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  1. #1
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    Difference between 'Dutch' and 'English 3spd' bikes?

    What exactly are the differences or the primary difference? They both have relaxed geometry and rather upright riding position, correct?

    Feel free to point out the modern examples that can be had here in the States today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
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  2. #2
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    I always think of Dutch bikes as being heavy and English bikes as being light. But this is a completely uninformed opinion.

  3. #3
    Crispy Member ahsposo's Avatar
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    The chain guard and the weight and the practical no BS nature of Dutch bikes.

    Not sexy but they are every day bikes.

    Not that I have any real knowledge of the subject at hand. I sorta made that up.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    So the KHS Green would be more like a 'Dutch' bike, while the Felt Cafe 3 would be more like the English 3spd?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    Ride what and in what manner pleases you. Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind. srsly.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member conradpdx's Avatar
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    "Dutch" is a more relaxed riding position with a lower seat position and the handle bars set higher. English 3 speed has a slightly more aggressive position higher seat position, low hand position. Yes we aren't talking much, but it's a difference.

    A Dutch



    An English



    I should note that both bikes pictured above are made by Linus.

    Dutch also usually comes with all accessories fenders, bell, lights. chain guard, skirt guard...etc. English 3 speeds were mostly just bike and fenders and chain guard. Of course there were exceptions (like the Superbe). But on the whole this would apply.



    Of course the obvisous answer is the English bike were made in England, and the Dutch bike made in Dutchlandia.
    Does having had a vasectomy make me a "fixie"?

    1971 Raleigh Superbe, 1959 Murray Vanguard, 1974 Raleigh Super Course Mark II and a garage full of three speeds now in various states of dis/repair.

  6. #6
    Senior Member alhedges's Avatar
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    There are different kinds of English 3 speeds. The Raleigh Tourist is quite similar to a Dutch bike, having a similarly slack seat tube.

    Note: today when people talk about slack seat tubes, they typically mean a seat tube angle of 71-72 degrees (as opposed to the angle of 73-75 typically used in racing bikes). Dutch bikes (and the Tourist) have a seat tube angle of 65-67 degrees...maybe that is "extra slack." I think the weight is about the same (45 -50 lbs). The Dutch bike may have higher handlebars, but I'm not sure.

    The Raleigh Sport has a seat tube angle of 70-72 degrees and weighs 35-40 lbs. I think it's made of cro-moly steel rather than hi-ten; so it's substantially lighter.

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    Different wheel size.
    Dutch has Sachs hub, English has Sturmey Archer
    Dutch bike has a single rear hub brake, English has F/R rod-operated stirrup brakes.
    Dutch have built-in bike stand for leaving outside schpecial coffee schop, English bikes are leant against the tobacconist shop window.
    Dutch rear racks are stronger for carrying svelte and shapely Dutch girlfriend. English bike has rear rack suitable for ferret or fishing kit.

  8. #8
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
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    I want to hear the term "English Racer".

    A friend of mine sold an old English Racer recently... He got $150.00 for it! Probably more than the bike cost when it was new.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  9. #9
    Senior Member mprelaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    I want to hear the term "English Racer".

    A friend of mine sold an old English Racer recently... He got $150.00 for it! Probably more than the bike cost when it was new.
    It was always a 10 speed Raleigh when I was a kid.

  10. #10
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    I know the current crop of "Dutch" bikes, especially the nicer ones are built with galvanized and stainless components as well as being powder coated. The older Raleighs had excellent nickel/chrome plating that always seems to clean up. I think the Raleighs tend to be a bit lighter than their Dutch counterparts. I have owned plenty of Raleighs but have never owned a true Dutch bike, unless you count the Columbia I have that was built by Magneet, but it is a compact.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

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  11. #11
    Senior Member conradpdx's Avatar
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    As Sheldon Brown states:

    In some parts of the U.S. this type of bicycle was known among people who didn't know any better as an "English Racer", although they are a far cry from a racing design. Please don't call these bikes "English Racers!" while they are very nice bicycles, they have no connection whatever with racing; it is foolish and ignorant to refer to them this way
    Does having had a vasectomy make me a "fixie"?

    1971 Raleigh Superbe, 1959 Murray Vanguard, 1974 Raleigh Super Course Mark II and a garage full of three speeds now in various states of dis/repair.

  12. #12
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    For info. everything you could possibly want to know about English 3-speeds.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    For info. everything you could possibly want to know about English 3-speeds.
    Ah, I knew about the one in the Utility forum, but don't think I've ever stuck my head into C&V before. But 115 pages (and growing)? That's gonna take some time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
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  14. #14
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    The quintessential Dutch and English roadsters are nearly identical and in many cases one will find Sturmey Archer hubs on Dutch bicycles just as you do on Raleigh and other Englsh built three speeds as their quality and reliability made them a popular choice with manufacturers all over the world.

    My 1948 Rudge curbed out at 38 pounds but had no generator or light which is usually a standard feature on Dutch bicycles which tend to be heavier because of these mandatory fittings and often curb out at 45-50 pounds.

    One must remember that Holland is flat as a pancake.

    The Raleigh Sports has slightly steeper frame angles and is made from high tensile steel, with no generator lighting or racks they weigh 36 - 38 pounds while the Superbe weighs 42 pounds with a generator and light and stock racks.

    Dutch roadsters continue to be built in the same manner they have been for 100 years and ride on 622/700c wheels while those vintage English roadsters ran on 635 / oversize wheels... Canadian built CCM roadsters also ran on 622/700c wheels.

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    Ah, I knew about the one in the Utility forum, but don't think I've ever stuck my head into C&V before. But 115 pages (and growing)? That's gonna take some time...
    I am quite impressed at the amount of historical and technical information that has been added to this thread.

  16. #16
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    Ah, I knew about the one in the Utility forum, but don't think I've ever stuck my head into C&V before. But 115 pages (and growing)? That's gonna take some time...
    Just for the record...137 pages it was started on 2/22/10 and it still going strong. It does encompass just about everything and anything about the English 3 speeds. There are probably 3 sub groups that fall under the English Three speed moniker: Roadsters, Sports and Clubmen. Roadsters are probably the closest to the old Dutch bikes in terms of size, Sports are the middle weights and the Clubmen were the lightweights. They all used IGH for the most part.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

  17. #17
    Grammar Cop Condorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conradpdx View Post
    "Dutch" is a more relaxed riding position with a lower seat position and the handle bars set higher. English 3 speed has a slightly more aggressive position higher seat position, low hand position. Yes we aren't talking much, but it's a difference.

    A Dutch



    An English



    I should note that both bikes pictured above are made by Linus.

    Dutch also usually comes with all accessories fenders, bell, lights. chain guard, skirt guard...etc. English 3 speeds were mostly just bike and fenders and chain guard. Of course there were exceptions (like the Superbe). But on the whole this would apply.



    Of course the obvious answer is the English bike were made in England, and the Dutch bike made in Dutchlandia.
    You can't fool me! English bikes are made in Britain!!
    That which does not kill me has made a massive tactical blunder.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member conradpdx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    Ah, I knew about the one in the Utility forum, but don't think I've ever stuck my head into C&V before. But 115 pages (and growing)? That's gonna take some time...

    Took me about 3 or 4 days when I first got my Superbe. I highly recommend taking some notes, or bookmarking each page that some of the info you know you'll go back too. I'm glad i did, especially on the tool lists and AW hub fixes/tweeks. I don't think there's a part that isn't discussed in detail there.
    Does having had a vasectomy make me a "fixie"?

    1971 Raleigh Superbe, 1959 Murray Vanguard, 1974 Raleigh Super Course Mark II and a garage full of three speeds now in various states of dis/repair.

  19. #19
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    One being built in England the other being built in the Netherlands (-:

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