Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-05-12, 12:38 PM   #26
ThermionicScott 
Gratuitous glib and snark
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)
Posts: 14,099
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Whoa! Did anyone else see those goalposts move?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 12:45 PM   #27
SlimRider
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Giant Innova, Nishiki Sebring, Trek 7.5FX
Posts: 5,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Whoa! Did anyone else see those goalposts move?
Scott, if only we could get you into rehab... I'll just bet we could get those goalposts to stop moving on ya!
SlimRider is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 12:52 PM   #28
tagaproject6
Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Campagnolo Record);Cinelli Xperience (SRAM Force);Specialized Allez (SRAM Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Campagnolo Centaur)
Posts: 7,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So what's the real issue?

You don't like how Trek is marketing their "steel" frame and believe that they are misleading the consumer. You feel it your own personal crusade to inform the public that Trek is using "scam tactics". You want Trek to change their ways.

Good luck with that!

tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 12:59 PM   #29
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,696
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
As long as they don't claim there's actual platinum in their "Platinum Series Steel" and then don't put it in, what's the big deal? They're not claiming it's something it's not are they? Is it just that you think it's overpriced? I think most bikes are overpriced, that's why I buy used. But then I'm a cheap tightwad.
himespau is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 01:09 PM   #30
tagaproject6
Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Campagnolo Record);Cinelli Xperience (SRAM Force);Specialized Allez (SRAM Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Campagnolo Centaur)
Posts: 7,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
But then I'm a cheap tightwad.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 01:18 PM   #31
rebel1916
Senior Member
 
rebel1916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 2,992
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
itbl
rebel1916 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 01:18 PM   #32
tagaproject6
Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Campagnolo Record);Cinelli Xperience (SRAM Force);Specialized Allez (SRAM Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Campagnolo Centaur)
Posts: 7,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
itbl
Wut?
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 01:22 PM   #33
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,628
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
then the product cannot be called, chromoly steel. It would then have to be called some other derivation of chromoly steel, without using the term, "chromoly". That's why I've stated here, that they are "chromoly steel like" materials. These are steel materials that have had other elements added in addition to the chromoly standard.
Huh???
njkayaker is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 03:47 PM   #34
ThermionicScott 
Gratuitous glib and snark
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)
Posts: 14,099
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Huh???
Gotta love equivocation. Standard trolling technique.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 05:12 PM   #35
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
Posts: 18,291
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 407 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Plain language translation: "Even though you have clearly proven my error, I'm never going to admit it."
His mind is made up, don't confuse him with the facts. From Trek's website posting on the 2011 Sawyer which uses the Platinum series steel:

Quote:
Frame: Custom-butted Platinum Series chromoly steel,
Now, perhaps, they have two different Platinum Series steels...a cheap version and the expensive double platinum version?... but I kind of doubt it.
__________________
Stuart Black
New! Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
New! Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 06:26 PM   #36
rebel1916
Senior Member
 
rebel1916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 2,992
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
Wut?
Sorry for my clumsy fingers. IBTL
rebel1916 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 08:00 PM   #37
tagaproject6
Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Campagnolo Record);Cinelli Xperience (SRAM Force);Specialized Allez (SRAM Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Campagnolo Centaur)
Posts: 7,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
Sorry for my clumsy fingers. IBTL
I thought it was some new fangled acronym
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 04-05-12, 08:48 PM   #38
SlimRider
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Giant Innova, Nishiki Sebring, Trek 7.5FX
Posts: 5,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
His mind is made up, don't confuse him with the facts. From Trek's website posting on the 2011 Sawyer which uses the Platinum series steel:



Now, perhaps, they have two different Platinum Series steels...a cheap version and the expensive double platinum version?... but I kind of doubt it.
I've already stated as much in post #22....You Copycat, you!
SlimRider is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 05:27 AM   #39
rogerstg
Fred-ish
 
rogerstg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Rhode Island
Bikes:
Posts: 1,800
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
On a similar note, we should discuss misleading colors quoted by manufacturers.

For example, I've seen many bikes described by official sales literature as blue, when in reality they range from aqua to azure to cobalt.

It's outrageous!
People are being screwed daily by bicycle companies!

There are probably all sorts of insignificant things with no practical difference that we can find with which to flog the bike companies.
rogerstg is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 06:35 AM   #40
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
if a thread starts being about each other instead of the topic at hand, it's not an appropriate discussion for this forum.

As far as steels go, if they don't tell you what the composition is you're just speculating anyway. Without significant amount of time in the engineering library, I don't think I would understand much about what the significance of steel composition is anyway. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really matter to me as a framebuilder. I look at butt lengths and decide if I want to bother with a heat treated steel, but other than that, forget it.

Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 07:00 AM   #41
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,628
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.
This.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 07:30 AM   #42
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,696
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post

Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.
Which makes me wonder if it's not really just 4130 that they stuck their own name on it. I mean it appears that sometimes it's called chromoly and sometimes it's not. Maybe it's just 4130 that's polished or something in a proprietary way that they're not allowed to tell anyone so they don't even tell their tech support.
himespau is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 08:33 AM   #43
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,628
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Which makes me wonder if it's not really just 4130 that they stuck their own name on it. I mean it appears that sometimes it's called chromoly and sometimes it's not.
Yes, something like this. The "Platinum Series" thing is just a marketing label meant to give the impression that it's made of name brand tubing. It's Trek's attempt to get in on the current fad for steel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Maybe it's just 4130 that's polished or something in a proprietary way that they're not allowed to tell anyone so they don't even tell their tech support.
Now you are trying too hard!

Last edited by njkayaker; 04-06-12 at 09:55 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 08:38 AM   #44
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Posts: 26,902
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
if a thread starts being about each other instead of the topic at hand, it's not an appropriate discussion for this forum.

As far as steels go, if they don't tell you what the composition is you're just speculating anyway. Without significant amount of time in the engineering library, I don't think I would understand much about what the significance of steel composition is anyway. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really matter to me as a framebuilder. I look at butt lengths and decide if I want to bother with a heat treated steel, but other than that, forget it.
Hence my original point. I think that the original topic is the wrong question.

I don't care what the tubeing is. I want a bike frame that is strong, light and cheap. If you can give me all three I don't care what you call the tubeing. Since it's always necessary to make compromises, I want to know how the bike feels when I ride it. If I like how the bike rides, I still don't care what you call the tubeing.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 08:40 AM   #45
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
Posts: 18,291
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 407 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
I've already stated as much in post #22....You Copycat, you!
So rather then look at this in a logical manner, you're just going to stick with your original (erroneous) premise that Trek is trying to rip you off? Let's look at the Trek line, shall we? The Sawyer ($1540) says, quite clearly, that has a frame that is made of Platinum Series chrome molybdenum steel. It also says that the Lane ($1210) is made of Platinum Series steel. The 520 ($1480) is listed as made of "butted chromoly" but not of Platinum Series. The Belleview ($740) says that it's made of CrMo steel but doesn't list it as 'Platinum Series' steel. The Atwood ($490), the 700 ($380), and the 820 ($370) all are listed as being made simply of "steel".

Now I can see the Sawyer costing more than the Lane or the 520 because there's more work and materials involved in making the frame. But are you really going to argue that Trek is trying to pass off a $1200 bike that is made of the same steel as their bikes that are around $400? The parts on the $400 bikes aren't that bad nor are the parts on the Lane that good to make up an $800 difference in parts. If the Lane were as much of a pig as you think it is, the lipstick on it would have to be of a much higher quality. People who shell out $1200 for a bike aren't that stupid!

On the other hand, if the frame material on the $1200 Lane is the same as the $400 bikes, why isn't Trek ballyhooing those frames as being made of "Platinum Series" steel? They are in the business of selling bicycles and part of selling bicycles, as in selling steaks, is selling the sizzle.

Then there is the usage of terms. The term "Hiten" or "high ten" or "high tensile strength" when applied to steel is mostly meaningless. Those terms were used back in the bike boom era of the late 70's and early 80's as a marketing term to differentiate low strength steels that had been used to construct bicycles from better quality steels that were being used on more expensive bikes. Although Helmart wasn't the force then it is today, Sears, Penney's, Wards, Western Automotive, and a whole host of other places were selling 'bicycles' which were every bit as BSOs as today's BSO offerings from Helmart. What the metallurgy of the steel was...or is...is mostly unknown without some fairly sophisticated materials analysis. However, all of those terms refer to a steel that has a higher tensile strength than weaker steel alloys used for frames of old (and of cheap bikes now). By definition, a iron product that has chromium and molybdenum added to it is a "high tensile strength" steel.

As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.
__________________
Stuart Black
New! Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
New! Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 09:19 AM   #46
SlimRider
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Giant Innova, Nishiki Sebring, Trek 7.5FX
Posts: 5,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
So rather then look at this in a logical manner, you're just going to stick with your original (erroneous) premise that Trek is trying to rip you off? Let's look at the Trek line, shall we? The Sawyer ($1540) says, quite clearly, that has a frame that is made of Platinum Series chrome molybdenum steel. It also says that the Lane ($1210) is made of Platinum Series steel. The 520 ($1480) is listed as made of "butted chromoly" but not of Platinum Series. The Belleview ($740) says that it's made of CrMo steel but doesn't list it as 'Platinum Series' steel. The Atwood ($490), the 700 ($380), and the 820 ($370) all are listed as being made simply of "steel".

Now I can see the Sawyer costing more than the Lane or the 520 because there's more work and materials involved in making the frame. But are you really going to argue that Trek is trying to pass off a $1200 bike that is made of the same steel as their bikes that are around $400? The parts on the $400 bikes aren't that bad nor are the parts on the Lane that good to make up an $800 difference in parts. If the Lane were as much of a pig as you think it is, the lipstick on it would have to be of a much higher quality. People who shell out $1200 for a bike aren't that stupid!

On the other hand, if the frame material on the $1200 Lane is the same as the $400 bikes, why isn't Trek ballyhooing those frames as being made of "Platinum Series" steel? They are in the business of selling bicycles and part of selling bicycles, as in selling steaks, is selling the sizzle.

Then there is the usage of terms. The term "Hiten" or "high ten" or "high tensile strength" when applied to steel is mostly meaningless. Those terms were used back in the bike boom era of the late 70's and early 80's as a marketing term to differentiate low strength steels that had been used to construct bicycles from better quality steels that were being used on more expensive bikes. Although Helmart wasn't the force then it is today, Sears, Penney's, Wards, Western Automotive, and a whole host of other places were selling 'bicycles' which were every bit as BSOs as today's BSO offerings from Helmart. What the metallurgy of the steel was...or is...is mostly unknown without some fairly sophisticated materials analysis. However, all of those terms refer to a steel that has a higher tensile strength than weaker steel alloys used for frames of old (and of cheap bikes now). By definition, a iron product that has chromium and molybdenum added to it is a "high tensile strength" steel.

As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.
Darn Cyccomute,

You must be keeper of all the rainy days and Mondays, that could ever get me down....Gloomy...Gloomy...Everything is gloomy with you.

First of all, your very premise is wrong. If you've been keeping up with the thread, you should have noticed that I myself, have serious doubts about whether Trek is even aware of this ordeal. I've even cast the blame towards possible human error in the form of a typo. I've also indicated that it's quite possible that perhaps the Trek people are just out of the information loop with respect to the Steel Cross Lane.

So therefore, if you've followed the progression of the thread, I've allowed room for other possible explanations and mechanisms for this unfortunate event to take place. Thus, the conspiratorial aspect becomes somewhat less concentrated, yet present nonetheless. Now, we both can agree that it makes more ethical sense to butt chromoly steel than the cheaper hi-tensile type. However, given the potential volume that Trek Lane sales possess, the profit gained from such trickery would indeed be quite sizeable.

Now would Trek risk its name being involved in this level of public deceit? One has to wonder....It just doesn't make sense to me that Trek would go to such an extent to build its reputation, just to destroy it with such inanity. However, once I received the email from the tech-guy, that the Steel Cross Lane was indeed hi-tensile steel, I was absolutely shocked.

Now what am I left to think?....Who am I to refute Trek's own tech guy?...Who are you to defend the Lane's composition and affirm it as anything else, other than hi-tensile steel after both the AlmostGreenGuy and myself have had the Lane confirmed as hi-tensile steel?

I would agree with you and the few others logic, who protest and proclaim that the Lane just couldn't be made of the hi-tensile grade steel. However, the Trek's own email and this post is just too hard to trump! I'm not going to argue with Trek about its own product. That would be just a little to silly! Wouldn't you agree?

Last edited by SlimRider; 04-06-12 at 09:25 AM.
SlimRider is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 10:01 AM   #47
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,628
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
...I've also indicated that it's quite possible that perhaps the Trek people are just out of the information loop with respect to the Steel Cross Lane....

So therefore, if you've followed the progression of the thread, I've allowed room for other possible explanations and mechanisms for this unfortunate event to take place. Thus, the conspiratorial aspect becomes somewhat less concentrated, yet present nonetheless. Now, we both can agree that it makes more ethical sense to butt chromoly steel than the cheaper hi-tensile type. However, given the potential volume that Trek Lane sales possess, the profit gained from such trickery would indeed be quite sizeable.
??? Yet you prefer the loony conspiracy theory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimRider View Post
However, the Trek's own email and this post is just too hard to trump! I'm not going to argue with Trek about its own product. That would be just a little to silly! Wouldn't you agree?
The person who replied just read the same web page you did. No mystery at all.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 10:14 AM   #48
SnowJob
Dirt junkie.
 
SnowJob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Minneapolis
Bikes: Surly Ice Cream Truck, Traitor Ruben, Redline Monocog 29er
Posts: 393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.
SnowJob is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 10:15 AM   #49
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,628
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowJob View Post
^^^
"SnowJob"? Hmmm.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 04-06-12, 10:16 AM   #50
SlimRider
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Giant Innova, Nishiki Sebring, Trek 7.5FX
Posts: 5,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
??? Yet you prefer the loony conspiracy theory!

Business is conspiracy-filled!


The person who replied just read the same web page you did. No mystery at all.
So you're saying the Trek tech-guy read the same webpage that I read? ...Why would a qualified Trek tech-guy need to read the same webpage that I'm reading?...Shouldn't they be trained and and tested for their current up-to-date knowledge concerning the technological facts about each and every model of bicycle?

Shouldn't the right hand of Trek know what the left is doing?

PS.

Don't be so quick to drop the conspiracy ball...

While I don't prefer the conspiracy explanation, I don't eliminate it as a possiblity, either.

Conspiracies do exist! Just ask any CEO or lawyer...

In most cases, the entire marketing department is involved in one big conspiracy!

Last edited by SlimRider; 04-06-12 at 10:25 AM.
SlimRider is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:32 AM.