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  1. #1
    Junior Member sunny_fruit's Avatar
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    New GENUS ...of Bicycle... Can you make this Sunnycle

    A few days ago accidentally invented a new kind of recumbent bicycle

    I made pictures(drawings) of this bike

    and because I am unable to do it ...
    ... and looks forward to seeing who will do it first


    It is:
    ...FrontWheelsDrive (lever)
    ...BothWheelsSteering (body)

    - lighter
    - faster
    - Front wheel drive
    - With an excellent aero-dynamic
    - The pedals move independently of one another
    - multi - speed lever drive
    - Free - Hands bicycle
    - Turbo Mode
    Last edited by sunny_fruit; 08-31-13 at 05:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    A rear-steering machine can start to oscillate very easily. They had a few rear steering cars but they were death traps.

    They've had various forms of treadle drive; you could probably google up some results on how well they worked or find the info in an old book.

    I see you have found the problem of how to keep the pedals from striking the front wheel while steering a short wheelbase recumbent without using a small front wheel or a high seating position. Other builders just use front wheel drive with front wheel steering, or a long wheelbase, or a small front wheel which steers, in order to clear the pedals. Rear steering just doesn't work unless you're going slow.

    Anyway, I don't want to be a naysayer but just so you're aware, that's the crux of the problem: when you steer with the rear, it can start to oscillate and get away from you. Your bike would have to solve that problem if it were to work.
    Last edited by garage sale GT; 02-14-11 at 03:09 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Look up patent drawings from the 1890s or so. It's all been tried.
    Gearhubs demystified and other cool stuff.


    The greatest mistake you can make in life is to be continually fearing you will make one. Elbert Hubbard.

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    http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/hoffmann.html

    read the text-this was the first example I thought of about the steering thing. It's also neat as heck, I think.

  5. #5
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    Yep, sorry... old as the hills. Some of the very first bicycles were treadle-driven.
    As well, I recall the little Honda scooter that was powered by a push-lever. My kid took it around the block
    a couple of times and it sat in the garage thereafter.....

  6. #6
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    Before you waste too much additional thought, there are also rowing-propelled bikes. Despite the fact that the various semi-linear drive systems have existed since the inception of bikes, speed records are all held by bikes with pedals that go around.

  7. #7
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    The question is,,,, can YOU build it?

    It might work really well, but a few points I'd make-

    1,,,,,,, rear-wheel-steering generally doesn't work well. A few designs are rideable, but none are positively-stable.

    2,,,,,,, prone bikes (laying on your chest) tend to be very uncomfortable to use for long periods, because of difficulty breathing and neck strain. Some record-attempt HPV's have been done this way.

    3,,,,,, treadle drive is not new, but the way you are using it might be. Will it have multiple gears, or is it a one-speed drive only?

    It might work out pretty well for some purpose, even if maybe not for a general-purpose bike.
    Good luck with building it.

  8. #8
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny_fruit View Post
    A new type of propulsion (lever)
    A new type of control (saddle-back)

    - lighter
    - faster
    - comfortable
    - Can be folded
    - Front wheel drive
    - With an excellent aero-dynamic
    - Simply arranged and therefore cheaper
    - The pedals move reciprocating - and not circular
    - The pedals move independently of one another
    - Velocities are stepless... smooth automatic



    That's very similar to the Alenax treadle drive bike:
    http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/weird_bike_stuff.htm



    Sorry, nothing you sketched is new.
    Jeff Wills

    All my bikes.

  9. #9
    Junior Member sunny_fruit's Avatar
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    This is the new:




    but this version that you stated ... you do not recommend it
    ... he is uncomfortable
    ... slower
    ... with poor aerodynamics
    ..
    . and without support
    .. someone once said - "give me support and I will pick up the world"

  10. #10
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    If I was going to try building a treadle drive bike I'd probably use a frame mounted transmission.

    Maybe use a 3 speed hub, with a belt from the hub to the drive wheel?

    If you want rear wheel steering, how about a trike instead of a bike?
    Use a hydraulic drive train with controls to vary the power to two rear wheels. You could borrow the basic design from a racing wheelchair.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprockets View Post
    I talk to myself regularly - crazy is the technical term I believe. The only time I shut up is when I'm riding. (that's the best time to listen to all those voices in your head :D )

  11. #11
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150 View Post
    1,,,,,,, rear-wheel-steering generally doesn't work well. A few designs are rideable, but none are positively-stable.

    This is just a thought that could make the bike doable. Some modern aircraft like the B2 are very unstable and would crash to the ground pretty quickly if not aided by computers that recalculate all the settings and make adjustments to the aircraft's control surfaces at a very high frequency. So, make a bike that is "ride by wire". where you do not actually steer the bike, but do give steering input to a control stick and the bike calculates what is needed to keep itself stable and performs the steering manuvers that you request.
    Last edited by Artkansas; 02-13-11 at 07:56 AM.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  12. #12
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    Wow, it's like deja vu all over again. He didn't get the response he wanted here:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-this-Sunnycle

    so he brought it to this forum. Most recently that I'm aware of, Sherer USA produced a lever-powered tadpole trike a couple of years ago. It was apparently a flop, because although you can find lots of references to it, they don't have a web presence anymore.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
    Wow, it's like deja vu all over again. He didn't get the response he wanted here:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-this-Sunnycle

    so he brought it to this forum. ...
    Ummm, you linked back to this same topic? Did he post it elsehwere?.......

    Most recently that I'm aware of, Sherer USA produced a lever-powered tadpole trike a couple of years ago. It was apparently a flop, because although you can find lots of references to it, they don't have a web presence anymore.

    I like the concept of treadle/lever drive, specifically one that allows you to use any length of pedal stroke you wish. I/m not sure if the Sherer trike allowed this or not; many others didn't because both pedals are linked by a cable so pushing one down pulls the other up.

    I think for casual use it would provide a big improvement in efficiency/comfort for the rider--but at the same time it would be a lot heavier than more complicated than what most bicycles use now. For years I lacked the tools to even attempt building it. I have the tools now, but since I don't have the room to store such a thing,,, I dunno if I'll ever get to building one. :|

  14. #14
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150 View Post
    Ummm, you linked back to this same topic? Did he post it elsehwere?.......
    Sorry - he's even confusing me. Yes, he posted this on both the General forum and the Recumbent forum.

    Edit: Mods (?) moved it so it shows in both places.

    In the promotionals for the Sherer trike, Sherer didn't seem to understand the difference between leverage and power. I see lever-powered bikes in the same vein as automatic shifting: a non-solution to fix a non-problem, and making things worse in the process. In the case of lever-drive, there is a massive dead spot as the legs come to a complete stop at the bottom of each stroke, and must re-accelerate back up to the top of the stroke. Plus, whatever (spring?) tension is used to return the lever to the top must be overcome when pushing down, before any real work is done.
    Last edited by BlazingPedals; 02-13-11 at 05:11 PM.

  15. #15
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny_fruit View Post
    This is the new:




    but this version that you stated ... you do not recommend it
    ... he is uncomfortable
    ... slower
    ... with poor aerodynamics
    ..
    . and without support
    .. someone once said - "give me support and I will pick up the world"
    What's new? Everything you have drawn there has been tried many times since bicycles were invented.
    Jeff Wills

    All my bikes.

  16. #16
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
    What's new? Everything you have drawn there has been tried many times since bicycles were invented.
    Even the 32" wheels.

  17. #17
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    it will never work Tennesee, it will never work.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo SOLd, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis SOLD, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti SOLD, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

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  18. #18
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    He's apparently posting this on other forums, too. I can think of a forum or two that won't give him the polite treatment he's received here.

  19. #19
    Junior Member sunny_fruit's Avatar
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    ...Yes, it is parsed this thread and in other forums

    .. want to know what they think of these new ideas that I propose

    if this is something unacceptable in this forum ... please delete the topic

  20. #20
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    sunny_fruit... most of us are not really trying to be rude, but it's worth noting that a LOT of oddball stuff has been tried with bicycles over the last ~125+ years. It's very difficult to re-arrange the basic pieces and claim to have something that is new yet rideable, and reasonably efficient.

    As fond as I am of the lever-drive concept myself, I seem to recall someone noting that lever/linear-drive pedaling systems were tried many times in the IHPVA speed record trials (where anything is legal to use) and yet no such system ever took first place in any year it's been held.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
    ...In the promotionals for the Sherer trike, Sherer didn't seem to understand the difference between leverage and power. I see lever-powered bikes in the same vein as automatic shifting: a non-solution to fix a non-problem, and making things worse in the process. In the case of lever-drive, there is a massive dead spot as the legs come to a complete stop at the bottom of each stroke, and must re-accelerate back up to the top of the stroke. Plus, whatever (spring?) tension is used to return the lever to the top must be overcome when pushing down, before any real work is done.
    The problem that a round crank has is that it restricts the rider to one length of leg extension all the time. That's not how any animal's legs work: when you jog, you take longer strides when you start out, and shorter strides as you get tired. You take longer strides downhill and shorter strides uphill, unless it's a short & steep uphill section, and then you take lunges.

    I don't think there's really any value for being able to "pull up" on the pedals for casual riders. There's been studies done that show that many pro riders don't even do it as much as they think they do, even during races.
    I suspect that (at least for casual riders) they would be far better off with a pedal system that let you use the largest leg muscles more efficiently, and didn't use the weaker hamstring muscles at all.

  21. #21
    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny_fruit View Post
    ...Yes, it is parsed this thread and in other forums

    .. want to know what they think of these new ideas that I propose

    if this is something unacceptable in this forum ... please delete the topic
    It's not that your post is unacceptable. What we're trying to say is that your ideas:
    1. are hardly new - treadle bikes were built and sold in the 1800s,
    2. will be neither lighter nor more efficient,
    3. less aerodynamic than many current recumbents, and
    4. as drawn, will be unrideable.

    I invite you to prove us wrong! Build one and submit a video of you riding it. I'm not sure why you're posting it in the first place. Until you have a working model, it's just vaporware. Are you trying to attract investors or something? Not likely to happen, I think; but ya never know...

  22. #22
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    The treadle style most definately is not new. Though it never really seemed to catch on it does work. Rear wheel steering does sound like a nightmare to me, though in truth I've never had the opportunity to try one.

    I own and occasionally operate three Alenax Mtn. bikes and they don't seem any more tiresome to ride than any other bike. The two lever style pedal devises are conected with a length of chain and cable so that as one get depressed the other one rises. Mine are all 4-speed setups. I won't try to guess which style of pedaling is more effecient as I'm not educated in that vein, but I do enjoy the Alenax bikes as much as my uprights and recumbents. Fun, after all, is what it's all about. Right?

    So build a few prototypes, try to work out the bugs, and see where it goes.



    Last edited by cranky old dude; 02-16-11 at 08:20 AM.

  23. #23
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Those are some interesting pictures!
    Got any photographs of a bike or bike parts?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    RANS V3 (steel), RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer

  24. #24
    Retro on steroids Repack Rider's Avatar
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    Found this thread by tracking back the link to my site to the photo of the Alenax.

    While "Cranky Old Dude" defends the Alenax, I actually rode the one in the photo on my website. It is the worst bicycle design I have ever tried.

    On a rotary crankset the rider's weight is balanced on the bottom bracket. On the Alenax it is a crank length FORWARD of the BB, and that changes...well, everything. The effect is that unweighting the front wheel to float over an obstacle while applying power is not an option. You can't "wheelie," because you can't lift the front wheel an inch off the ground. Then of course you have the "pole vault" crank hanging down, waiting to snag on anything.

    I have a couple of pages on my website, which have already been mined for display here, of weird bike stuff that was supposed to revolutionize the industry. So far, the only people who really did that were the mountain bikers.
    It don't mean a feng if it ain't got that
    shui.

  25. #25
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repack Rider View Post
    Found this thread by tracking back the link to my site to the photo of the Alenax.

    While "Cranky Old Dude" defends the Alenax, I actually rode the one in the photo on my website. It is the worst bicycle design I have ever tried.

    On a rotary crankset the rider's weight is balanced on the bottom bracket. On the Alenax it is a crank length FORWARD of the BB, and that changes...well, everything. The effect is that unweighting the front wheel to float over an obstacle while applying power is not an option. You can't "wheelie," because you can't lift the front wheel an inch off the ground. Then of course you have the "pole vault" crank hanging down, waiting to snag on anything.

    I have a couple of pages on my website, which have already been mined for display here, of weird bike stuff that was supposed to revolutionize the industry. So far, the only people who really did that were the mountain bikers.
    Thanks for the link to your site.
    Not sure where we'd be today if you guys hadn't given us mountain bikes.

    Many recumbent devotees are sure that 'bents are the Next Big Thing, but I don't see that happening, as much as I love 'bent-riding. (Much better chance for recumbents to take over the world than Alenax, though)
    Last edited by JanMM; 02-22-11 at 05:57 PM.
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