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Old 11-25-11, 01:06 PM   #1
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Police killed deaf cyclist with stun gun.......

The use of the stun gun is getting really outta hand..........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ions-stop.html
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Old 11-25-11, 02:03 PM   #2
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The use of the stun gun is getting really outta hand..........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ions-stop.html
In the correct state: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...sed-by-police/ .

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Old 11-25-11, 08:35 PM   #3
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'More communication' is a watchword for me. It is really sad if this was just because none of the officers thought of using gestures, or waving for him to stop.

One of those stories that reminds me of how fragile life is.

When people say 'see you tomorrow' I am always reminded that it is just an assumption.
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Old 11-26-11, 12:07 AM   #4
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It is really sad if this was just because none of the officers thought of using gestures, or waving for him to stop..
Yeah, flashing lights and sirens weren't enough.
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Old 11-26-11, 01:29 AM   #5
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As I stated in A and S, there's definitely going to be an update in police protocol on Taser usage on cyclists, especially when the city gets the civil court bill.
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Old 11-26-11, 11:44 AM   #6
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Yeah, flashing lights and sirens weren't enough.
This person was deaf. At least when I was stopped by a cop, he came up behind me. I saw his lights flashing in my mirror and had just started to pull over when he hit a blip on his siren. Maybe this cyclist didn't have a rear view mirror.

I don't know the whole story. Maybe the cyclist did ignore obvious warnings, but from the news accounts that doesn't seem to be stated anywhere.

Anyway, it was just sort of a speculative worry on my part. I don't know what happened there.
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Old 11-26-11, 02:02 PM   #7
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There's a growing list of people who have died immediately or soon after having a Taser used on them, and I'm not sure how the manufacturer keeps squirming out of liability.

By their own definition, it is supposed to be "less than lethal", which is a new legal term they were allowed to create out of thin air.
The justification that I have heard is that since it's not lethal every time, then it's "less-than-lethal", which is odd--considering that not everyone who gets shot dies, yet guns are still always considered to be lethal weapons any time they are used, or even only brandished.

With any other consumer product, either it is considered a lethal weapon (firearms and other items in some instances) or not. If a police officer shoots and kills someone, their family can't sue the gun company because the gun was supposed to be a lethal weapon. So the liability falls onto the police officer.

With Tasers though, the manufacturer admits that they're not supposed to kill people (which is the reason so many police departments adopted them in the first place) but when a Taser does seem to kill someone, somehow the Taser isn't at fault, and neither is the cop. "The victim was on drugs." "The victim was fat." "The victim was old." "The victim had heart problems." The observation that the victim didn't die until after being Tasered doesn't seem to matter.


My feeling is that Tasers should either be classified as lethal weapons, or the manufacturer should be civilly liable for any deaths.
The ENTIRE REASON that police departments took up using Tasers is that they were claimed to be a safe method to remotely disable someone without killing them, like a firearm would.

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Old 11-26-11, 06:51 PM   #8
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Due to the "less than lethal" sales pitch it's way, way to tempting for anybody to taser someone instead of hit (or tap) them with a nightstick.

Tasers are NOT "less than lethal" in all to many cases so IMO the nightstick is still a cops best friend.

So I see the weapons order as.........nightstick, taser,gun.
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Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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Old 11-26-11, 06:59 PM   #9
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Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
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Old 11-26-11, 07:05 PM   #10
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Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
Why upset a good rant with facts?
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Old 11-26-11, 09:07 PM   #11
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Why upset a good rant with facts?
I know it was bad of me, but I have two friends that work for the coronerís office and they have drummed it into me that we donít know how someone died till they tell us.
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Old 11-26-11, 11:23 PM   #12
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Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
Falling down without being tased, you could act to protect yourself with your arms / legs. While being hit with a taser, your muscles are incapacitated so you can't even protect your head. So even if it wasn't the direct cause it certainly seems to have contributed.

Sort of similar to the elderly gent tasered in Wal-Mart during the Black Friday sale. Tasered, then smacked his head on ground.

---
Correction: Wal-Mart guy was leg swept by police, not tasered, so ignore that. Also only 54, so not exactly elderly ... time for me to go to bed

Last edited by gecho; 11-26-11 at 11:28 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 11-26-11, 11:32 PM   #13
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This person was deaf. At least when I was stopped by a cop, he came up behind me. I saw his lights flashing in my mirror and had just started to pull over when he hit a blip on his siren. Maybe this cyclist didn't have a rear view mirror..
I don't know the whole story either but it was night, siren and LIGHTS? He had hearing problems, not blind. Either way, sirens, lights nad the cop gets out to shout stop. The guy had to know the cops were there.

If not, then they should ban earbuds on bikes or there just might be a hundereds more cyclists getting tased.
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Old 11-26-11, 11:46 PM   #14
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It's not a Taser problem. They do what they are supposed to do.

It's a problem with the idiots holding them. They pull the trigger more often than they need to.
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Old 11-27-11, 12:00 AM   #15
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Falling down without being tased, you could act to protect yourself with your arms / legs. While being hit with a taser, your muscles are incapacitated so you can't even protect your head. So even if it wasn't the direct cause it certainly seems to have contributed.

Sort of similar to the elderly gent tasered in Wal-Mart during the Black Friday sale. Tasered, then smacked his head on ground.

---
Correction: Wal-Mart guy was leg swept by police, not tasered, so ignore that. Also only 54, so not exactly elderly ... time for me to go to bed
Yes but didn't the article say, 911 call came in about a man falling down in a parking lot. Rode off as if hurt or maybe intoxicated? Then cops come and then he pops something into his mouth and then refused to stop and then he was tazed? Does anyone know if he hurt himself in the first fall or what he may or may not have put in his mouth? Isn't there a rush to judgement here?
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Old 11-27-11, 12:55 AM   #16
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So what was the crime? Even the mayor acknowledges that the guy was no threat to anyone. Shooting anyone balanced on a bicycle, with high voltage seems to me to be a reckless and wanton disregard of life and welfare. Again, what was the old guy's crime? Was there a reasonable suspicion or a probable cause? Of what?

It seems to me the death penalty is pretty harsh for riding a bike while hearing impaired. They say that driving a motor vehicle is a privilege and not a right. Is riding a bicycle a privilege or a right? Walking?

I smell a huge lawsuit. And if I were to find myself on the jury, I'm sure I would smack the snot out of the city and the cop.

(When I was a deputy in a Colorado county sheriff's office, we each had to read every word of the official Standard Operating Procedures, and initial the bottom corner of each page and sign the last page, acknowledging our personal liability if we didn't follow the published SOP.)

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Old 11-27-11, 05:49 AM   #17
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I smell a huge lawsuit. And if I were to find myself on the jury, I'm sure I would smack the snot out of the city and the cop.
I have no problem with that. That's the way the system is supposed to work.

It would be nice, however, to think that the people on the jury would wait to hear both versions of the facts before rushing to judgement.
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Old 11-27-11, 08:15 AM   #18
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I have no problem with that. That's the way the system is supposed to work.

It would be nice, however, to think that the people on the jury would wait to hear both versions of the facts before rushing to judgement.
I would not expect any cyclists or LEOs on the jury following voir dire, which is good. There is also the possibility that there will be no criminal or civil trial.

The ME's report is crucial as cyclists have been known to die several hours following a crash and there are also documented deaths from being tasered. What is done with that info is up to the concerned parties.

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Old 11-27-11, 08:28 AM   #19
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I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.

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Old 11-27-11, 09:07 AM   #20
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I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone.
What do you suppose the odds are this is the first encounter the local police have ever had with this individual?
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Old 11-27-11, 09:44 AM   #21
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I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.
I'm not too sure pepper spray would be any different WRT someone riding a bicycle. There are so many details missing in the news report that will have to be determined by those directly involved to arrive at a fair assesment.

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Old 11-27-11, 11:16 AM   #22
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I'm actually surprised so many bicyclists here are so quick to come to the defense of the cop using the taser on the bicyclist. It surprises me, because some of you may not have perfect hearing, and may have had an experience of losing balance on two wheels and crashing.

What kind of idiot would tase a citizen who is precariously balanced on a mechanical device, and is not a threat to anyone?

It seems to me the cop was just indignant over anyone defying his absolute authority. Is that worthy of the death penalty?

In the SOP I signed off on as a deputy, was an acknowledgement of the legal constraints on use of deadly force. And as it's turning out, taser is proving to be deadly to an appreciable number of citizens.

Instead of taser, the officer should have used pepper spray, as that gets the attention of non-compliant persons without endangering their physical safety while balanced in a precarious position on a bicycle.

I don't see why you should be surprised. We read every day about athletes falling down dead after a fall in basketball, and other sports so we know a fall can kill and that sometimes it takes a period of time some others for the person to keel over. Then there are some of our personal experiences with some of our fellow cyclists that ride in some areas of town late in the afternoon and evening. How many have been known to pop just bought drugs in their mouth when confronted by the law? Not saying that is what happened and more than likely this story will fall by the wayside if the man died from any other cause. I am just saying just because the man was tazed doesnít mean that is what killed him. In many states not stopping is called felony fleeing and from your experience what amount of force can be used in the case of a felony?
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Old 11-27-11, 12:58 PM   #23
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Just to be clear do we know the taser killed him? Wasn't he reported as falling down earlier in a 911 call and "seemed" to hurt himself? Until the Autopsy we don't know cause of death.
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I know it was bad of me, but I have two friends that work for the coroner’s office and they have drummed it into me that we don’t know how someone died till they tell us.
Ok you thread killers! Does the fact that this dumb ass cop shocked an old man on a bicycle simply because he didn't stop ,but posed no threat to anyone, fall anywhere on YOUR radar??
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Old 11-27-11, 01:33 PM   #24
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Ok you thread killers! Does the fact that this dumb ass cop shocked an old man on a bicycle simply because he didn't stop ,but posed no threat to anyone, fall anywhere on YOUR radar??
So what part of "Get the facts before forming an opinion." excapes you? Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing the policeman of doing - responding before you know for sure what really happened?
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Old 11-27-11, 01:53 PM   #25
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then the BART cop shot a guy in the back, Murdered him, and got off
saying 'I thought it was my stun gun'.

you have to work to turn the country's direction from increasing violence
as the first reflex of the ' serve and protect' gangs.
Get out in the streets and at the meetings where the policy is made.
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