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Old 10-21-10, 03:15 AM   #1
BulkyRider
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De Rosa and Chinese OEM carbon frames

How much do you think "painting and brand" worth?

OEM Company (Not sure about the price)
http://www.xpa-cycling.com/products_...=33.html&key=2

De Rosa R848
http://www.derosanews.com/derosa/mod...howbike&bid=44

Price: $3,999 (in US, I guess)
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Old 10-21-10, 09:09 AM   #2
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I see what you're saying, but anything said would be a guess. Without figures of the cost of each frameset, this is moot. A guess for me is several hundred dollars difference between the frameset. They certainly look like the same frame.
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Old 10-21-10, 11:56 AM   #3
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There are so many Frame manufacturers in the far East and most of them manufacture frames for someone else. They will be made for the original "Named" manufacturer to theit design and Materials. The relationship will be good with quality control at a high degree.

Unfortunately- There are a few unscrupulous Frame manufacturers about that will either make a copy of the original- or will sell the "Rejects" from quality control on.

Not knowing whether this is a well made frame- or whether it has just been made as a copy at poor quality- I would not like to buy unless I could see one.
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Old 10-21-10, 12:19 PM   #4
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THe price difference between the no-name frame and the de rosa is likely to be significant... if the Chinese company is the manufacturer of the frame then their wholesale cost to sell to De Rosa is going to be a small fraction of the De Rosa bike cost. I would guess 10% or less. But that is the way business works. If you buy a new electronic component for your Chevrolet it is considerably more expensive than buying a bunch of diodes and resitors and connectors.

You are not paying for just paint and a name - you are paying to weed out the junky or irregular ones, a domestic warranty service, assembly, etc. I'm not saying it is or isn't necessarily worth the money, just that the difference between the unit cost on a Chinese frame and the price of a very similar brand-name frame is not the only factor.
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Old 10-21-10, 03:01 PM   #5
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Most of the Chinese frame sets if have looked into are anywhere from $320 TO $550. And as above set you have to look at quality, there is some guys on BF that have bought some of the Chinese frames and are happy so far.
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Old 10-21-10, 03:55 PM   #6
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In a former job we dealt with overseas OEM's and they would often copy things without telling us. Our products bore the full R&D, marketing, sales and support/warranty cost. Theirs didn't. And, as was said before, we would reject a high percent that did not meet US customers' standards. They didn't. It truly is the wild west out in the far east right now. You may or may not get a quality product but without someone to back you up, you are totally on your own. Plus, you'd be supporting piracy.

This company is headquartered in Taiwan, btw. The Taiwanese DO have good engineers and often just send production to the PRC. So, who knows... Sounds like a rogue supplier out to make a little money on the side.
http://www.xpa-cycling.com/contact.php?url=office.php
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Old 10-21-10, 09:39 PM   #7
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Well, I was just simply shocked to see that product name and shape are almost "same"(but the quality of carbon fiber is not sure.). Didn't mean like De Rosa is sucking the money. (Though I still think price of some carbon frames are way too high) Some suggests that the grade of carbon fiber of copy products are low and "OK for daily use for a few years, but not endurable for race and/or splint."

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Old 10-22-10, 09:47 AM   #8
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As i recollect, too, Italy (and maybe the EU in general?) has a pretty low standard of what constitutes "made in Italy"; something on the order of the final 10% of production, which powder coating might be enough for. (<-- don't quote me on that, my EU knowledge is spotty.) Many carbon bikes are made in China because the process is fairly environmentally toxic, never mind that labor is cheap (and the laborers also pay an environmental price in health; but like i wrote: they're cheap). It ain't pretty; it's just another day in globalization.

The process you're looking at is generally known as 山寨 (shan1zhai4)—other countries/people's R&D, and then the Chinese knock-off (which can be anywhere from same as OEM to much much less).
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Old 10-22-10, 12:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwdeegan View Post
As i recollect, too, Italy (and maybe the EU in general?) has a pretty low standard of what constitutes "made in Italy"; something on the order of the final 10% of production, which powder coating might be enough for. (<-- don't quote me on that, my EU knowledge is spotty.) Many carbon bikes are made in China because the process is fairly environmentally toxic, never mind that labor is cheap (and the laborers also pay an environmental price in health; but like i wrote: they're cheap). It ain't pretty; it's just another day in globalization.

The process you're looking at is generally known as 山寨 (shan1zhai4)—other countries/people's R&D, and then the Chinese knock-off (which can be anywhere from same as OEM to much much less).
+1 big time

I've been reading in the blogs where Orbea is getting hit with the same problem. The Orbea folks are not saints, they like to maximize profits too; they bring Taiwanese and Chinese frames to Spain and do a fancy paint job and call it "EU made". But that is not the end of the story, Orbea has honest-to-goodness R&D facilities, they test their stuff, they sponsor racing teams and collect real world data. They support their products. It's not just "flipping" a Chinese product. This goes to the core of why the WTO has their hands full with countries that practice intellectual property piracy. It's not cool at all.
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Old 10-24-10, 08:04 PM   #10
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http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspo...8-or-vega.html

I at least believed that the grade of carbon is different. Hmm.
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Old 10-24-10, 09:42 PM   #11
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As the blog notes, only a half a dozen facilities in the world have made the huge investments to properly lay down carbon fiber cheaply. It just makes no economic sense for a small manufacturer to make their own carbon fiber facility. The output would just be too expensive. These days a lot of the process is automated anyway and it makes not one iota of difference where on the planet the factory is at. The difference is in the R&D and post-sale support. In this 21st century of ours, all technology transfers from country to country at the speed of the web.

Ay Caramba, tough times are ahead for us all in the "developed" world... why would anyone want to pay a US/EU/Japanese engineer 60K USD a year anymore when someone in China or India or the former soviet union is willing to do the same stuff for 6K USD a year? The only things protecting us are branding and patents. Take that away and we are cooked.
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