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Old 09-25-11, 03:10 PM   #1
SlimRider
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Would Dorel Industries Change Anything About GT, Schwinn, Mongoose or Cannondale?

Currently Dorel Industries owns GT, Mongoose, Schwinn, and Cannondale bicycle companies. All that means, is that they own the name brands.

At one time I'm certain that GT, Mongoose, Schwinn, and Cannondale all had their own specific aluminum processing methods and formulations for their own respective bicycles. However, since these companies have come under the singular control of Dorel industries, they are now subject to a wide variety of diverse types of changes. Changes that will more than likely contribute more towards increasing the profit margins of Dorel Industries and the not benefit the world cyclist.

I personally believe that the world cycling community loses when corporations like Dorel Industries acquire and merge bicycle companies. The technological competition between these companies now no longer exists. Innovation and creativity have both been stifled. Therefore, technological growth has been stunted.

For all we know, there may be absolutely no difference between an aluminum Mongoose frame and a Cannondale frame. There may be identical formulations for all companies in terms of both aluminum processing and bicycle production. The same workers in Taiwan making a Cannondale on Monday, may be making a Schwinn on Tuesday.

As long as Cannondale was an independent bicycle manufacturer separate from Schwinn, and Schwinn separate from GT, we were promised more exciting industrial competition from these companies.

While it may be in the best interest of Dorel Industries to continue profoundly incessant research and development in both the formulation and design of various bicycle materials, it's progress will be stifled by the lack of competitive incentive.

So when these bicycle companies are acquired by conglomerates, do you think that they are allowed to maintain a genuine separate identity? Are they then further allowed the freedom to evolve from their own technological DNA and spawn new zygotes?

I would think not!

These huge PacMan-like acqusitions and mergers are therefore, devouring technological progress all in the name of profit.

Who knows what an independent Cannondale or Schwinn would have come up with by now?

Would Dorel Industries change anything about GT, Schwinn, Mongoose, or Cannondale?

You'd bet they would!

They'd make them more similar, thereby reducing future comfort and bicycle efficiency for the world cyclist.

Therefore, the world cyclist, loses again!

- Slim

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Old 09-25-11, 04:41 PM   #2
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First thing they did with Schwinn was hit price points so they could sell them at WM, however they still left an LBS line available (the ones that show up on the Schwinn website). They have done little but ***** the name in pursuit of profits. Ditto GT and Mongoose. They haven't done it with Cannondale...yet, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Old 09-25-11, 05:25 PM   #3
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When competition decreases, the surviving corporations are usually the winners and consumers are usually the losers. That's why we used to have regulations that prohibited the formation of monopolies, oligopolies, and trusts.
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Old 09-25-11, 06:35 PM   #4
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In some cases the companies name is all that is acquired when a big company takes over. Every industry has examples of this. Saab was going belly up when GM bought them. I don't know what will happen with them now but Saab died when they were taken over. Only the name lived on. I wonít get into what BMW did to Mini-Cooper but Colin Chapman is lucky he died. Schwinn was on the ropes because of bad management and should have died a natural death but the name had value to someone. Sometimes the acquired company gets a second chance. Mazda lived under Ford and Nissan lives under Renault. Haro is doing a lot with Masi and they have a nice full line of bikes from Steel to CF. Companies have learned you can beat anti-trust laws by keeping the company you buy alive under new ownership. Jeep has been owned by many companies just because they wanted Jeep.

The real issue is customer acceptance. If you canít sell your product in one on one competition it will do little or no good to try and keep your company alive with regulation. If you let the company fail it opens the door for a bevy of small businesses to fill any customer need that is lost to the failure. Where the customer gets hammered is in the price the small businesses will charge to fill that consumer desire in many cases. There are more than enough companies to fill any hole Cannondale may or may not leave.


Just to give you a hint on how life works. Research who helped Apple bring back Steve Jobs when they were down to less than 3 percent of the market share. The first meeting Jobs had when he came back was to announce he had accepted a loan to improve Apple from a man named Bill. Does that sound like compitition to anyone else?
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Old 09-25-11, 06:54 PM   #5
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In some cases the companies name is all that is acquired when a big company takes over. Every industry has examples of this. Saab was going belly up when GM bought them. I don't know what will happen with them now but Saab died when they were taken over. Only the name lived on. I won’t get into what BMW did to Mini-Cooper but Colin Chapman is lucky he died. Schwinn was on the ropes because of bad management and should have died a natural death but the name had value to someone. Sometimes the acquired company gets a second chance. Mazda lived under Ford and Nissan lives under Renault. Haro is doing a lot with Masi and they have a nice full line of bikes from Steel to CF. Companies have learned you can beat anti-trust laws by keeping the company you buy alive under new ownership. Jeep has been owned by many companies just because they wanted Jeep.

The real issue is customer acceptance. If you can’t sell your product in one on one competition it will do little or no good to try and keep your company alive with regulation. If you let the company fail it opens the door for a bevy of small businesses to fill any customer need that is lost to the failure. Where the customer gets hammered is in the price the small businesses will charge to fill that consumer desire in many cases. There are more than enough companies to fill any hole Cannondale may or may not leave.


Just to give you a hint on how life works. Research who helped Apple bring back Steve Jobs when they were down to less than 3 percent of the market share. The first meeting Jobs had when he came back was to announce he had accepted a loan to improve Apple from a man named Bill. Does that sound like compitition to anyone else?
It was an absolute pleasure to read your take on this, Bob!

You're quite obviously an inteligent guy with insight.

I really do appreciate your contribution.

Thanks

- Slim
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Old 09-26-11, 03:52 PM   #6
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First thing they did with Schwinn was hit price points so they could sell them at WM, however they still left an LBS line available (the ones that show up on the Schwinn website). They have done little but ***** the name in pursuit of profits. Ditto GT and Mongoose. They haven't done it with Cannondale...yet, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Aaron
Let there be no mistake about it!

These are industrial profiteers. They couldn't care less if they were selling skates, fish, or toilet paper. They just want to turn a profit.

Nothing wrong with profit, but it would be nice to have a genuine technological conscience!

- Slim
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Old 09-26-11, 06:16 PM   #7
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I agree that there is nothing wrong with profit...unless that is the one and only goal at any cost, then there is an issue.

Aaron
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Old 09-26-11, 06:27 PM   #8
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Let there be no mistake about it!

These are industrial profiteers. They couldn't care less if they were selling skates, fish, or toilet paper. They just want to turn a profit.

Nothing wrong with profit, but it would be nice to have a genuine technological conscience!

- Slim
Every successful company you can think of either makes a profit or they file for chapter 13. The problem is all of these companies that have been absorbed by the bigger companies were failing. They were failing because they couldnít get the consumer to pay more for their product or enough for their product to survive.

I have been looking at frames for a build from scratch and only the bigger companies seem to be able to sell one at a reasonable price. Yes I realize that custom frame builders have to charge more because they have to pay more for materials and labor. But to the consumer there has to be something more than a good feeling they might get by supporting a local builder. There is the bottom line of that consumerís budget. I did get a link to Soma that shows promise for a bare frame.

I simply donít know how you will ever find a company that can build without catering to their base customer. Unless we are talking some government controlled company that the tax payers take a loss on like a transit company. Yes they meet a need but they donít provide quality at a price most consumers are willing to pay. And that is your dilemma, at what point does customer loyalty lose out to price?
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Old 09-26-11, 06:28 PM   #9
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I agree that there is nothing wrong with profit...unless that is the one and only goal at any cost, then there is an issue.

Aaron
I read some corporation bought Fender then proceeded to make sub-par guitars. They ended up going back to their "old ways" to get customers back.

They wouldn't be able to screw customers for too long if they wanted to. But, maybe some people buying department store bicycles wouldn't know the difference. I still ride a department store bicycle but once I complete my touring bike, I may end up riding it way more.

The only things I don't like about my department store bike is the weight, cheap Tourney rear derailleur and the fact it has old standards like a freewheel and threaded stem. It also has plastic crank arms which I find peculiar since I haven't had a problem with them yet even though I don't do 12 foot drops on my bike.
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Old 09-26-11, 07:01 PM   #10
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Brands come and go, it's always been like that and always will. If a high-quality brand gets turned into a budget brand, people figure it out pretty quick.
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Old 09-26-11, 08:19 PM   #11
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I don't see how Dorel has hurt the industry. My understanding is they "saved" Schwinn. Schwinn, GT and Cannondale still put out quality bikes at competitive prices.
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Old 09-26-11, 11:05 PM   #12
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I don't see how Dorel has hurt the industry. My understanding is they "saved" Schwinn. Schwinn, GT and Cannondale still put out quality bikes at competitive prices.
Just think...Schwinn isn't Schwinn anymore...GT isn't GT anymore...and Mongoose isn't Mongoose anymore. They're all under the umbrella of Dorel Industries. It was to the best interest for Dorel to "save" the name of Schwinn. Especially, when you consider the fact that was the sole purpose they purchased Schwinn in the first place. There once was a time when the Schwinn name was equivalent with quality. Dorel intended to capitalize upon that fact. With the proper marketing tools, they should have accomplished that goal by now. However, they have not! The Schwinn name continues to dwindle.

Dorel has not and will not announce any major technological break throughs because there is no incentive for laboratory scientists or engineers to become innovative. There's no CEO that's gonna say, " Come up with something that will rival the compound that Trek has come up with as an anti-oxidation additve in their aluminum matrix".

It's just business as usual...quality controlled status quo.

No competion. No inter-company scientific rivalries. No innovation. No creativity. No invention.

It's just the "Keep 'em coming, baby!" attitude, that's gonna destroy the innovative spirit of the once loyal American companies, who once had a reason to technologically excel!

In my heart of hearts, I want aluminum to become a product that has no material peers. However, in light of the current American (International) business strategy of today, that's not going to happen!

- Slim
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Old 09-27-11, 12:38 AM   #13
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You worry too much.

If technology were to stop with Aluminum, Steel or Titanium you might have a point. But Doral has shown some innovation in clothing, (I have some of their cycling gear) furniture, child seats, and now maybe they will with Cannondale. The Bicycle brands up to now have been mostly big box store brands only now are they moving towards LBS bicycles. Still we are seeing a move away from metals and towards Kevlar and other manufactured products for cars, Trains, Planes, Boats, Bicycles, Guns and even rockets and space shuttles. Even Bows and arrows are hardly ever made of wood anymore.

It does seem strange to hear someone professing tradition as much as you have in past threads longing for technology in bicycling? Technology has given us Di2 shifters, Ceramic bearings, carbon fiber just about everything, built in Cycling computers or at least the sending units. I donít see Doral curbing Cannondale from following everyone else in this regard.

I have a friend that has a CF bike with Mavic CF wheels and Mavic CF spokes. The brakes are CF, seat post is CF, he had a CF saddle but it was way too hard. CF bottle cages, CF pedals and cleats but he does use Titanium saddle rails and QR rods. That is technology for better or worse.
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Old 09-27-11, 03:41 AM   #14
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Just think...Schwinn isn't Schwinn anymore...GT isn't GT anymore...and Mongoose isn't Mongoose anymore. They're all under the umbrella of Dorel Industries. It was to the best interest for Dorel to "save" the name of Schwinn. Especially, when you consider the fact that was the sole purpose they purchased Schwinn in the first place. There once was a time when the Schwinn name was equivalent with quality. Dorel intended to capitalize upon that fact. With the proper marketing tools, they should have accomplished that goal by now. However, they have not! The Schwinn name continues to dwindle.

Dorel has not and will not announce any major technological break throughs because there is no incentive for laboratory scientists or engineers to become innovative. There's no CEO that's gonna say, " Come up with something that will rival the compound that Trek has come up with as an anti-oxidation additve in their aluminum matrix".

It's just business as usual...quality controlled status quo.

No competion. No inter-company scientific rivalries. No innovation. No creativity. No invention.

It's just the "Keep 'em coming, baby!" attitude, that's gonna destroy the innovative spirit of the once loyal American companies, who once had a reason to technologically excel!

In my heart of hearts, I want aluminum to become a product that has no material peers. However, in light of the current American (International) business strategy of today, that's not going to happen!

- Slim
I don't see how that hurts the industry. So what if Dorel doesn't want to put forth the RD that Trek does? Schwinn's are still decent bikes.
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Old 09-27-11, 03:46 AM   #15
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You worry too much.

If technology were to stop with Aluminum, Steel or Titanium you might have a point. But Doral has shown some innovation in clothing, (I have some of their cycling gear) furniture, child seats, and now maybe they will with Cannondale. Even Bows and arrows are hardly ever made of wood anymore.

It does seem strange to hear someone professing tradition as much as you have in past threads longing for technology in bicycling? Technology has given us Di2 shifters, Ceramic bearings, carbon fiber just about everything, built in Cycling computers or at least the sending units. I donít see Doral curbing Cannondale from following everyone else in this regard.

I have a friend that has a CF bike with Mavic CF wheels and Mavic CF spokes. The brakes are CF, seat post is CF, he had a CF saddle but it was way too hard. CF bottle cages, CF pedals and cleats but he does use Titanium saddle rails and QR rods. That is technology for better or worse.


WOOD ? The original carbon fiber ?
PS:
I have a steel commuter/utility bike and an alumnium road bike - like them both for their material specific attributes. My partner has a CF road ride - which is her favorite bike - due to the feel. STILL nice to have choices.
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Old 09-27-11, 07:34 AM   #16
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Oh no! The 'evil' corporations. Gees. Get over it.
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Old 09-27-11, 04:18 PM   #17
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Doesn't this belong in the politics forum? More political/economics theory veiled as "general cycling."

Slim, I think we understand your incessant need to fluff your cycling theories to help push your political economic world view on the BF populace. But enough with the ask a question followed by immediately answering it. You clearly care little about what others think and are primarily concerned with "educating" others with your own narrow take on the dark and scary world of big corporate conspiracy. Don't you ever just enjoy talking about cycling????

:::yawn:::
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Old 09-27-11, 04:28 PM   #18
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Waterford is the descendant of the Schwinn name sale,
Paramounts with a update as materials evolved..

Now Gunnar is their TIG welded batch made line, still coming out of the US upper midwest.

soiling the heritage after buying the name to get that heritage is common, it seems..


Bikes Direct is all a bunch of familiar names , nothing more.. the Importer chooses
the contract details.

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Old 09-27-11, 04:41 PM   #19
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Doesn't this belong in the politics forum? More political/economics theory veiled as "general cycling."

Slim, I think we understand your incessant need to fluff your cycling theories to help push your political economic world view on the BF populace. But enough with the ask a question followed by immediately answering it. You clearly care little about what others think and are primarily concerned with "educating" others with your own narrow take on the dark and scary world of big corporate conspiracy. Don't you ever just enjoy talking about cycling????

:::yawn:::
Haven't you read my many other posts. I am NOT a one dimensional person you know.

Wonder if the Third Reich had conspiracies?

What do you call "plans" about competitors at business board meetings?

Wonder if politicians have "plans" to get re-elected?

Wonder if any of those "plans" have anything to do with discrediting the opposite party?

Wake up and smell the coffee!

- Slim
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Old 09-27-11, 08:23 PM   #20
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You know, I wrote a response and it was promptly lost to an "oops." Probably better that way.

It is enough simply to say Slim that your insistence on pressing you political economy viewpoint in what are supposed to be cycling forums (Road and Gen Cyc) is annoying and intellectually dishonest. You repeatedly push your worldview under the guise of cycling discussion but when people respond with decades of professional, first hand knowledge you dismiss them and fall back to your own political economy bias. Facts, truth, and educated discussion all take a back seat in your dogmatic approach. I mean look at your response to my post.... "Third Reich," "re-election" and "opposite parties" yammering. Seriously?? You come to a cycling forum to vent this political crap???? Meh, it isn't mine to scold, it is the admins' so have at it. Just realize that threads like this and your alum/hoax/conspiracy ones probably are more appropriately placed in the "politics and religion" forum as that is clearly what your focus is. However, I do realize I need not read or respond your "less than" politicized threads so by all means carry on friend.....
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Old 09-28-11, 05:21 AM   #21
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You know, I wrote a response and it was promptly lost to an "oops." Probably better that way.

It is enough simply to say Slim that your insistence on pressing you political economy viewpoint in what are supposed to be cycling forums (Road and Gen Cyc) is annoying and intellectually dishonest. You repeatedly push your worldview under the guise of cycling discussion but when people respond with decades of professional, first hand knowledge you dismiss them and fall back to your own political economy bias. Facts, truth, and educated discussion all take a back seat in your dogmatic approach. I mean look at your response to my post.... "Third Reich," "re-election" and "opposite parties" yammering. Seriously?? You come to a cycling forum to vent this political crap???? Meh, it isn't mine to scold, it is the admins' so have at it. Just realize that threads like this and your alum/hoax/conspiracy ones probably are more appropriately placed in the "politics and religion" forum as that is clearly what your focus is. However, I do realize I need not read or respond your "less than" politicized threads so by all means carry on friend.....
Hi there Hokuloa!

It's highly unfortunate that you unlike so many others, fail to see my point about the technological benefits that we as cyclists stand to lose due to the consumption of American bicycle manufacturing companies. Perhaps, if you had some sense of appreciation for the postive affects of competition, the concept would become more lucid
to you.

Anyway, the bottomline, is that I've really just been talking about cycling all along. Cycling and how it has been negatively affected by industrialists. There's nothing wrong with the idea of industry or profits. It's just that when it affects us as cyclists. I think that we all should be concerned.

Since Dorel Industries owns Cannondale, Schwinn, GT, and Mongoose, wouldn't you find it strange, that all frames where made in the exact same plant, by the exact same people? The only difference in models being perhaps in the color scheme and perhaps a few decals.

Then when the bikes get shipped to the US from Taiwan, they go to different stores and have different prices, yet there essentially the same bicycle. Is that disingenuous or not?

Should cyclists be concerned about that or not?

This is a cycling community concern. It's also about presenting the world cyclist with quality bicycles instead of metal junk coming off of assembly lines.

I must apologize at this time if you take offense. However, I will continue my quest to tell the truth about what I perceive of as unfair, to the cycling community.

Have A Nice Day!

- Slim

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Old 09-28-11, 07:32 AM   #22
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Since Dorel Industries owns Cannondale, Schwinn, GT, and Mongoose, wouldn't you find it strange, that all frames where made in the exact same plant, by the exact same people? The only difference in models being perhaps in the color scheme and perhaps a few decals.
You might want to look into this a little further. GTs certainly have different frames. Perhaps you can show us which Cannondales are actually Schwinns in disguse??? I just got a new bike and looked at many makes and models and I didn't spot any GTs or Cannondales that were really Schwinns with different decals.

It is possible for a single manufacturing plant to make different products for different brands/companies - happens all the time in car audio for example. Just because your Schwinn was manufactured at the same plant as a Cannondale doesn't make it Cannondale or vice-versa. Dorel owns a tons of brands in all sorts of different industries and delievers tons of good products to consumers.
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Old 09-28-11, 07:44 AM   #23
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There is another Canadian company that is privately owned and its not run like Dorel's Cannondale.
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Old 09-28-11, 08:00 AM   #24
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Not all the mega bike companies run the same business plan as Dorel. QBP for example who owns Salsa, Surly, Civia, and others seems to be doing it right.
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Old 09-28-11, 08:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
You might want to look into this a little further. GTs certainly have different frames. Perhaps you can show us which Cannondales are actually Schwinns in disguse??? I just got a new bike and looked at many makes and models and I didn't spot any GTs or Cannondales that were really Schwinns with different decals.

It is possible for a single manufacturing plant to make different products for different brands/companies - happens all the time in car audio for example. Just because your Schwinn was manufactured at the same plant as a Cannondale doesn't make it Cannondale or vice-versa. Dorel owns a tons of brands in all sorts of different industries and delievers tons of good products to consumers.
Hi there Jim!

I am not actually accusing Dorel of this practice just yet. However, I am stating that the opportunity presents itself to exploit. Rarely do busunesses not cut corners to increase profit margins.

Will GT bikes begin to look more like Schwinns? .....Will Cannondales lend more of their characteristics to Mongoose?

How much does it take to make an alternative adjustment in the assembly line, to produce something that looks slightly different in construction?

Competition is our friend, the more of it we have, the better products and services will become.

- Slim

Last edited by SlimRider; 09-29-11 at 05:10 PM.
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