in one four hour shift and that's just the average, I knew people that loaded up to 2000 pieces in four hours. It's physically demanding work, but it'll keep you fit.

99% of the small parcels are moved by hand and an extensive system of conveyor belts. The stuff that isn't are the packages that are pre-skidded and overweight packages. They are moved by electric carts similiar to what the ground support people at an airport use to move luggage from a plane to a terminal. Those carts are so low to the ground they can't run a box over. They'd just push it along. You don't see full skids come through UPS. They're not known as a bulk carrier.

Also, the blue collar UPS employees are Teamsters, the union would require one specific person to be designated as the fork lift driver with no other repsonsibilities. I've seen drivers file a grievance because package handlers were moving trucks and they're not paid to move trucks. The drivers won the grievance. And UPS would never agree to pay someone to just sit around on a fork lift for four hours.

Last edited by DX Rider; 07-10-09 at 10:32 AM.
DX Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:14 PM.