Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-10-04, 11:41 AM   #1
cyclezealot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike
Posts: 13,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Overseas Forum members, think US motorists kill more cyclists than your motorists.?

I often try not to open notices of cyclists killed by motorists in the US..What you don't know does not hurt you.! ?
.Do foreign BF members get a sense of how often US cyclists seem to be killed and do you think your nation's cyclists are as much at risk.?
cyclezealot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-04, 04:01 PM   #2
bandaidman
go wake forest!!!!
 
bandaidman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
a 60 second search on google

per ntsb 622 cylists deaths on roads in 2003 (no note of cause or if auto involved)

great britain 136 in 2003 (no note on cause either)

population usa approx 300million, britain 60 million

on the basis of population the death rate is almost the same ...but note this is not controlled for #s of cyclists/miles ridden etc
bandaidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-04, 05:29 PM   #3
cyclezealot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike
Posts: 13,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Other factors to confuse statistics. Like mentioned by Bandainman, numbers of cyclists. But other factors...Design of roads, availability of bike lanes, Traffic congestion...When I have toured in Europe, sure seems cyclists are worshiped. ? As said, statistics do lie? Do European, Australian riders feel worshiped?
Somedays in the US I feel respected , other days cursed.
cyclezealot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-04, 06:17 PM   #4
SteveE
Veni, Vidi, Vomiti
 
SteveE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Anaerobia
Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti, Romani Columbus SL, Soma Doublecross
Posts: 3,582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezealot
Somedays in the US I feel respected , other days cursed.
I feel that way,too. But today, I felt blessed! In fact I was blessed along with my bike at the Blessing of the Bicycles
SteveE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-04, 09:36 PM   #5
Chris L
Every lane is a bike lane
 
Chris L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia - passionfruit capital of the universe!
Bikes:
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezealot
Other factors to confuse statistics. Like mentioned by Bandainman, numbers of cyclists. But other factors...Design of roads, availability of bike lanes, Traffic congestion...When I have toured in Europe, sure seems cyclists are worshiped. ? As said, statistics do lie? Do European, Australian riders feel worshiped?
Somedays in the US I feel respected , other days cursed.
I will again point out, it depends on which part of Australia you're referring to. In Victoria and Tasmania I've received much more accommodating treatment from motorists than what I'm used to up here in Queensland. So much so, that I've refrained from buying an apartment up here because of it.

As far as the statistics go, I think the thing we need to really look at here (and which they don't tell us) is exactly how each death occurs, and just who was killed. What percentage of them are children? Were they riding against the flow of traffic? Did they run a red light? To what extent was the driver responsible? Was it a deliberate act of assault (there have been at least two of those this year in Queensland, and probably a lot more unsuccessful attempts)?

Either way, I wouldn't be reading too much into the statistics.
__________________
"I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
"We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
My blog.
My bike tours. Japan tour page under construction.
Chris L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-04, 11:04 PM   #6
cyclezealot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike
Posts: 13,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
So Chris..How do you rate Queensland for numbers of cyclists? Pretty rare or popular. Only once in Europe did I feel a little trashed...There were so many cyclists on this one road on a Sunday,w/o bike lanes...It was like a parade of bikes.... really...The motorists just could not get around them... I saw some nasty comments that day..But that was the only time...
I have always suggested more cyclists, means we have to be respected..Not sure that day.
cyclezealot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-04, 04:19 AM   #7
Chris L
Every lane is a bike lane
 
Chris L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia - passionfruit capital of the universe!
Bikes:
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezealot
So Chris..How do you rate Queensland for numbers of cyclists? Pretty rare or popular.
I see quite a few here on the Gold Coast -- but most of them seem to be riding on the footpath usually -- unless they're the wannabe Lance type, whom you'll normally only see on the coastal strip early in the morning -- or in other "designated areas". Nobody ever joins me in the mountains, or in the traffic -- and to be honest that doesn't really bother me all that much.
__________________
"I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
"We invite everyone to question the entire culture we take for granted." - Manic Street Preachers.
My blog.
My bike tours. Japan tour page under construction.
Chris L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-04, 09:39 AM   #8
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 9,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris L
I think the thing we need to really look at here (and which they don't tell us) is exactly how each death occurs, and just who was killed.
Yep, that's the message I get. The story of how each death occured tells much more than how many died. I've looked into the circumstances of many cyclist deaths in my area and almost all of them were highly predictable and preventable. It seems to me, if you keep your eyes and ears open and ride with due diligence, you'll live a long and happy life as a cyclist.
closetbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-04, 10:29 AM   #9
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Statistics are inherently flawed. They are almost worthless without a context and an examination of the way it was collected.

Just read any newspaper with a poll to see yourself.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-04, 10:58 AM   #10
superstar4410
Senior Member
 
superstar4410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA
Bikes: Speed Demon
Posts: 167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by operator
statistics do lie?
No statistics dont lie, they can just be very very misleading and speak only a portion of the truth, not the full truth.
But I do agree that it seems like one can make stats say just about anything


[EDIT]

Well than again, maybe stats can state un-truths if the stat is based on faulty research, etc.
superstar4410 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-04, 11:00 AM   #11
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 9,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I finally found a post I made (it was on - have you been hit, will you be) that addressed overseas vs. North America accidents.

* Here are 3 other studies that find in comparison to the US, the safety record of Europe is much better (it's interesting though, that the way that is suggested to improve the already good safety record is doing what US advocates argue, have cyclists ride on streets rather than bike paths)

In the Netherlands, city dwellers travel by bike more than 25 percent of the time, according to a 2000 study at Rutgers University. For each 100 million of those trips, 1.6 Dutch cyclists were killed in accidents in 1995. By contrast, U.S. city dwellers travel by bike less than 1 percent of the time and die at a much higher rate when they do: 26.3 bike fatalities for every 100 million trips, according to the same study.

One recent study with a Setting at Copenhagen University Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark concluded: "Even after adjustment for other risk factors, including leisure time physical activity, those who did not cycle to work experienced a 39% higher mortality rate than those who did."
The source for the quote is "All-Cause Mortality Associated With Physical Activity During Leisure Time, Work, Sports, and Cycling to Work"

Bicycle use and safety in Paris, Boston and Amsterdam by Scott Osberg, Ph.D., and Sarah C. Stiles, Ph.D., J.D., Department of physical medicine and rehabilitation, New England Medical Center, and Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston.
Of the three cities, Boston has the fewest bicycles per hour at 55, Paris is next at 74, compared to at least 242 cyclists per hour in Amsterdam

The Netherlands appears to have a dramatically lower death rate forpeople in passenger cars and for the combined group of cyclists and passenger car occupants.
closetbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-04, 06:53 PM   #12
Flaneur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Do I feel worshipped? That's a tough one lol!

Only the graven image gets worshipped. In the flesh, I take my life in my hands every day- especially in congested cities, with lousy roads, lazy and impatient motorists, who feel immune to prosecution, thanks to our laws, and a poorly regulated road haulage industry, who put money in both of the major parties' coffers.

-of course, these complaints could originate from dozens of countries..............
Flaneur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-04, 11:50 PM   #13
jbhowat
@ Checkmate Cycling
 
jbhowat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: CAAD 8 - Ultegra
Posts: 1,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I get the worshipped feeling sometimes. When tackling the insane climbs around here, about 1 in 5 cars (there aren't many) will slow way down and actually pace me up the hill for a bit (like, they slow down from about 45+mph going up hill to get a good look at me suffering). About half of these cars contain families or younger couples, almost never do trucks slow down (going to/from the ranches). The other half of the cars that slow down are clearly cyclists, usually roadies.. (since the hill I'm getting this from isn't really near any Mt Bike paths). I can tell who is going to slow down when I glance back. You can tell the roadies cause they are usually in a small or somewhat inexpensive but nice european car, almost always adorned with the Thule or Yakima rack on the roof. They have an understanding grin on their face, and usually will give you a nod of respect if I make eye contact with them while they are pacing me (by about halfway up the hill I've got O2 deprivation so bad tunnel vision starts to set in pretty hardcore, so it takes a full head turn just to see that there is a car next me...) You can tell these guys (and girls) are feeling your pain, both wishing they were climbing along side you and at the same time thankful all they have to do is drop it into 1st to rocket back up the hill.
jbhowat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-04, 03:48 AM   #14
Pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Bikes: litespeed, cannondale
Posts: 2,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezealot
I often try not to open notices of cyclists killed by motorists in the US..What you don't know does not hurt you.! ?
.Do foreign BF members get a sense of how often US cyclists seem to be killed and do you think your nation's cyclists are as much at risk.?

I don't think much can be read into this one.

In just looking at motorist's response to cyclists, I have seen very large differences just on time of day and day of week.

Here in Central FL, the best time to ride is Sunday morning. The traffic is reasonably light and the drivers do not seem to be overly hostile.

Interestingly enough, before 7 AM on nearly any day is a good time to ride. The traffic is usually light and the early drivers are alert and far more courteous then at any other time.

I have that when I go to north FL (Live Oak), that the drivers in that area are far more courteous then the ones near Orlando. Near Orlando, many drivers see cyclists as nearly intolerable impediments to their driving enjoyment. In Live Oak, people seem to even like seeing cyclists - maybe things are quiet enough in Live Oak to make any change in routine welcome.

I know a small stretch of country roads near here with 35 mph speed limits. Now I often see drivers in most areas drive well over the speed limits. In this area, they don't for some reason even though the roads would allow it.

The point that I am making is that traffic volume, congestion and driver attitude vary by time of day, the road you are on and even the locale. I would think that these things would affect cycling fatality rates. Come to think of it, they would HAVE to. In the USA, something like 80% of the cycling fatalities involve a motorized vehicle. So take away the cars in the USA, and cycling fatalities go way down. Of course, if you take away the cars, maybe many, many more people ride bicycles so you would have more fatalities even though the rates per mile or hour would be lower.

Another thing, is Forester found that the more experienced the cyclist the longer he/she had to ride before they had an accident. Forester found that commuters, who rode on busy roads at peak traffic densities had the lowest accident rates. So the expertise of the cycling population could have a very large effect on the fatality rates.

Just the number of fatalities per country does not mean anything. It could be caused by the fact that no one in the country ever gets on a bike or there are no cars in the country, or the cyclists are all very well trained and so on.
Pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:53 AM.