GPS for cycling queries
07-02-13, 11:29 AM
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GPS for cycling queries
Hi all. Wasn't sure which forum to post in, so I stuck this in here--hope it's an appropriate spot.
Anyway, the query is about GPS for use in cycling. I should point out that, to begin with, I know that various GPS-enabled devices are made for bicyclists. My searching thus far, though, has led me to believe that these sorts of devices are not really going to serve well my needs. You see, these seem oriented toward those who are training for competition, whether that be triathalons or regular bicycle races. Thus, they seem to focus on tracking speed, miles traveled, and so forth. Those are things I'm not really looking for in a GPS.
What I am looking for is the mapping function. We like to take long rides in the countryside and also do the occasional long-distance tour. Well, as we all know, some segment of a given route you might choose may well be impassible owing to construction, bridge wash-out, or what have you. Or, a route that looked good on the map may turn out to be more heavily trafficked than you'd like. In such instances, you need to establish on-the-fly some alternate route to your destination. It is for these sorts of situations that I'd like to have a GPS to carry along.
I've actually used an automotive GPS while touring and it came in pretty handy in such situations. Well, actually, the particular unit we were using was not so good because its screen was unreadable in direct sunlight. But there do seem to be automotive GPS's whose screens are more legible in direct sunlight, so I'm leaning toward getting one of these. I should mention, btw, that we are tandem riders: so the stoker on our rig can whip out the GPS en-route and offer alternate directions while under way.
To begin my queries, let me first ask whether anyone on the forum has, like us, used an automotive GPS in the way I've described? Let me also ask whether anyone has experience using a cycling GPS that might fulfill my need for establishing on-the-fly detours? I have never used a cycling GPS--only automotive ones--so I could well be wrong in my assessment of their capabilities. I would be grateful for any recommendations.
Finally, as I look around for a suitable GPS, I have become aware that many smartphones can perform GPS functions. Such devices do also tend to be more readable in direct sunlight, which makes a smartphone a possibly suitable option as well. I actually have an older iphone, though I do not have a cellular plan with it and use it mainly for SIP calling and to watch youtube videos. Which brings up the question of how GPS functionality works in smartphones; perhaps someone on these forums can address this matter?
To wit, could I expect a smartphone's GPS functionality to work independently of a cellular provider? Many older smartphones are being sold at reasonable prices--about the same as a decent, used automotive GPS would cost. If such a phone could have a GPS app loaded onto it, say, via wifi, and if it could communicate directly with GPS satellites (rather than using cellular towers), it seems to me it could function just as well as, or perhaps better than, an automotive GPS. Can anyone comment on this plan and/or offer any enlightenment on how GPS functionality works on smartphones?
Anyway, the query is about GPS for use in cycling. I should point out that, to begin with, I know that various GPS-enabled devices are made for bicyclists. My searching thus far, though, has led me to believe that these sorts of devices are not really going to serve well my needs. You see, these seem oriented toward those who are training for competition, whether that be triathalons or regular bicycle races. Thus, they seem to focus on tracking speed, miles traveled, and so forth. Those are things I'm not really looking for in a GPS.
What I am looking for is the mapping function. We like to take long rides in the countryside and also do the occasional long-distance tour. Well, as we all know, some segment of a given route you might choose may well be impassible owing to construction, bridge wash-out, or what have you. Or, a route that looked good on the map may turn out to be more heavily trafficked than you'd like. In such instances, you need to establish on-the-fly some alternate route to your destination. It is for these sorts of situations that I'd like to have a GPS to carry along.
I've actually used an automotive GPS while touring and it came in pretty handy in such situations. Well, actually, the particular unit we were using was not so good because its screen was unreadable in direct sunlight. But there do seem to be automotive GPS's whose screens are more legible in direct sunlight, so I'm leaning toward getting one of these. I should mention, btw, that we are tandem riders: so the stoker on our rig can whip out the GPS en-route and offer alternate directions while under way.
To begin my queries, let me first ask whether anyone on the forum has, like us, used an automotive GPS in the way I've described? Let me also ask whether anyone has experience using a cycling GPS that might fulfill my need for establishing on-the-fly detours? I have never used a cycling GPS--only automotive ones--so I could well be wrong in my assessment of their capabilities. I would be grateful for any recommendations.
Finally, as I look around for a suitable GPS, I have become aware that many smartphones can perform GPS functions. Such devices do also tend to be more readable in direct sunlight, which makes a smartphone a possibly suitable option as well. I actually have an older iphone, though I do not have a cellular plan with it and use it mainly for SIP calling and to watch youtube videos. Which brings up the question of how GPS functionality works in smartphones; perhaps someone on these forums can address this matter?
To wit, could I expect a smartphone's GPS functionality to work independently of a cellular provider? Many older smartphones are being sold at reasonable prices--about the same as a decent, used automotive GPS would cost. If such a phone could have a GPS app loaded onto it, say, via wifi, and if it could communicate directly with GPS satellites (rather than using cellular towers), it seems to me it could function just as well as, or perhaps better than, an automotive GPS. Can anyone comment on this plan and/or offer any enlightenment on how GPS functionality works on smartphones?
07-02-13, 11:40 AM
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As I consider smartphone GPS functionality more carefully, I'm beginning to think that smartphone apps probably require a data plan to function: most likely they need to download map segments to display current position and layout. In other words, these phones do not, unlike an automotive GPS, store map data within the device, but need--each time the GPS function is called for--to download map data from somewhere. This would require either a data plan or a wifi signal. Am I correct about this?
07-02-13, 11:47 AM
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Yeah, you're right; those would probably be better venues for my query. I should have looked more carefully. Is it possible to request that a moderator move this thread to one of those forums? Or do I have to just copy it into a new thread I'd create there?
07-02-13, 12:08 PM
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You can get a Garmin 605 or better with a map chip to do the very functions you are looking for. They are a bit smaller than the average SMART phone today. Many require you to buy the chip at an additional cost but I discovered that Ridewithgps.com sells the chip for the western half of the US and parts of Canada for 25 bucks. the Eastern half is about the same. They also sell chips for Europe. You can pre-plan a ride and set a course that you can follow on the unit.
07-02-13, 12:36 PM
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It seems that Garmin is going to have a new model geared toward what you want.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2013/06/14/...puter-spotted/
https://www.bikerumor.com/2013/06/14/...puter-spotted/
07-02-13, 01:38 PM
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With a smartphone, there's Android app that lets you download and store open source maps on the phone so you don't need a data connection when riding. Heck, you don't even need a phone plan at all. The app and GPS will work without any phone plan.
Garmin bike GPS units like the 705, 800, 810 have maps and navigation but the screens are rather small and low res so not so good for figuring things out on the fly. They're best if you create a route at home on your computer then download it the units. The units will navigate you to addresses, points of interest, etc., but you're then stuck with the route it decides. Minor deviations of a few miles are possible looking at the screen.
That Android app btw is OsmAnd
Garmin bike GPS units like the 705, 800, 810 have maps and navigation but the screens are rather small and low res so not so good for figuring things out on the fly. They're best if you create a route at home on your computer then download it the units. The units will navigate you to addresses, points of interest, etc., but you're then stuck with the route it decides. Minor deviations of a few miles are possible looking at the screen.
That Android app btw is OsmAnd
07-02-13, 01:48 PM
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With a smartphone, there's Android app that lets you download and store open source maps on the phone so you don't need a data connection when riding. Heck, you don't even need a phone plan at all. The app and GPS will work without any phone plan.
Garmin bike GPS units like the 705, 800, 810 have maps and navigation but the screens are rather small and low res so not so good for figuring things out on the fly. They're best if you create a route at home on your computer then download it the units. The units will navigate you to addresses, points of interest, etc., but you're then stuck with the route it decides. Minor deviations of a few miles are possible looking at the screen.
That Android app btw is OsmAnd
Garmin bike GPS units like the 705, 800, 810 have maps and navigation but the screens are rather small and low res so not so good for figuring things out on the fly. They're best if you create a route at home on your computer then download it the units. The units will navigate you to addresses, points of interest, etc., but you're then stuck with the route it decides. Minor deviations of a few miles are possible looking at the screen.
That Android app btw is OsmAnd
07-02-13, 02:08 PM
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Thanks for the interesting responses so far. Especially interesting to hear about the Android app that can store maps: that looks promising. So I take it that at least some smartphones can communicate directly with GPS satellites, not needing to go through cell towers as an intermediary?
As to your question, Mobile 155, about downloading an app without having a data plan: you use wifi to download it. This is how I use my older iphone: it's got no SIM in it and so can't be used on any cellular network, but it can establish wifi connections. I can therefore use it as a SIP phone via wifi. This is how the app and associated maps would be downloaded onto an Android phone that has no data plan. I've added apps to my iphone in this same way, btw.
As to the bike GPS's that have been recommended, they do look nice. But it brings up another aspect I should have stressed: budget. I could probably scrape together the ca. $300 these things cost, it's true. But if I can acquire something that approximates the same functionality (say, an older auto GPS) for one tenth that cost, why would I? Even an older smartphone might be gotten for $50 or so. Granted, these stand-ins are not going to have all the functionality that a bicycle GPS will have, and, in the case of older auto GPS's, the maps are liable to be out of date (and un-updatable). But I still believe that, for my purposes, they might function just as effectively as the $300 bicycle GPS--remember, my use is mainly to establish alternatives when a section of a selected route is unusable or undesirable. In other words, for unplanned detours.
As to your question, Mobile 155, about downloading an app without having a data plan: you use wifi to download it. This is how I use my older iphone: it's got no SIM in it and so can't be used on any cellular network, but it can establish wifi connections. I can therefore use it as a SIP phone via wifi. This is how the app and associated maps would be downloaded onto an Android phone that has no data plan. I've added apps to my iphone in this same way, btw.
As to the bike GPS's that have been recommended, they do look nice. But it brings up another aspect I should have stressed: budget. I could probably scrape together the ca. $300 these things cost, it's true. But if I can acquire something that approximates the same functionality (say, an older auto GPS) for one tenth that cost, why would I? Even an older smartphone might be gotten for $50 or so. Granted, these stand-ins are not going to have all the functionality that a bicycle GPS will have, and, in the case of older auto GPS's, the maps are liable to be out of date (and un-updatable). But I still believe that, for my purposes, they might function just as effectively as the $300 bicycle GPS--remember, my use is mainly to establish alternatives when a section of a selected route is unusable or undesirable. In other words, for unplanned detours.
Last edited by wayover13; 07-02-13 at 02:14 PM.
07-02-13, 02:56 PM
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1. 'Side loading' by using a cable to transfer data from your computer to your device.
2. If your device has Wifi, you can connect to your home network and transfer files that way.
3. Not as common, but you could also use Bluetooth.
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07-02-13, 02:58 PM
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Thanks for the interesting responses so far. Especially interesting to hear about the Android app that can store maps: that looks promising. So I take it that at least some smartphones can communicate directly with GPS satellites, not needing to go through cell towers as an intermediary?
As to your question, Mobile 155, about downloading an app without having a data plan: you use wifi to download it. This is how I use my older iphone: it's got no SIM in it and so can't be used on any cellular network, but it can establish wifi connections. I can therefore use it as a SIP phone via wifi. This is how the app and associated maps would be downloaded onto an Android phone that has no data plan. I've added apps to my iphone in this same way, btw.
As to the bike GPS's that have been recommended, they do look nice. But it brings up another aspect I should have stressed: budget. I could probably scrape together the ca. $300 these things cost, it's true. But if I can acquire something that approximates the same functionality (say, an older auto GPS) for one tenth that cost, why would I? Even an older smartphone might be gotten for $50 or so. Granted, these stand-ins are not going to have all the functionality that a bicycle GPS will have, and, in the case of older auto GPS's, the maps are liable to be out of date (and un-updatable). But I still believe that, for my purposes, they might function just as effectively as the $300 bicycle GPS--remember, my use is mainly to establish alternatives when a section of a selected route is unusable or undesirable. In other words, for unplanned detours.
As to your question, Mobile 155, about downloading an app without having a data plan: you use wifi to download it. This is how I use my older iphone: it's got no SIM in it and so can't be used on any cellular network, but it can establish wifi connections. I can therefore use it as a SIP phone via wifi. This is how the app and associated maps would be downloaded onto an Android phone that has no data plan. I've added apps to my iphone in this same way, btw.
As to the bike GPS's that have been recommended, they do look nice. But it brings up another aspect I should have stressed: budget. I could probably scrape together the ca. $300 these things cost, it's true. But if I can acquire something that approximates the same functionality (say, an older auto GPS) for one tenth that cost, why would I? Even an older smartphone might be gotten for $50 or so. Granted, these stand-ins are not going to have all the functionality that a bicycle GPS will have, and, in the case of older auto GPS's, the maps are liable to be out of date (and un-updatable). But I still believe that, for my purposes, they might function just as effectively as the $300 bicycle GPS--remember, my use is mainly to establish alternatives when a section of a selected route is unusable or undesirable. In other words, for unplanned detours.
07-02-13, 03:29 PM
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Do you have a VOIP you pay for to use the phone for SIP? I know, more questions than answers.
Last edited by wayover13; 07-02-13 at 04:08 PM.
07-02-13, 10:05 PM
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Rode with a GPS during my tour in 2005. I would not recommend using an auto GPS for bike touring as they are not built to withstand elements like rain (notice no cap on the usb port) and their battery life is very poor.
I would recommend a Garmin Oregon 450 or above and either buy the maps or download the maps for free (just google free Garmin maps) and get a bike mount for it. You will have maps that will auto route and even route according to bicycling avoiding interstates, toll roads and such. 2 or 4 alkalines will last you the entire day.
I would recommend a Garmin Oregon 450 or above and either buy the maps or download the maps for free (just google free Garmin maps) and get a bike mount for it. You will have maps that will auto route and even route according to bicycling avoiding interstates, toll roads and such. 2 or 4 alkalines will last you the entire day.
07-03-13, 05:29 AM
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I have used a Garmin E-trex The Etrex 20 would probably fulfill your needs. If I need a GPS now I just use my Android phone.
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
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RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
07-03-13, 08:15 AM
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As mentioned, Wifi, of course. Smart phones still work fine without phone/data service. They just don't connect through the cell network or make/receive calls. Actually, you can even do the latter via Skype or similar with a Wifi connection. (at least for Android)
07-03-13, 09:42 AM
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Thanks for the additional suggestions for cycling GPS's. I took a look and, for at least one, the price is a bit lower than the one previously recommended (i.e., less than $200). The weatherproof features of these units is definitely one thing in their favor. I'm also continuing to look at smartphone GPS, with interesting results I'll post below.
I happened to find out yesterday that a neighbor-friend who has an Anrdoid phone received his new Android unit about the time I started this thread. His old unit was deactivated and I asked whether I might play around with it to see how GPS on smartphones works, to which he agreed. This is an LG VM670, CDMA network, and it has Android 2.2 on it.
My first task was to see whether, without a data plan or valid cellular account, it could do any GPS. It had a couple of GPS/map apps already installed, so I tried those first. None would work so long as I was out of range of a wifi signal. But once I got in range and connected to wifi, the GPS began working. This indicates to me that these apps rely on a network connection to download map segments so as to display present position: the network connection must be either a data plan or an accessible wifi network, it seems.
Having connected to wifi, I decided to check out the app referenced above by Looigi--Osmand (Open Street Maps Automated Navigation Directions). This is a free app, so long as you restrict your map downloads to 10; should more than 10 map downloads be needed, there is apparently a cost attached. So I downloaded and installed the app, then a couple of maps (the world base map and the map for the state in which I reside). That was a fairly painless and straightforward procedure although I have had no previous experience with Android phones (have fiddled a bit with an iphone and ipad though, and am fairly handy with computers).
Anyway, taking the phone on a short drive (automobile--it's presently raining where I'm at) today, I can say things works as advertised. Despite having no cell plan or wifi connection, this phone/GPS app are able to track current position and display speed and other positioning data. So, at least so far as this phone goes, it apparently communicates directly with GPS satellites, not needing to go through cell towers to acquire GPS data.
The next step will be to take it on an actual bicycle test ride in bright sunlight to see how readable will be the display in direct sunlight. The screen is a bit small and I do wonder whether, even with it set to maximum brightness, it will be usable in direct sunlight. I'll have to report back about that. But, in any case, I did manage to prove that at least this type of smartphone can act as a GPS even with no valid cellular plan: all that's needed is an initial wifi connection to download the app and relevant map(s). After that it can work independently of any network connection (until you need a map for another area--say, if I passed into an adjacent state).
I happened to find out yesterday that a neighbor-friend who has an Anrdoid phone received his new Android unit about the time I started this thread. His old unit was deactivated and I asked whether I might play around with it to see how GPS on smartphones works, to which he agreed. This is an LG VM670, CDMA network, and it has Android 2.2 on it.
My first task was to see whether, without a data plan or valid cellular account, it could do any GPS. It had a couple of GPS/map apps already installed, so I tried those first. None would work so long as I was out of range of a wifi signal. But once I got in range and connected to wifi, the GPS began working. This indicates to me that these apps rely on a network connection to download map segments so as to display present position: the network connection must be either a data plan or an accessible wifi network, it seems.
Having connected to wifi, I decided to check out the app referenced above by Looigi--Osmand (Open Street Maps Automated Navigation Directions). This is a free app, so long as you restrict your map downloads to 10; should more than 10 map downloads be needed, there is apparently a cost attached. So I downloaded and installed the app, then a couple of maps (the world base map and the map for the state in which I reside). That was a fairly painless and straightforward procedure although I have had no previous experience with Android phones (have fiddled a bit with an iphone and ipad though, and am fairly handy with computers).
Anyway, taking the phone on a short drive (automobile--it's presently raining where I'm at) today, I can say things works as advertised. Despite having no cell plan or wifi connection, this phone/GPS app are able to track current position and display speed and other positioning data. So, at least so far as this phone goes, it apparently communicates directly with GPS satellites, not needing to go through cell towers to acquire GPS data.
The next step will be to take it on an actual bicycle test ride in bright sunlight to see how readable will be the display in direct sunlight. The screen is a bit small and I do wonder whether, even with it set to maximum brightness, it will be usable in direct sunlight. I'll have to report back about that. But, in any case, I did manage to prove that at least this type of smartphone can act as a GPS even with no valid cellular plan: all that's needed is an initial wifi connection to download the app and relevant map(s). After that it can work independently of any network connection (until you need a map for another area--say, if I passed into an adjacent state).
Last edited by wayover13; 07-03-13 at 09:45 AM.
07-03-13, 03:12 PM
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It and other GPS devices like it only receive GPS signals. They do not transmit to GPS satellites. You can buy GPS based emergency devices that do transmit, but they transmit on a different frequency to different satellites, a service you have to pay for.
08-06-13, 03:45 PM
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You can use Copilot ($) which downloads the maps to the phone and uses the GPS. I doesn't have trails in it though. Google Maps does use the data plan but, at least in Northern VA, shows the bike trails.
08-08-13, 07:56 PM
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today, I can say things works as advertised. Despite having no cell plan or wifi connection, this phone/GPS app are able to track current position and display speed and other positioning data. So, at least so far as this phone goes, it apparently communicates directly with GPS satellites, not needing to go through cell towers to acquire GPS data.
As you can imagine, it takes quality time to create a good safe route. I often look at Google street view to see if the road is too narrow or congested with traffic. Planning a route is more important than the GPS itself. You can get real inexpensive Garmin or Magellon GPS cheap on Ebay.
08-09-13, 06:54 AM
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The only problem with having the GPS create your route is they often put you on fast highways. I never trusted the GPS to create a good route unless it was inside a city. I found that making your route tends to work out better in the long run. However, this means buying a dedicated GPS from Garmin and the software to load on your computer.
As you can imagine, it takes quality time to create a good safe route. I often look at Google street view to see if the road is too narrow or congested with traffic. Planning a route is more important than the GPS itself. You can get real inexpensive Garmin or Magellon GPS cheap on Ebay.
As you can imagine, it takes quality time to create a good safe route. I often look at Google street view to see if the road is too narrow or congested with traffic. Planning a route is more important than the GPS itself. You can get real inexpensive Garmin or Magellon GPS cheap on Ebay.
08-09-13, 05:58 PM
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FWIW: GPS doesn't create routes. Routes are created by software in your device or in the cloud. GPS also doesn't know maps. Maps reside in your device or in the cloud. GPS itself only determines your geographic coordinates. Your device displays the GPS determined position on those maps.
I get the feeling the OP wants to carry a GPS device to assist only during emergencies. However, this actually works better for motorist or motorcyclist who can choose an alternate highway even if it's restricted. You don't want to end up in an emergency situation on a bicycle because the alternative just might end up being the interstate!
08-15-13, 06:37 PM
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Thanks for a very relevant thread as having maps when riding is a major issue with me also. I go out of state often, and have gotten LOST more often than I like to admit...and it ain't fun getting lost. My remedy thus far has been the WalMart special...Straight Talk or whatever, which for $45 a whack, I can activate an android phone without having to sign up to expensive contracts and the like. But...even $45 is a lot of money to me. There needs to be some sort of device for bicycling specifically for this function IMHO [and larger than the hbar computers etc]. Let me tell you, having a smartphone with me on alien terrain has saved my butt several times now. Any other suggestions [other than smartphone...just for the maps] would be greatly appreciated. Again, thanks for the thread.
08-16-13, 07:37 AM
#23
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Thanks for a very relevant thread as having maps when riding is a major issue with me also. I go out of state often, and have gotten LOST more often than I like to admit...and it ain't fun getting lost. My remedy thus far has been the WalMart special...Straight Talk or whatever, which for $45 a whack, I can activate an android phone without having to sign up to expensive contracts and the like. But...even $45 is a lot of money to me. There needs to be some sort of device for bicycling specifically for this function IMHO [and larger than the hbar computers etc]. Let me tell you, having a smartphone with me on alien terrain has saved my butt several times now. Any other suggestions [other than smartphone...just for the maps] would be greatly appreciated. Again, thanks for the thread.
08-19-13, 05:52 AM
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Thanks for a very relevant thread as having maps when riding is a major issue with me also. I go out of state often, and have gotten LOST more often than I like to admit...and it ain't fun getting lost. My remedy thus far has been the WalMart special...Straight Talk or whatever, which for $45 a whack, I can activate an android phone without having to sign up to expensive contracts and the like. But...even $45 is a lot of money to me. There needs to be some sort of device for bicycling specifically for this function IMHO [and larger than the hbar computers etc]. Let me tell you, having a smartphone with me on alien terrain has saved my butt several times now. Any other suggestions [other than smartphone...just for the maps] would be greatly appreciated. Again, thanks for the thread.
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I get the feeling the OP wants to carry a GPS device to assist only during emergencies. However, this actually works better for motorist or motorcyclist who can choose an alternate highway even if it's restricted. You don't want to end up in an emergency situation on a bicycle because the alternative just might end up being the interstate!
08-19-13, 07:53 AM
#25
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As I consider smartphone GPS functionality more carefully, I'm beginning to think that smartphone apps probably require a data plan to function: most likely they need to download map segments to display current position and layout. In other words, these phones do not, unlike an automotive GPS, store map data within the device, but need--each time the GPS function is called for--to download map data from somewhere. This would require either a data plan or a wifi signal. Am I correct about this?
Whoops, didn't scroll and didn't realize that this was a month + old and that there were already a lot of responses saying the same thing.
Last edited by mrodgers; 08-19-13 at 07:58 AM.