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Old 10-18-09, 05:17 PM   #1
Warmonger
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How do you detect a bike's make is the real thing?

Recently I have been eyeing to get me an Italian speed bike from the 80's. Purely aesthetics.
Of course their prices are way up there. I have looked in the local Craig's List and to lesser extent E-Bay because I want to be able to ride it first and look at it up close before spending my Franklins on something that comes accross the other side of the world with glossy high definition pictures.

Recently, I came accross a post in e-bay selling DeRosa decals. A whole bunch of them. Authentic DeRosa stickers and as you know DeRosa is quite a pricey name.
It had never occurred to me that someone could conceivably buy stickers for any brand and place them on a freshly painted cheap frame and all of a sudden he or she is on Craigs List advertising a DeRosa for a grand (what a great deal huh?) being that I am not an expert I would not know if that DeRosa is a real one.
I was looking at such a sweet deal with a Casati recently and I let it go solely because I could not tell, beautiful as it was, if indeed this was not a rusty frame from the 80;s with a bright red paint job and new stickers.

Your thoughts?
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Old 10-18-09, 06:48 PM   #2
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I've had few problems on e-bay; I've gone by faith, questions, intuition....
I can see your concern. Italian bikes, any high priced bikes, moreso frames can be faked, I've seen the stickers too and I've read plenty here and other places.

I'm knowlegeable enough and tricky. Still though, just recently, I've been more wary than ever. CL may be the way. It depends on availabilty, your area. I've not many prospects for used bikes near me.

Casatis are less apt to be faked, mainly because they don't command the price and due to the fact that there're many out there. Past few years an importer or two has let 'em fly. It's an exception for sure. Pricier brands can make lesser models, stickers stating higher level tubesets can be used to raise the price hundreds.

Look in local listings for a place selling used, a store that specializes in that. Again, it depends.
I'm looking at a Bianchi now; no intention of buying it, never did. The seller admits that it's bent. It's heading towards $300. Hit it now, it's ending soon. Road Bikes catagory, srranged in ending soonest. That's my thought for now. Catch you later.
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Old 10-18-09, 09:27 PM   #3
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Yes, someone could re-decal a generic frame with fancy labels and try to pass it off. But for something like a De Rosa, there are enough other distinguishing details that would raise suspicions in people who know these bikes. If you have any doubt about authenticity, seek expert help before bidding high.
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Old 10-18-09, 09:46 PM   #4
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Also, lots of steel frames have the brand molded into the frame - often at the upper end of the seat stays
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Old 10-18-09, 09:46 PM   #5
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Yes, someone could re-decal a generic frame with fancy labels and try to pass it off. But for something like a De Rosa, there are enough other distinguishing details that would raise suspicions in people who know these bikes. If you have any doubt about authenticity, seek expert help before bidding high.
YES.. he run-it-by you for example or other astute members, pics are a matter of course.
Not just labels but shots of the fork, b.b shell... all of it. Photoshop not needed.
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Old 10-19-09, 10:37 AM   #6
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I only mentioned the DeRosa because I found the stickers for sale on e-bay. Obviously it is very difficult to fake a Ferrari.
Again, the idea came to me of possible fakes once I saw the stickers but in my particular case, the Casati was advertised in the local Craigs List for $1,100.00 firm.
The pictures were detailed and numerous. It look like the real thing but admitedly, I am not an expert and I have not seen a Casati in years. This was a mid-80's casati in bright fire truck red. It looked so new that it hurt your eyes. It had new components which brought up the price and made it look even better looking.
A touch of modern for todays world certainly would not affect the perception for this non-purist.

Yet it brought to my attention of 'maybe it's a new paint job' which in the case of an old Alfa Romeo is not a bad idea. Except that you know it is an Alfa-Romeo new paint or not. In the case of the Casati, which I was willing to fork out ten Franklins, I really did not know it a K-mart frame was under it, now with shimano components and a spiffy leather seat and chrome stays.
If it was a new paint job, it meant that the seller had to get the stickers to make it look back to original.

That's what stopped me from buying it. Casatis are not DeRosas but to me, ten Franklins was more than my ego allows me for an Italian show-boating purchase. The bike was resplandeciently gorgeous.
I probably will regret not buying it as it was going to be my sunday look-at-me bike but I would have regretted it even more if I had been duped out of one thousand bucks for a Sear's 80's frame with shimano components.
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Old 10-19-09, 11:16 AM   #7
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Here are the pictures. It sure looks like the real thing. Is it worth a grand?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cas1.jpg (90.9 KB, 92 views)
File Type: jpg cas2.jpg (63.5 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg cas4.jpg (90.9 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg cas7.jpg (73.1 KB, 59 views)
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Old 10-19-09, 11:19 AM   #8
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Perhaps the resident experts can ascertain if this is indeed a legit Casati with new components and perhaps they can estimate a price!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cass9b.jpg (63.0 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg cass9c.jpg (56.6 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg cass9e.jpg (72.5 KB, 27 views)
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Old 10-19-09, 11:24 AM   #9
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and of course the Made In Italy sticker could not be missing.
Hey, don't they speak Italian in Italy?
Shouldn't this be Manufactura Italiana?
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File Type: jpg cass9.jpg (41.3 KB, 42 views)
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Old 10-19-09, 11:53 AM   #10
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To my way of thinking, if you can't tell a high-end frame from a Kmart frame, that's a good reason not to buy a high-end frame. Sort of a twist on the "If you don't know what it is, you don't need it" theory. (I wouldn't know the difference either, btw).

If you've got local friends into vintage bikes, ask one or more of them to look at it with you in person, maybe?
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Old 10-19-09, 12:21 PM   #11
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Get the frame serial number and post in classic and veterans. Somewhere there will know.
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Old 10-19-09, 12:37 PM   #12
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To my way of thinking, if you can't tell a high-end frame from a Kmart frame, that's a good reason not to buy a high-end frame. Sort of a twist on the "If you don't know what it is, you don't need it" theory. (I wouldn't know the difference either, btw).

If you've got local friends into vintage bikes, ask one or more of them to look at it with you in person, maybe?
I do not know of vintage bikes, I just got into riding bikes recently after not riding one in 20 years.
I bought a SOMA ES Smoothie and I cannot get off the damn thing. Obviously I don't know anything about Italian bikes (eventhough the 80's are not really vintage to me) but I sure am in love with them upon first sight. This particular Casati, seems overpriced to me eventhough is gorgeous. Not to mention that I don't really know if it is an authentic 1985 made in Italy frame. Hence my post.

I do not have any friends that know about Italian bikes either. My friends seem to enjoy those new aberrations that ride on all terrain (personally, I choose a horse if I want to go the off road path) and laugh at the sight of my intented purchase. They are Hummer minded when it comes to bikes.

Then again, they laugh at my Italian made Beretta pistol and my Benelli shot-gun so what do they know.

I figure I could get some insight here, if at least the approximated price of this particular red so-called Italiana beauty.
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Old 10-19-09, 01:19 PM   #13
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Get the frame serial number and post in classic and veterans.
Thats just flat out cold.....
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Old 10-19-09, 02:49 PM   #14
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Most high end Italian frames from the 80s are going to use Campagnolo semi horizontal dropouts I believe. If not then that would be at least a warning sign to look closer.

Many, such as my early 80's Colnago, also have distinctively marked parts such as the Colnago engraved name on my seat stays and the "club" card symbol engraving on the fork and bottom bracket cutout.
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Old 10-20-09, 12:17 PM   #15
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Thats just flat out cold.....
Might aswell ask the "Experts" instead of those of us that don't know a fake from the real thing.

Today I saw a "Maserati" bike. Now Maserati don't make bikes but there is a possibility that it was Promo bike given away if you bought a car. So I asked the Expert- the owner who is into Veteran bikes. It was a promo bike and not made by Maserati. It is a rebadged "Roberts". Trouble was that the Roberts that it was modelled on- was 2lbs lighter- had a better groupset and was a classic riding bike. This one is just a classic because it is one of the "Original" Maserati bikes.
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Old 10-20-09, 12:28 PM   #16
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This subject was posted again... the issue's been resolved to the point of a specific bike as well as a contact, the company who sold the individual bike of interest. The actual Casati shown which is not fake.
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Old 10-20-09, 03:28 PM   #17
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This subject was posted again... the issue's been resolved to the point of a specific bike as well as a contact, the company who sold the individual bike of interest. The actual Casati shown which is not fake.
I am sorry but I think this is half a post.
Did you contact Casati? Is this bike a real Casati?
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Old 10-21-09, 07:03 AM   #18
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Stapfam

the correct name for the forum is "Cranky & Vintage" thank you very much.

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Old 12-06-13, 10:47 PM   #19
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All the lugs and the top casting on the forks and the concave tubes at the seatpost junction also look correct. It should be worth at least $1100 very nice looking Mine is blue and has a 53 cm frame set with Mavic rims and tubulars and bike weight is 19lbs. Casati's really handle well

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Old 12-07-13, 07:57 AM   #20
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Sorry Charlie, late to this party.....
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Old 12-07-13, 10:18 AM   #21
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Bought from dealer , new, we both got, C&V, Old
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Old 12-07-13, 11:39 PM   #22
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Well, if he's waited 4 years to buy this bike, it's probably not for sale anymore. Zombie thread.
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Old 12-10-13, 08:49 AM   #23
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first

you need to become more aware of the features found on a decent quality bike
as opposed to dept store and other crappy bikes

second
the paint and decals on that bike are too pristine and professional looknig

it is unlikely that someone would go to the trouble of having a frame professionally painted
which could cost hundreds of dollars
and expertly decalled
which would cost more money and take time
just to add a couple hundred to the price of a bike

it would be eaiser
and probably more cost effective
to remove the old decals
and sell it as a
believed to be a casati
and hope for someone not knowledgeable
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