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  1. #26
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    I thought you liked the frames of walmart bikes?
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  2. #27
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Annoying

  3. #28
    Must... ride... more... Phil_gretz's Avatar
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    To the OP...

    ...um...HELLO... it's a cyclocross bike with an entry-level price tag for a bike store. What exactly do you want in you CX bike anyway? You'd be riding it on non-paved courses, likely through mud and grime, carrying it for stretches. Find the price point you can handle and choose from among the bikes that are available to you. Ride them and report on what you find. The rest is a useless waste of hot air.

    I would think that a straight steel CX bike would be an afterthought on Trek's part, trying to capture a part of a niche market as it is.

    Also, don't dis older frames and components. You might be surprised how wonderful they are to ride with the proper wheel/tire combination(s).

    Enough of all of this jibber jabber. Go ride your bike.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    I thought you liked the frames of walmart bikes?


    I have the capacity to admire their "beauty" from afar...far away, afar!

    Really though, all joking aside...the Schwinn bikes in Walmart are really beginning to improve.

    Also, any steel bicycle found in Walmart deserves a second look. Good components can be added to the frame to make a great bicycle, for the budget-minded commuter.

    - Slim

  5. #30
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    I'll take no directives from you, thank you!

    I happen to own two retro bikes. I don't "dis" them either! That would be difficult to do, considering the fact that I've been riding for over three decades. None of them are Hi-Tensile steel, though. I can handle any price point below $5000. I've already decided never to spend more than that on a custom frame and that's probably too much for just a darned bicycle.

    ...um...HELLO...Who cares about it being an entry level whatever? I looked on Trek's website and saw a matte black CX steel bicycle. Which is something that I have been yearning for some time now. My first thought was, "Wow, that inexpensive! I'll get it!" However, the fact that it was Hi-Tensile steel, was hidden. Hidden for good reason in my opinion.

    Trek's afterthought being a hi-tensile steel CX bicycle just may have been enough to tarnish their image just a little more. Most businesses don't go into full production of anything without planning it out first. The mere suggestion of that idea, sounds kind of frivolous. Certainly, not integral of business!

    - Slim

    PS.

    Phil, you go ride your bicycle!
    Last edited by SlimRider; 10-21-11 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Annoying
    Your Walmart bike is in the mail buddy!

  7. #32
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    BD has a high end steel (maybe 725) lugged frame bike that might interest you. On the other hand, it's not matte black and it has these motobecane decals on it, so it might not be all that appealing.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  8. #33
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    If I should let the Lane go, then why not raise the status of all big box bike frames made of Hi-tensile steel?

    Again, we don't compare current bicycle models of today with bicycles of yesteryear. Today's technology can better afford us cycling of the utmost in ride efficiency and comfort. Who cares about what was accepted as above entry level in road bikes back during the bronze age. We're talking about today! An age which brings us the best in chromoly steel and the most ubiquitous in information. There's no need to obscure your label and tarnish your image, simultaneously.

    Inform all of your CS people and your people located in these local bike stores, just what you're peddling. That way they can honestly sell goods and services to people who are deserving as much. Most people, these days in cycling, don't want to ride a Hi-Tensile steel Walmart type bicycle. Especially, after thinking that they've purchase some type of space-aged, "platinum series steel", avangard, model of a CX bicycle.

    State clearly what you're offering to sell me and I'll decide my purchase, based upon the information I'm given. That's it! It's as simple as that!

    Huh!...Let it go_______!

    - Slim
    You are tilting at windmills again, Slim.

    You are basing your arguments on information that I would call dodgy at best. Consider your source...a know nothing phone rep at Trek.

    All steel has a high tensile strength so they could all be called 'hi ten' steel. Some have a slightly higher tensile strength than others so they can be used in smaller quantities and still provide enough strength to be useable. A frame that is uses carbon steel...the stuff that was called 'hi ten' steel back in the day...probably isn't going to be drawn into "Custom-butted Platinum series steel". Pigs ear/silk purse. Most likely, the steel used for the Trek Lane is a 4100 series steel with from 0.5% to 0.9% chromium and 0.12% to 0.3% molybdenum in it.

    Helmart and Big Box store steel bikes aren't going to have butted frames of any kind. If they have any chromium or molybdenum in them, it's probably because the scrap that they are made from had those components in it. In other words, not a lot of attention to details. But then if you are paying $89.99 for a complete bicycle, what do you expect?

    Helmart bikes are what they are...plain and simple. You can put all kinds of lipstick on them but they are still going to be pigs. They might be purty pigs but they are still going to be pigs.

    The Lane, and other steel bikes at it's level including the Randonee, LHT, Soma, etc, are a much higher quality bike. I, personally won't go out and buy any of the above given my meh? attitude towards steel, but you could buy the Lane and ride it with the confidence that it's a good bike at a pretty good price. It's not a rip-off or a scam. You're just reading too much into it.
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  9. #34
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Not true! Hi-Tensile steel is exactly what you might expect from a big-box-bicycle outlet like Walmart, K-mart, Target, etc.. From whom else would you expect to purchase a Hi-Tenslie steel bicycle?
    That's usually the kind of place where you'd look for such a bicycle. Who most certainly wouldn't go to Trek of all places to find a bicycle framed in Hi-tensile steel. C'mon MechBgon!
    I hate to break it to you, but there's a ton of quality-brand bikes out there with at least some high-tensile steel tubing. It's simply silly to say "oh, well if it's made of HT steel then it must be Walmart quality." Having built several Lanes, I know that's an out-and-out falsehood. They're made as well as any of Trek's other production bikes.


    How could you even refer to the Lane, while at the same time mention bicycles such as the Randonee and the CrossCheck? Both of those bicycles are made of chromoly steel. Chromoly steel is much stronger and lighter than Hi-Tensile steel.
    And neither of the competitors has the expensive STI shifters as a result. Hi-ten steel isn't as strong? Correct! That's why they use more of it which is why I offered to weigh a Lane, if you wanted to know how much more. Having ridden various Randonees and CrossChecks, as well as the Lane, I don't think there's an appreciable difference in ride quality, at least not when equipped with touring/urban tires as intended.

    As for the Platinum moniker... well, this DOES come from a company that likes to call their Madone frame a "fuselage" just to make themselves sound important

  10. #35
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    Walmart bikes are beautiful, Trek bikes are Walmart bikes with higher end components, aluminum sucks, yada, yada, yada. I'm convinced, I'm getting me a Walmart bike and selling my POS Specialized aluminum excuse for a bike. I'll use those funds to outfit the Walmart bike with higher end components and basically I'll end up with a $1000 Trek CX bike for next to nothing. Who needs Trek when you have Walmart.

  11. #36
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Before Carbon, AlAn, cross frames were what you saw
    ridden by all the top pro's on the Podium.

  12. #37
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Here are some photos of the 2011 Lane, btw. Nice welds, gussets, shaped stays, brazed-in rack mounts (not riv-nuts), sliding rear dropouts. It's a respectably-built frame.








  13. #38
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    Slim, once again back to my original point. You are letting some uknowledgeable noob PR person or two at Trek total derail your search for a steel CX bike. If you were really interested in getting a steel bike instead of waving some personal war against Trek, you would simply go to a Trek LBS and give the Lane a good long test ride and decide if it's a bike that you might want or not. I would challenge you to go test ride this bike and get back to us with your honest opinion.
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    Those pics sure look like a much higher quality bike than a Walmart bike. Maybe I should give up on my idea of selling my craptacular aluminum Specialied and going Walmart.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    BD has a high end steel (maybe 725) lugged frame bike that might interest you. On the other hand, it's not matte black and it has these motobecane decals on it, so it might not be all that appealing.
    I personally like BD and take no offense to decals!

    What's wrong with decals?

    Actually, to tell you the honest to god truth, if I saw a chromoly steel bike that was well-constructed with crappy components, that had "Walmart" stamped all over it, I'd take it in a heartbeat! That's what I think about labels.

    I feel the same way when I hear people use derogatory words with regards to people as, well. I'm over labels! I hate labels! ...But not when it comes to merchandise! They're needed when merchants are attempting to sell their products. Therefore, MERCHANTS...TREK...Please properly label your merchandise! Especially on your websites!

    - Slim

  16. #41
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    [QUOTE=cyccommute;13395261]You are tilting at windmills again, Slim.

    You are basing your arguments on information that I would call dodgy at best.
    Consider your source...a know nothing phone rep at Trek.
    I wasn't talking to just a "phone rep", I was talking to customer service people at Trek. I was talking to salesmen who worked at Trek dealerships. These are all people you would ordinarily expect to know about their commodities, the actual goods that they're trying to peddle. If you're a salesman, and I ask you a very basic question like, "What's in that basket, you're selling?" and that prompts you to tell me, "Just a moment, Ill be right back", that tells me that you don't know your product. However, that might not necessarily be your fault. Why don't you know your product? ...Maybe it's for the same reason that the content of the product is not posted on your website...Maybe it's for the same reason that you're trying to camouflage your goods by using the word "platinum" to describe some type of steel you're attempting to sell.


    All steel has a high tensile strength so they could all be called 'hi
    ten' steel. Some have a slightly higher tensile strength than others so
    they can be used in smaller quantities and still provide enough strength to be
    useable. A frame that is uses carbon steel...the stuff that was called 'hi
    ten' steel back in the day...probably isn't going to be drawn into
    "Custom-butted Platinum series steel". Pigs ear/silk purse. Most
    likely, the steel used for the Trek Lane is a 4100 series steel with from 0.5%
    to 0.9% chromium and 0.12% to 0.3% molybdenum in it.
    Most people in any industry that deal with steel, all know the difference between hi-tensile steel and chromoly steel. Hi-tensile steel does not not have chromium and molybdenum added to it whereas chromoly steel does. Now we could get extremely technical and measure the tensile strength of all grades of steel and say, "Hey look! The tensile value for that grade is above x, therefore it qualifies as Hi-Tensile". Nope! That's not acceptable, Cyccommute! That's just not how the interpretation goes...


    Helmart bikes are what they are...plain and simple. You can put all kinds of
    lipstick on them but they are still going to be pigs. They might be purty pigs
    but they are still going to be pigs.
    Walmart bikes differ from whatever other bikes you're referring to, primarily because of cheap and poorly installed components. Their frames are comparable to many other frames made by the big five bicycle manufacturers. Once again, it's their components that suck! Of course, there are many frames built by the big five, that Walmart bike frames could never aspire to reach in quality. I mean, Walmart just isn't a top-of-line kinda place.

    The Lane, and other steel bikes at it's level including the Randonee, LHT, Soma,
    etc, are a much higher quality bike. I, personally won't go out and buy any of
    the above given my meh? attitude towards steel, but you could buy the Lane and
    ride it with the confidence that it's a good bike at a pretty good price. It's
    not a rip-off or a scam. You're just reading too much into it
    .

    The Lane is a bicycle that has a hi-tensile steel frame. It is therefore, not favorably endowed with the technological properties that advances the cycling world of steel, today. It therefore, should not be placed in the same category with Randonee, Soma, and most certainly not the Surly LHT...OMG! I almost choked on that one!

    I'm not reading too much into the subject matter! ..There are red flags waving all over this Trek Lane thing. There's just too many weird things going on. Sales people not knowing what it's made of...Sales people not knowing where to find the info...Customer Service people not knowing for certain...Websites not clearly indicating what type of steel is really being used...Website camouflaging the actual identity of the steel frame. Many many many things smell of fish, here.

    - Slim
    Last edited by SlimRider; 10-21-11 at 08:50 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
    Those pics sure look like a much higher quality bike than a Walmart bike. Maybe I should give up on my idea of selling my craptacular aluminum Specialied and going Walmart.
    Jimi77, I think you're very funny!

    - Slim

  18. #43
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    MechBgon says:

    I hate to break it to you, but there's a ton of quality-brand bikes out there
    with at least some high-tensile steel tubing. It's simply silly to say "oh,
    well if it's made of HT steel then it must be Walmart quality." Having built
    several Lanes, I know that's an out-and-out falsehood. They're made as well as
    any of Trek's other production bikes.
    Well, I don't know where you've been. However, I thought we had moved beyond using HT steel as a bicycle frame for the most part. I mean, what cyclist calls up his LBS and ask, "Hey! you got any in HT steel?" I mean, that steel usually ends up being used in bicycle frames, for people who are economically challenged. Often, the people that you find at Walmart fit this description. Don't get me wrong! There's nothing wrong with a HT steel framed bicycle. However, in this day and age why not use the best technology available to us in steel that's marketable? Why not use chromoly steel? Who benefits from the use of HT steel?

    HT steel, these days is commonly found on the lowest end of bicycle frames at the cheapest of prices. Why on earth should anybody not be alarmed at the fact that Trek is now producing them at highly inflated prices? Just because they come with nicer welds and slightly more attention given to detail, does not drastically change what they are. I mean, I could dress a wolf up, to look like a lamb, too!


    And neither of the competitors has the expensive STI shifters as a result. Hi-ten steel isn't as strong? Correct! That's why they use more of it

    STI shifters are not deal breakers. Besides, they could be just as easily placed on a decent chromoly frame, as they could the Lane. We don't need a beefier HT steel bicycle in CX, we need state-of-the-art chromoly steel frames, that are reliable, durable, strong, and light. It doesn't have to be weight-weenie-light, but light enough to highlight and celebrate the advances in steel.

    As for the Platinum moniker... well, this DOES come from a company that likes to call their Madone frame a "fuselage" just to make themselves sound important
    To tell you the truth MechBgon, this is what really ticks me off. Not only do they not make it widely known even within their own circles, just what this Lane frame is composed of, they have the unmitigated audacity to try to dress it up in the camouflage of the little word, "platinum". Don't give me spam and tell me it's ham! That's a blatant insult to the average consumer's intelligence! Just simply tell me that it's HT steel, but perhaps there's something special about this particular grade of HT steel and be specific. Don't go playing the pyschological word association game with me! Besides, we all know that there's nothing so special about HT steel, its just HT steel! It's perhaps, better than other bicycle frame material, but it's not as good as chromoly!

    - Slim

    PS.

    Love those pics!
    Last edited by SlimRider; 10-22-11 at 08:06 AM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by knobd View Post
    Slim, once again back to my original point. You are letting some uknowledgeable noob PR person or two at Trek total derail your search for a steel CX bike. If you were really interested in getting a steel bike instead of waving some personal war against Trek, you would simply go to a Trek LBS and give the Lane a good long test ride and decide if it's a bike that you might want or not. I would challenge you to go test ride this bike and get back to us with your honest opinion.
    Hi there Knobd!

    Yes! After MechBgon's pics, I feel moved to at least give it another shot. However, I still feel as though something shady is going on. I mean, if I had simply called the Trek dealership and casually talked to an informed sales person, I wouldn't have composed this post. Why couldn't the sales person simply say, "That's our CX Lane model and it's frame is made exclusively from our platinum series Hi-Tensile steel"?

    - That would have ended this!

    - Slim

    PS.

    I'll ride it tomorrow morning...
    Last edited by SlimRider; 10-21-11 at 07:04 PM.

  20. #45
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Question mark...?...indication of an interrogatory. Nightshade thinks aluminum isn't real.
    I don't wanna open that can of worms again so I won't respond and you can please stop now.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
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    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Before Carbon, AlAn, cross frames were what you saw
    ridden by all the top pro's on the Podium.
    I know, Fietsbob.

    Thank you.

    - Slim

  22. #47
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    Hey there MechBgon!

    Thanks for the fantastic mind-altering pics. They're great!

    - Slim

    PS.

    I really do want to feel differently about Trek! I really do!

  23. #48
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Platinum Steel = classist
    Alpha White/Alpha Black Aluminum = racist.

    Tsk, Tsk Trek.

    But hey, if it really is HiTen, at least it's butted Hi-Ten!

    I reckon the price ain't so bad. LHT completes are around $1200. Trek offers some stuff, where as LHT offers other.

    Trek drops the RD spec a bit but gives you sliding dropouts.
    Trek raises the shifter spec a bit but gives you cheaper steel.
    Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 10-21-11 at 06:40 PM.
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  24. #49
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    I wasn't talking to just a "phone rep", I was talking to customer service people at Trek. I was talking to salesmen who worked at Trek dealerships. These are all people you would ordinarily expect to know about their commodities, the actual goods that they're trying to peddle. If you're a salesman, and I ask you a very basic question like, "What's in that basket, you're selling?" and that prompts you to tell me, "Just a moment, Ill be right back", that tells me that you don't know your product. However, that might not necessarily be your fault. Why don't you know your product? ...Maybe it's for the same reason that the content of the product is not posted on your website...Maybe it's for the same reason that you're trying to camouflage your goods by using the word "platinum" to describe some type of steel you're attempting to sell.
    A "customer service" person at Trek is just a phone rep(resentative). They aren't engineers, they aren't product specification experts. They are someone who answers the phone. Yes, if the person had to say "just a minute", they don't know what they are talking about but that's pretty normal for the person who answers the phones.

    Trek may have made arrangements with a supplier for a proprietary steel blend and don't want their competitors to know what in the steel. Specialized does it with "M4" aluminum (a version of 7000 series aluminum), True Temper does it with their Platinum OS steel, and almost all carbon frame manufacturers keep their methods of construction and materials of construction under tight control. There's lots of other examples. Just because they won't tell you the secrets or use a term that doesn't sit well with you, doesn't mean that it's what a phone rep...yes, a phone rep...is the truth or that the person even knows what they are talking about.



    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    When people in any industry that deal with steel, they all know the difference between hi-tensile steel and chromoly steel. Hi-tensile steel does not not have chromium and molybdenum added to it whereas chromoly steel does. Now we could get extremely technical and measure the tensile strength of all grades of steel and say, "Hey look! The tensile value for that grade is above x, therefore it qualifies as Hi-Tensile". Nope! That's not acceptable, Cyccommute! That's just not how the interpretation goes...
    No. "Hi tensile" steel is as much of a marketing name as "chromoly" or "Custom Drawn Platinum Series Steel". "Hi tensile" steel could be pretty any thing, as could "Platinum series steel". Without knowing the grade, you know nothing about the steel. Again, just because a phone rep says that it's 'hi tensile steel' doesn't mean that the frame is made of 1090 carbon steel. You don't 'custom butt' 1090 carbon steel. You probably don't even make that stuff in seamless tubing.

    Look at pictures of the product that mechBgon posted. That bike isn't made of cheap tubing. You don't spend that kind of time on welding on cheap carbon tubing.


    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    Walmart bikes differ from whatever other bikes you're referring to, primarily because of cheap and poorly installed components. Their frames are comparable to many other frames made by the big five bicycle manufacturers. Once again, it's their components that suck! Of course, there are many frames built by the big five, that Walmart bike frames could never aspire to reach in quality. I mean, Walmart just isn't a top-of-line kinda place.
    No, again. Hellmart bikes differ from a $1000 high end frame in the components and the frame materials. Both suck. Dropouts are stamped, not forged. Fork tips can be pinched rather than brazed or welded. Welds are sloppy. Go to your local Helmart (I don't darken their door) and look for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    The Lane is a bicycle that has a hi-tensile steel frame. It is therefore, not favorably endowed with the technological properties that advances the cycling world of steel, today. It therefore, should not be placed in the same category with Randonee, Soma, and most certainly not the Surly LHT...OMG! I almost choked on that one!
    Based on what a know nothing phone rep told you? Seeing mechBgon's pictures, it looks like as good a quality bike...and is probably made at the same factory...as the other bikes I listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
    I'm reading too much into the subject matter. There are red flags waving all over this Trek Lane thing. There's just too many weird things going on. Sales people not knowing what it's made of...Sales people not knowing where to find the info...Customer Service people not knowing for certain...Websites not clearly indicating what type of steel is really being used...Website camouflaging the actual identity of the steel frame. Many many many things smell of fish, here.

    - Slim
    Freudian slip? Yes, you are reading too much into this. Call any other company and ask the person who answers the phone a technical question about frames and frame material. I'll bet you get about the same level of information from them. Call Specialized and ask them what the composition of their M4 aluminum. I'll bet you get very similar answers.
    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

  25. #50
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    I don't wanna open that can of worms again so I won't respond and you can please stop now.
    ...and yet...Ppppsssssffftttt!
    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

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