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Old 12-15-04, 09:41 PM   #1
mark48310
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i MAY have been ripped off and i thought y'all should know about how paypal REALLY works. i won't go into the details of whom i ordered from YET as i'm giving this company one last chance to make good. the owner's a cyclist so i don't want to besmirch his name without justification. for now, i'll just complain about paypal. (but as i emailed him, if this matter isn't resolved, i will gladly post the company's name and all the details of the transaction. their stuff has been discussed quite a few times on this forum...)

i ordered two biking-related dvds from this company and paid with paypal, as that's all they accept. i received only one dvd. i wrote these guys repeatedly and have received no reply. so i went to paypal to file a complaint.

now, here's the dirty little secret of paypal. when you file a complaint via their "resolution" process, you come to a screen that asks you if you received a package. and it says something like "check yes even if the package you received was empty." so i said "yes" because i did get a package, although it was missing half my stuff.

when i hit "submit" i instantaneously go this reply:

As stated in our User Agreement, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only
applies to the shipment of goods and does not apply to disputes about the
attributes or quality of goods received. Therefore, we regret to inform you
that we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a refund.


CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS BULLSH*T? paypal considers this a "quality of goods" issue, when in fact, it may be fraud. i didn't get all of what i paid for and paypal won't even bother to investigate BECAUSE I CHECKED OFF THAT I GOT A PACKAGE.

be careful with paypal folks. i'm not done with this yet, by any measure. just wanted to let you know how these clowns work so you can avoid the hassle.

of course, if this matter is resolved to my satisfaction, in fairness to all parties involved, i will post that.
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Old 12-15-04, 09:48 PM   #2
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did you e-mail e-bay?
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Old 12-15-04, 09:50 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by forum*rider
did you e-mail e-bay?
this wasn't on ebay. it's a company website, but they only take paypal.

anyway, ebay owns paypal. it's the same people either way.

and yeah, i tried to resubmit the claim with paypal and basically got "sorry, this matter has been resolved."

i'm still trying though...
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Old 12-15-04, 09:55 PM   #4
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good luck, i really woudlt use pay pal other thn ebay in my view.
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Old 12-15-04, 09:58 PM   #5
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Thanks for the heads-up. Hope it works out for you
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Old 12-15-04, 10:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark48310
this wasn't on ebay. it's a company website, but they only take paypal.

anyway, ebay owns paypal. it's the same people either way.

and yeah, i tried to resubmit the claim with paypal and basically got "sorry, this matter has been resolved."

i'm still trying though...

oh, oops, sorry. I just assumed it was e-bay.


That sucks, I can't really think of what to do. Maybe some of the older forum members with more experience can help you.

Good luck, keep us updated.
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Old 12-15-04, 10:21 PM   #7
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hmm... I'm not sure what Pay Pal is supposed to do. Requiring Pay Pal to fetch the refund would be like asking your Bank to fetch a refund if you wrote out a check for the same goods (and the guy had already cashed it).

Do they offer some sort of buyer-protection deal?
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Old 12-15-04, 10:23 PM   #8
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You should CALL paypal. They have a number somewhere on that website you have to really search around for.... I mean REALLY do a search for. But once you get a live person, don't hang up and don't let them talk you out of finding the people in charge. Once you get a live person, they really do work to help you resolve your issues. If you go by the FAQ crap on the website, it's programmed to never resolve isuses. Go figure.

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Old 12-15-04, 10:38 PM   #9
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was there a tracking number on the package? If not...say you never even got the package and refile....then they'll have to provide a tracking # w/o the tracking number paypal issues the refund themselves.
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Old 12-15-04, 10:50 PM   #10
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If you paid Paypal with a credit card, don't even mess around with their dispute system - just call your credit card and dispute the charges. Paypal tends to make things right pretty quickly once the credit card companies get involved, since that's their only real source of income...

-chris
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Old 12-15-04, 11:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark48310
CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS BULLSH*T? paypal considers this a "quality of goods" issue, when in fact, it may be fraud. i didn't get all of what i paid for and paypal won't even bother to investigate BECAUSE I CHECKED OFF THAT I GOT A PACKAGE.
Why did you expect PayPal to do anything about it? Your beef is with the seller, not PayPal. If you had paid in dollar bills would you demand cash back from the US Treasury?
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Old 12-16-04, 12:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by bkrownd
Why did you expect PayPal to do anything about it? Your beef is with the seller, not PayPal. If you had paid in dollar bills would you demand cash back from the US Treasury?
read my post. my beef is with paypal because paypal has a policy for resolving complaints when sellers don't deliver but failed to honor that policy. when THEY fail to investigate a fraudulent transaction, they have failed to uphold the terms of the deal made BETWEEN ME AND PAYPAL.

remember this part?

"As stated in our User Agreement, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only
applies to the shipment of goods and does not apply to disputes about the
attributes or quality of goods received."

well, i had a problem with the shipment of goods AS PER PAYPAL'S POLICY. THAT'S why i expect paypal to do something about it.

the US treasury prints money. they provide a medium of exchange. they take no responsibility for transactions, (as paypal claims to) they are in no way involved in transactions between buyers and sellers (as paypal is). your analogy doesn't apply.

and yeah, brokenrobot i did dispute the charge with my credit card. i told the folks at paypal they can have the seller ship me my dvd or refund 1/2 my money, or they can deal with my credit card and end up eating 100% of the cost plus chargeback fees. paypal's choice...

frankly i could give a damn about $23, but it's the principle of the thing...

Last edited by mark48310; 12-16-04 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 12-16-04, 06:04 AM   #13
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Yeah, PayPal's dispute system has some holes in it. But if you pay with cash, check, or money order you have zip also. It's really kind of a crap shoot to buy over the internet. But I do it a lot and have been lucky all but once.

Also, I was listening to a financial advise Q&A on a national radio program the other day and the expert they had on said that disputing a credit card purchase paid through a third party such as PayPal usually won't work. PayPal legitimately collected the funds and forwarded them, so legally they did what they are supposed to do and are entitled to the money. I'm not a lawyer, just what I heard.

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Old 12-16-04, 06:47 AM   #14
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Try Koffee's suggestion first (calling Paypal). If that fails, try brokenrobot's suggestion and dispute the Paypal charge on your credit card. If you didn't pay Paypal by credit card, take this as a cheap lesson about how not to buy something online. Fortunately, all that is at risk is the cost of one DVD.

Always pay with a credit card online. You aren't responsible for fraud and you have a very effective way of disputing payment. (Once , I was booted in a private lot even though I had put money in the box. I used a credit card to pay to have my car unbooted, and then successfully disputed the charge.) Paypal is biased towards sellers. A credit card is a buyer's best friend.

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Old 12-16-04, 11:37 AM   #15
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ordered two biking-related dvds from this company and paid with paypal, as that's all they accept. i received only one dvd. i wrote these guys repeatedly and have received no reply. so i went to paypal to file a complaint.
Ive got bad news for ya. This aint a company its more than likely some guy that runs a online store thats too cheap to get Vera Sign. (vera sign is a company that allows you to make transactions over the enternet.) As a buisness owner myself I would be very weary of any buisness that only deals with pay pal. This usually means that the online store that you have purchased from has no actual store and probably dropships his/her merchandise. Meaning that he/she never actually touches the merchandise. Its not pay pal's fault all they do is fill in the orders its up to you and the other person to make sure everything is alright.
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Old 12-16-04, 11:44 AM   #16
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PAYPAL'S PHONE NUMBER IS......

402.935.2050

I quit dealing with them now that they no longer support older
computer operating systems. I'll be damned if I spend another
penny on computer crap just to surf the web.
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Old 12-16-04, 11:58 AM   #17
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if you paypal is hooked up to your credit card then you can contact the credit company and contact them for a fraud and refund. even though i hate credit cards, having one of those theif warrenties and fraud protection things is good. plus some give you bonus stuff. but anyways, contact your credit card company and tell them what happened. they can track it down and give you a refund
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Old 12-16-04, 12:38 PM   #18
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You could try the Post Office too. They don't like "mail fraud"
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Old 12-16-04, 01:00 PM   #19
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PayPal is useless for resolving disputes. Call the person you ordered from or your credit card company. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would avoid buying from on-line stores that "only take PayPal". IMO, this is highly suspicious.
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Old 12-16-04, 01:13 PM   #20
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Reporting it as fraud is a good idea. You might not get much play if you are the first to complain, but complaints can add up, and somebody has to be first. You should complain to the following law enforcement agencies:
Post Office
Your Attorney General's Office
Seller's Attorney General's Office
Your police department
Seller's police department
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Old 12-16-04, 01:14 PM   #21
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PayPal works for me this way.

I "do not" link it to my personal bank account rather my credit card.

If I have a problem(twice) I dispute the charge via my credit card company and that's the end of it.

There is a $2000 limitation when PayPal is linked to a credit card; however you can cancel the PayPal account and open a new account to get another $2000 limit. I have done this and it works.

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Old 12-16-04, 01:17 PM   #22
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PayPal is useless for resolving disputes. Call the person you ordered from or your credit card company. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would avoid buying from on-line stores that "only take PayPal". IMO, this is highly suspicious.
Over the past 4 years, I've lost about $150.00 dollars from Ebay and Paypal. If you go to the Ebay forums, you'll find out that Paypal has been sued by several states and had to settle. It amazes me how these two entities continue to operate even though tens of MILLIONS in fraud goes unpunished on their website.

Ebay and Paypal are wonderful systems but when fraud is committed, they don't want to know you!
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Old 12-16-04, 02:37 PM   #23
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Paypal is designed to protect sellers, not buyers. It's motto should be "let the buyer beware."

Paypal actually brags to sellers that it "works hard to protect sellers."

Paypal also boasts that it "fights chargebacks to help your business avoid losses." On another page, it claims, "We actively fight chargebacks."

Finally, Paypal explains that "PayPal and the seller work together to dispute a chargeback with the buyer’s credit card company[.]"

It would be very unwise to buy anything through Paypal unless you have to. If you must use Paypal, use a credit card.

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Old 12-16-04, 04:05 PM   #24
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well, a few threats and a complaint to my credit card got paypal to "re-open the investigation."

i hate paypal. i only use it on the rare occasion when there's no other choice. have you noticed how they always rig your account to default options that make it the easiest for them to get away with crap? for example, i had to get "verified" with a bank account cuz i wanted to unload a bunch of junk on ebay and figured this would be easiest way to get payment. so now, anytime i purchase something with paypal, no matter what i do, it tries to take the money from the bank account by default. and when i specify to use a credit card, i get taken to a screen that starts questioning my preference. "are you sure? here's a list of advantages of using your bank account."

yeah right. the only advantage is to paypal because then you have no recourse in the event of fraud.

end of rant. i hope...
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Old 12-16-04, 04:44 PM   #25
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y'all might find this interesting:

http://www.paypalsucks.com/
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