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  1. #1
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Police killed deaf cyclist with stun ***.......

    The use of the stun *** is getting really outta hand..........

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ions-stop.html
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    The use of the stun *** is getting really outta hand..........

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ions-stop.html
    In the correct state: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...sed-by-police/ .

    Brad

  3. #3
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    'More communication' is a watchword for me. It is really sad if this was just because none of the officers thought of using gestures, or waving for him to stop.

    One of those stories that reminds me of how fragile life is.

    When people say 'see you tomorrow' I am always reminded that it is just an assumption.
    mainlytext.com/bike.html Bicycling in winter, the entertainment version

  4. #4
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closed Office View Post
    It is really sad if this was just because none of the officers thought of using gestures, or waving for him to stop..
    Yeah, flashing lights and sirens weren't enough.

  5. #5
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    As I stated in A and S, there's definitely going to be an update in police protocol on Taser usage on cyclists, especially when the city gets the civil court bill.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Yeah, flashing lights and sirens weren't enough.
    This person was deaf. At least when I was stopped by a cop, he came up behind me. I saw his lights flashing in my mirror and had just started to pull over when he hit a blip on his siren. Maybe this cyclist didn't have a rear view mirror.

    I don't know the whole story. Maybe the cyclist did ignore obvious warnings, but from the news accounts that doesn't seem to be stated anywhere.

    Anyway, it was just sort of a speculative worry on my part. I don't know what happened there.
    mainlytext.com/bike.html Bicycling in winter, the entertainment version

  7. #7
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    There's a growing list of people who have died immediately or soon after having a Taser used on them, and I'm not sure how the manufacturer keeps squirming out of liability.

    By their own definition, it is supposed to be "less than lethal", which is a new legal term they were allowed to create out of thin air.
    The justification that I have heard is that since it's not lethal every time, then it's "less-than-lethal", which is odd--considering that not everyone who gets shot dies, yet guns are still always considered to be lethal weapons any time they are used, or even only brandished.

    With any other consumer product, either it is considered a lethal weapon (firearms and other items in some instances) or not. If a police officer shoots and kills someone, their family can't sue the *** company because the *** was supposed to be a lethal weapon. So the liability falls onto the police officer.

    With Tasers though, the manufacturer admits that they're not supposed to kill people (which is the reason so many police departments adopted them in the first place) but when a Taser does seem to kill someone, somehow the Taser isn't at fault, and neither is the cop. "The victim was on drugs." "The victim was fat." "The victim was old." "The victim had heart problems." The observation that the victim didn't die until after being Tasered doesn't seem to matter.


    My feeling is that Tasers should either be classified as lethal weapons, or the manufacturer should be civilly liable for any deaths.
    The ENTIRE REASON that police departments took up using Tasers is that they were claimed to be a safe method to remotely disable someone without killing them, like a firearm would.
    Last edited by Doug5150; 11-26-11 at 02:07 PM.

  8. #8
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Due to the "less than lethal" sales pitch it's way, way to tempting for anybody to taser someone instead of hit (or tap) them with a nightstick.

    Tasers are NOT "less than lethal" in all to many cases so IMO the nightstick is still a cops best friend.

    So I see the weapons order as.........nightstick, taser,***.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
    Why upset a good rant with facts?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Why upset a good rant with facts?
    I know it was bad of me, but I have two friends that work for the coronerís office and they have drummed it into me that we donít know how someone died till they tell us.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
    Falling down without being tased, you could act to protect yourself with your arms / legs. While being hit with a taser, your muscles are incapacitated so you can't even protect your head. So even if it wasn't the direct cause it certainly seems to have contributed.

    Sort of similar to the elderly gent tasered in Wal-Mart during the Black Friday sale. Tasered, then smacked his head on ground.

    ---
    Correction: Wal-Mart guy was leg swept by police, not tasered, so ignore that. Also only 54, so not exactly elderly ... time for me to go to bed
    Last edited by gecho; 11-26-11 at 11:28 PM. Reason: correction

  13. #13
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closed Office View Post
    This person was deaf. At least when I was stopped by a cop, he came up behind me. I saw his lights flashing in my mirror and had just started to pull over when he hit a blip on his siren. Maybe this cyclist didn't have a rear view mirror..
    I don't know the whole story either but it was night, siren and LIGHTS? He had hearing problems, not blind. Either way, sirens, lights nad the cop gets out to shout stop. The guy had to know the cops were there.

    If not, then they should ban earbuds on bikes or there just might be a hundereds more cyclists getting tased.

  14. #14
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    It's not a Taser problem. They do what they are supposed to do.

    It's a problem with the idiots holding them. They pull the trigger more often than they need to.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gecho View Post
    Falling down without being tased, you could act to protect yourself with your arms / legs. While being hit with a taser, your muscles are incapacitated so you can't even protect your head. So even if it wasn't the direct cause it certainly seems to have contributed.

    Sort of similar to the elderly gent tasered in Wal-Mart during the Black Friday sale. Tasered, then smacked his head on ground.

    ---
    Correction: Wal-Mart guy was leg swept by police, not tasered, so ignore that. Also only 54, so not exactly elderly ... time for me to go to bed
    Yes but didn't the article say, 911 call came in about a man falling down in a parking lot. Rode off as if hurt or maybe intoxicated? Then cops come and then he pops something into his mouth and then refused to stop and then he was tazed? Does anyone know if he hurt himself in the first fall or what he may or may not have put in his mouth? Isn't there a rush to judgement here?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  16. #16
    Senior Member xizangstan's Avatar
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    So what was the crime? Even the mayor acknowledges that the guy was no threat to anyone. Shooting anyone balanced on a bicycle, with high voltage seems to me to be a reckless and wanton disregard of life and welfare. Again, what was the old guy's crime? Was there a reasonable suspicion or a probable cause? Of what?

    It seems to me the death penalty is pretty harsh for riding a bike while hearing impaired. They say that driving a motor vehicle is a privilege and not a right. Is riding a bicycle a privilege or a right? Walking?

    I smell a huge lawsuit. And if I were to find myself on the jury, I'm sure I would smack the snot out of the city and the cop.

    (When I was a deputy in a Colorado county sheriff's office, we each had to read every word of the official Standard Operating Procedures, and initial the bottom corner of each page and sign the last page, acknowledging our personal liability if we didn't follow the published SOP.)
    Last edited by xizangstan; 11-27-11 at 01:06 AM.
    Who is John Galt?

  17. #17
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xizangstan View Post
    I smell a huge lawsuit. And if I were to find myself on the jury, I'm sure I would smack the snot out of the city and the cop.
    I have no problem with that. That's the way the system is supposed to work.

    It would be nice, however, to think that the people on the jury would wait to hear both versions of the facts before rushing to judgement.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    I have no problem with that. That's the way the system is supposed to work.

    It would be nice, however, to think that the people on the jury would wait to hear both versions of the facts before rushing to judgement.
    I would not expect any cyclists or LEOs on the jury following voir dire, which is good. There is also the possibility that there will be no criminal or civil trial.

    The ME's report is crucial as cyclists have been known to die several hours following a crash and there are also documented deaths from being tasered. What is done with that info is up to the concerned parties.

    Brad

  19. #19
    Senior Member xizangstan's Avatar
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    I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

    What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

    It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

    In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

    Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.
    Last edited by xizangstan; 11-27-11 at 08:34 AM.
    Who is John Galt?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xizangstan View Post
    I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

    What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone.
    What do you suppose the odds are this is the first encounter the local police have ever had with this individual?

  21. #21
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by xizangstan View Post
    I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

    What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

    It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

    In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

    Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.
    I'm not too sure pepper spray would be any different WRT someone riding a bicycle. There are so many details missing in the news report that will have to be determined by those directly involved to arrive at a fair assesment.

    Brad

  22. #22
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xizangstan View Post
    I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

    What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

    It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

    In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

    Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.

    I don't see why you should be surprised. We read every day about athletes falling down dead after a fall in basketball, and other sports so we know a fall can kill and that sometimes it takes a period of time some others for the person to keel over. Then there are some of our personal experiences with some of our fellow cyclists that ride in some areas of town late in the afternoon and evening. How many have been known to pop just bought drugs in their mouth when confronted by the law? Not saying that is what happened and more than likely this story will fall by the wayside if the man died from any other cause. I am just saying just because the man was tazed doesnít mean that is what killed him. In many states not stopping is called felony fleeing and from your experience what amount of force can be used in the case of a felony?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  23. #23
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Why upset a good rant with facts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    I know it was bad of me, but I have two friends that work for the coroner’s office and they have drummed it into me that we don’t know how someone died till they tell us.
    Ok you thread killers! Does the fact that this dumb ass cop shocked an old man on a bicycle simply because he didn't stop ,but posed no threat to anyone, fall anywhere on YOUR radar??
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  24. #24
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    Ok you thread killers! Does the fact that this dumb ass cop shocked an old man on a bicycle simply because he didn't stop ,but posed no threat to anyone, fall anywhere on YOUR radar??
    So what part of "Get the facts before forming an opinion." excapes you? Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing the policeman of doing - responding before you know for sure what really happened?

  25. #25
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    then the BART cop shot a guy in the back, Murdered him, and got off
    saying 'I thought it was my stun ***'.

    you have to work to turn the country's direction from increasing violence
    as the first reflex of the ' serve and protect' gangs.
    Get out in the streets and at the meetings where the policy is made.

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