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Old 10-30-11, 03:37 PM   #51
SlimRider
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Alright Cyccomute Here's the Deal

You're referring to a road as gravel, that I would commonly refer to as dirt. However, it really doesn't matter, because both would be more efficiently traversed with a hybrid bicycle, due to the wider tires that will have more than enough width to roll over the gravel aggregates, but the tires will be thin enough to add less rolling resistance, between the road and the tires. This translates into greater speed and efficiency.



This is a gravel road (washboards included) that's quite amenable to hybrid or cyclocross cycling.


This is a rocky road with larger aggregates that would be more amenable to a MTB.
Mountain bikes are better suited to more challenging and diverse terrains. Such as in the example shown above. They were initially designed to decrease the shock of encountering the mountainous obstacles, that one routinely encounters when traversing mountain terrain.

Whenever human beings decide that they must make an improvement in function over whatever it is that is already being utilized, they usually do it out of need. The need to travel mountainous terrain, without all the bumping up and down movement, and erratic vibrations, surely preceeded the desire or need to have "greater control" of the bicycle. Control was the secondary benefit of the added suspension system to the bicycle, not the reverse.

http://products.howstuffworks.com/fu...ying-guide.htm

Of course, a MTB will traverse the loose gravel more efficiently, but the OP doesn't want to travel the over whelming majority of his route inefficiently with lower gearing and fatter tires, where speed is sacrificed, and the entertainment factor is severely reduced. Once again, MTN bikes are better served where such obstacles as roots, rocks, boulders, crevices, and drops are encountered.

The simple compacted and smooth country road is the perfect domain for the hybrid. Quite frankly, that's where the hybrid best demonstrates its purpose. Wherever the hybrid is traversing the average dirt or gravel road, it is perfectly at home.

Can MTN bikes traverse the same types of roads?...You'll just bet they can. However, after the loose spots and washboards, they'll do it less efficiently.

MTB effeciency is best demonstrated on mountainous terrain, not on the smooth or compacted country road.

The MTB has made many improvements since the inception of MTN biking back in the late 1800's. The added suspension system is what really separates MTN bikes from the hybrid. This added suspension system has added weight, as well. The added weight increases the inertia of the bicycle. Inertia is a mass dependent entity, that is independent of vehicle's suspension system. The inertial effect of adding more mass will indeed aid in straight-line motion, but will otherwise hamper any change in straight-line motion, that's the just the fundamental concept of inertia.

Now on to the dog chase...

Cyccomute, I fear you've been watching too much of Ceasar Millan. While what you've stated here appears to be factual. I can personally attest to where your method would have failed miserably. Also, with stray dogs, its impossible to predict the outcome with confronting them. They could have rabies or distemper. In that case, they will be subject to any type of behavior whatsoever. However, with face-spray, it doesn't matter what their temperament may be or what their intentions may or may not be, all chasers get the same treatment once they've gotten within range. That teaches them not only to not chase you again, but quite possibly, it could avoid the next cyclist from being attacked, as well. They will learn to associate humans on bicycles, with eye and nose irritant.

- Slim

PS.

Once while riding with my club many years ago. A pack of dogs began chasing us. We all thought that was weird because usually dogs don't attack groups of people. Anyway, we were all quite fast and manage to outrun them all, except for this one relentless dog. He must have followed us for a couple miles. We became curious as to just what this dog would do to all of us, if we just all slowed downed. The theory was... That if we slowed down, the dog would slow down, too!....WRONG!

As soon as he caught up to the last bike, he latched on to the rear wheel with the tenacity of a pitbull, over-turning one of our roadies. The dog refused to let the wheel go. We began to hit the dog with our air pumps. He finally released the tire and ran away!
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Last edited by SlimRider; 10-31-11 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 10-31-11, 12:52 AM   #52
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Hey there WestTx28!

I'll have to aoplogize for distracting from the focus of your quest for information, I just got caught up with the exchange.

Hey! Also, I just wanted to tell you that there's another really great bike company out there called, "Surly". They make excellent 4130 chromoly steel bikes and are known for their craftsmanship worldwide. They are particularly known for manufacturing one of the world's most popular touring bicycles, called the Surly Long Haul Trucker (LHT).

Anyway, Surly manufactures a 29'er Hybrid called the Ogre:


The Ogre

Surly also manufactures a 26'er Hybrid too, called the Troll:


The Troll


These both come with good Deore componentry.

Surly manufactures a Road/Cyclocross bicycle called, the CrossCheck:


The CrossCheck (comes in black too)

The CrossCheck comes with Sora and Deore components, just like the Vaya 3

You just might wanna check these out sometime soon!

- Slim

PS.

Checkout the Surly Website Below:

www.surlybikes.com
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Old 10-31-11, 11:41 AM   #53
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OP? what brands are carried by the nearest bike shop to where you live?

Here there is a Trek shop.. Navigator is their 26" wheel casual, not racy posture bike.

the 2.0 adds triple chainrings sus fork and seatpost, 1.0 is single chainring, and simpler.

go talk to the folks at your LBS, they will be there to help you after the sale.
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Old 10-31-11, 12:49 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
You're referring to a road as gravel, that I would commonly refer to as dirt. However, it really doesn't matter, because both would be more efficiently traversed with a hybrid bicycle, due to the wider tires that will have more than enough width to roll over the gravel aggregates, but the tires will be thin enough to add less rolling resistance, between the road and the tires. This translates into greater speed and efficiency.



This is a gravel road (washboards included) that's quite amenable to hybrid or cyclocross cycling.

This is a rocky road with larger aggregates that would be more amenable to a MTB.
The gravel road in your picture is actually much worse than the gravel road in my picture. It illustrates, nearly perfectly, what the problem with riding that kind of road on a thin tired bicycle (<1.75") would be. You can easily see in the picture that there are deep ruts in loose material. The ruts are also very discontinuous. A bike with road tires would catch those ruts as they tried to traverse them and the wheel would be thrown off track. You would have to constantly adjust to keep the bicycle traveling down the road straight. The wheels would also dig into it and slow a thin tired bike down. Momentum in loose conditions is your friend. Any appreciable distance on either of your roads or mine would eventually result in walking a thin tired road bike or moving so slowly as to be frustrating.

A mountain bike tire (with front suspension) would ride over the loose stuff and not bog down as much. You might be able to move faster on hardpack but if the road looks anything like all three pictures, the hardpack sections aren't all the common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
Mountain bikes are better suited to more challenging and diverse terrains. Such as in the example shown above. They were initially designed to decrease the shock of encountering the mountainous obstacles, that one routinely encounters when traversing mountain terrain.
Yes. Mountain bike are better suited to challenging and diverse terrains...like gravel roads shown in your two pictures and mine. You don't have to have mountains to ride a mountain bike. Although the term 'all terrain bicycles' never really stuck, it's a very apt description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
Whenever human beings decide that they must make an improvement in function over whatever it is that is already being utilized, they usually do it out of need. The need to travel mountainous terrain, without all the bumping up and down movement, and erratic vibrations, surely preceeded the desire or need to have "greater control" of the bicycle. Control was the secondary benefit of the added suspension system to the bicycle, not the reverse.
Control may have been a happy coincidence of suspension on bicycles but that doesn't mean that the primary benefit from suspensions on bicycles isn't control. Comfort, especially on the higher end of the mountain bike scale, is secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
Of course, a MTB will traverse the loose gravel more efficiently, but the OP doesn't want to travel the over whelming majority of his route inefficiently with lower gearing and fatter tires, where speed is sacrificed, and the entertainment factor is severely reduced. Once again, MTN bikes are better served where such obstacles as roots, rocks, boulders, crevices, and drops are encountered.
Gearing isn't the problem. You can change gearing. Riding a thin tired bicycle on a road like your first picture would be much slower and far less 'entertaining' if you are being thrown off course every few feet. It's even less 'entertaining' if you have to walk long stretches because you can't keep your bike rolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
Can MTN bikes traverse the same types of roads?...You'll just bet they can. However, after the loose spots and washboards, they'll do it less efficiently.

MTB effeciency is best demonstrated on mountainous terrain, not on the smooth or compacted country road.
They'll do it efficiently enough. But is efficiency WestTx28's goal? Efficiency means doing doing the same task with less energy. If he wanted efficiency, he could stick with a wind trainer. If you want to build strength and endurance, decrease the efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
The MTB has made many improvements since the inception of MTN biking back in the late 1800's. The added suspension system is what really separates MTN bikes from the hybrid. This added suspension system has added weight, as well. The added weight increases the inertia of the bicycle. Inertia is a mass dependent entity, that is independent of vehicle's suspension system. The inertial effect of adding more mass will indeed aid in straight-line motion, but will otherwise hamper any change in straight-line motion, that's the just the fundamental concept of inertia.
1800's How old do you think mountain biking is?

I also suggest you look at mountain bike weights vs hybrid weight (or even cyclocross weight). Mountain bikes...even full suspension models...don't weigh that much more than hybrids. Many weigh less than hybrids and that's without having to go to carbon fiber.

You seem to be under the mistaken idea that mountain bikes are just good in a straight line. Nothing could be further from the truth. A mountain bike that would only go downhill...or uphill...in a straight line would be a disaster. Maneuvering around obstacles and on trails is something you have to do on a mountain bike if for nothing else but self-preservation. They do a damned fine job on flat smooth surfaces - like roads - too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
Cyccomute, I fear you've been watching too much of Ceasar Millan. While what you've stated here appears to be factual. I can personally attest to where your method would have failed miserably. Also, with stray dogs, its impossible to predict the outcome with confronting them. They could have rabies or distemper. In that case, they will be subject to any type of behavior whatsoever. However, with face-spray, it doesn't matter what their temperament may be or what their intentions may or may not be, all chasers get the same treatment once they've gotten within range. That teaches them not only to not chase you again, but quite possibly, it could avoid the next cyclist from being attacked, as well. They will learn to associate humans on bicycles, with eye and nose irritant.

- Slim

PS.

Once while riding with my club many years ago. A pack of dogs began chasing us. We all thought that was weird because usually dogs don't attack groups of people. Anyway, we were all quite fast and manage to outrun them all, except for this one relentless dog. He must have followed us for a couple miles. We became curious as to just what this dog would do to all of us, if we just all slowed downed. The theory was... That if we slowed down, the dog would slow down, too!....WRONG!

As soon as he caught up to the last bike, he latched on to the rear wheel with the tenacity of a pitbull, over-turning one of our roadies. The dog refused to let the wheel go. We began to hit the dog with our air pumps. He finally released the tire and ran away!
I have no idea who Cesar Millan is. The way I deal with dogs comes from 30+ years of riding experience and not a little observation of their behavior. Trying to run away from a dog on a bicycle is a fools errand. With the possible exception of some smaller foo-foo dogs, dogs can run at incredible speeds. We had a German Shepard who regularly ran with my bother on his motorcycle at 30 mph.

Your story illustrates the foolishness of not stopping to deal with dogs. You say that the dog crashed one of the people on your ride. Think about it for a second. You've got a dog that is attacking you, where do you want to be? Under a tangle of bicycle and rider trying to get to your feet or already on your feet facing the dog?
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Old 10-31-11, 03:39 PM   #55
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OP? what brands are carried by the nearest bike shop to where you live?

Specialized, TREK, Salsa, Ridley, and Cannondale

As far as the dog thing goes I didn't mean to start anything. On foot you obviously have no choice but to stop and throw your hands up and yell stop. I just didn't know if there is a different protocol on a bike. The biggest concern is running across a feral dog out in the middle of nowhere. Out here we do have coyotes however I have always found them to be pretty scared of humans.

Back to bikes I'm waiting another week or two to let my stress fracture heal up so I can get on something. BTW there is a thread in the cyclocros forum that mentions this:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...2_10000_203165

The general consensus is that the components are really good for that bike. For the price it seems like a bargain to me. If I find I don't like the style or ride I've made much more expensive mistakes in my life.
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Old 10-31-11, 03:52 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by WestTx28 View Post
Specialized, TREK, Salsa, Ridley, and Cannondale

As far as the dog thing goes I didn't mean to start anything. On foot you obviously have no choice but to stop and throw your hands up and yell stop. I just didn't know if there is a different protocol on a bike. The biggest concern is running across a feral dog out in the middle of nowhere. Out here we do have coyotes however I have always found them to be pretty scared of humans.

Back to bikes I'm waiting another week or two to let my stress fracture heal up so I can get on something. BTW there is a thread in the cyclocros forum that mentions this:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...2_10000_203165

The general consensus is that the components are really good for that bike. For the price it seems like a bargain to me. If I find I don't like the style or ride I've made much more expensive mistakes in my life.
Hey there WestTx28!

Yeah, if you know your size, I'd say jump right on that immediately, before they change the price. Of course, be forewarned, you are going to have to get wider tires, once you've taken possession, but that's it!

Good Luck!

- Slim
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Old 10-31-11, 05:52 PM   #57
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Cyccommute says:

Quote:
The gravel road in your picture is actually much worse than the gravel road in
my picture. It illustrates, nearly perfectly, what the problem with riding that
kind of road on a thin tired bicycle (<1.75") would be. You can easily see
in the picture that there are deep ruts in loose material. The ruts are also
very discontinuous. A bike with road tires would catch those ruts as they tried
to traverse them and the wheel would be thrown off track. You would have to
constantly adjust to keep the bicycle traveling down the road straight. The
wheels would also dig into it and slow a thin tired bike down. Momentum in loose
conditions is your friend. Any appreciable distance on either of your roads or
mine would eventually result in walking a thin tired road bike or moving so
slowly as to be frustrating. A mountain bike tire (with front suspension)
would ride over the loose stuff and not bog down as much. You might be
able to move faster on hardpack but if the road looks anything like all three
pictures, the hardpack sections aren't all the common.
The fundamental difference between a MTB and a hybrid is the width of the tire, when traversing either your "dirt" road or my gravel road. Back in the day, we use to ride over just that type of gravel pictured above, with very little difficulty and we had 28 and 32 mm width tires. A MTB with wider tires and a suspension would traverse the loose spots more easily. However, neither will experience any difficulty.

Quote:
Control may have been a happy coincidence of suspension on bicycles but that
doesn't mean that the primary benefit from suspensions on bicycles isn't
control. Comfort, especially on the higher end of the mountain bike scale, is
secondary.
Yes. Well as long as you now understand the fact that control was not the initial primary concern of early MTB design, I'm satisfied. Again, comfort was foremost on the minds of pioneering MTB designers.



Quote:
They'll do it efficiently enough. But is efficiency WestTx28's goal?
Efficiency means doing doing the same task with less energy. If he wanted
efficiency, he could stick with a wind trainer. If you want to build strength
and endurance, decrease the efficiency.
If most of his route is smooth, flat, and compacted gravel, unfortunately the OP will have to be physically overtaxed, when riding a MTB, due to its sluggish reaction to the amount of work the OP has to exert in order to move a more massive bike.

Quote:
1800's How old do you think mountain biking is?
Yes, Cyccomute! Rolled eyes or not, the first of road XC mountain bike cycling ever recorded here within the U.S. was performed by African-Americans called, the Buffalo Soldiers of the 25th regiment of the U.S Infantry. It was performed as an experiment when considering the option of taking the enemy by surprise on bicycle, as opposed to approaching the enemy with the clunking hoofs of the Calvary's galloping horses. This took place in 1896. These Buffalo Soldiers traveled all the way from Missoula, Montana, to St. Louis, Missouri, a total distance of about 1900 miles.

Furthermore, mountain biking is deeply rooted in Cyclocross biking that took place in Europe, and more specifically in France, as country roads, and mountain trails were raced upon, beginning in the early 1900's.
The first European National Cyclocross Championship was held in Belgium, in 1910. Most of western Europe was involved in Cyclocross racing long before the UCI was officially organized, sometime back in the 1940's.

America didn't catch on to MTN biking until the late 70's after a bunch of hippies began rolling their ballooned tired cruisers and fat tired road bikes on Mt. Tamalpais of Marin County, here in California. Hippy-types, like Tom Ritchey, Gary Fisher, and Charles Kelly, were all up in the mountains partying, and rolling down the mountain sides for the extra added excitement. Ritchey was obcessed with bicycle frame-making. He was pretty good at it and everyone rallied around his mammoth frame-building skills. The first mass-produced MTB was until 1981 with the Stumpjumper, manufactured by Specialized.

Quote:
I also suggest you look at mountain bike weights vs hybrid weight (or even cyclocross weight). Mountain bikes...even full suspension models...don't weigh that much more than hybrids. Many weigh less than hybrids and that's without having to go to carbon fiber.
Yes Cyccomute, I have already! The average weight difference between Hardtails and hybrids is just about 4-5 lbs. The average weight difference between full suspensioned bikes and hybrids is between 6-7 lbs. That's quite a bit!


Quote:
You seem to be under the mistaken idea that mountain bikes are just good in a
straight line. Nothing could be further from the truth. A mountain bike that
would only go downhill...or uphill...in a straight line would be a disaster.
Maneuvering around obstacles and on trails is something you have to do on a
mountain bike if for nothing else but self-preservation. They do a damned fine
job on flat smooth surfaces - like roads - too.
No Cyccomute. I'm only saying that any bike that packs more mass does better holding its momentum in a straight line than changing direction. It has nothing to do with MTN bikes in particular, unless you're comparing a massive MTN bike with a bike of much less mass. Admiitedly, suspension systems do aid in the changing of direction when the terrain is more challenging. MTN bikes and hybrids do equally well in changing direction on smooth pavement. It's the straight-away that would hinder a MTB on smooth pavement due to its 26" tires, for the most part. Its accleration is faster, but it's more difficult to maintain higher speeds than the 700's.

Quote:
I have no idea who Cesar Millan is. The way I deal with dogs comes from 30+
years of riding experience and not a little observation of their behavior.
Trying to run away from a dog on a bicycle is a fools errand. With the possible
exception of some smaller foo-foo dogs, dogs can run at incredible speeds. We
had a German Shepard who regularly ran with my bother on his motorcycle at 30
mph.
Yes, for sure! Some dogs are flash-fast!

Quote:
Your story illustrates the foolishness of not stopping to deal with dogs. You
say that the dog crashed one of the people on your ride. Think about it for a
second. You've got a dog that is attacking you, where do you want to be? Under
a tangle of bicycle and rider trying to get to your feet or already on your feet
facing the dog?
It's lessons like that one and many more, that have shaped my resolve for face-spray, to counter dog attacks.

Carry your spray in either your belt or coat pocket. It's always just a reach away! Just wait until they're in range. Get set. Turn quickly and spray! They usually, stop in their tracks, shake their heads, sneeze, and rub eyes to paws. It won't have anything to do with alpha, beta, rabies, herding, or bad tempers. It will be all about, how can I get this crap out of my eyes?...Right Now!!!

- Slim

PS.

Caesar Millan is the Dog Whisperer, Cyccomute!

Last edited by SlimRider; 11-03-11 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 10-31-11, 06:20 PM   #58
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Honestly, a cyclist's "how to handle a dog" argument is similar to a backpacker's "how to handle a bear" argument. Some people play dead and some people say start yelling while waving your hands in the air. It really depends on the animal. Each dog is going to be different and certain circumstances.
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Old 10-31-11, 06:24 PM   #59
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wow....thought I came into a bike forum and an episode of "Days of our Lives" broke out.

btw, since this thread has already wandered so far off topic, I live in bear country and playing dead is never mentioned as a defensive technique.
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Old 10-31-11, 06:37 PM   #60
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wow....thought I came into a bike forum and an episode of "Days of our Lives" broke out.

btw, since this thread has already wandered so far off topic, I live in bear country and playing dead is never mentioned as a defensive technique.
In a strange kind of way, we're still on topic. The OP wanted to us to help him decide whether a hybrid or a MTB was best to suit his needs. We're still in the verbal process of deliberation. Though the OP has most likely decided already, as previously indicated.

I still enjoy the dialogue with this guy, Cyccomute!

- Slim
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Old 10-31-11, 07:01 PM   #61
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I still enjoy the dialogue with this guy, Cyccomute!

- Slim
You both have outstanding writing skills, I'll give you that! Both highly educated I'd guess!
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Old 10-31-11, 08:15 PM   #62
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Daredevil says:

Quote:
wow....thought I came into a bike forum and an episode of "Days of our Lives" broke out.
It sort of mimics "War and Peace", doesn't it?

Quote:
btw, since this thread has already wandered so far off topic, I live in bear country and playing dead is never mentioned as a defensive technique.
It doesn't sound like a viable option to me....

Quote:
You both have outstanding writing skills, I'll give you that! Both highly educated I'd guess!
Hey there buddy! Thanks for the compliment!

- Slim
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