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Old 11-06-13, 10:47 AM   #26
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Abus Bordo , folding lock, on 1 bike + a chainlock (reaches further)

another bike, ring lock + 1.4M integrated chain - pin lock .

+ Location .. I dont live in a big city.
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Old 11-06-13, 10:53 AM   #27
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There are very few angle grinder tests on Youtube. The few that there are, usually involve low-end U locks. The best lock on youtube that I found was the the Abus Granit X Plus, being cut in 1 minut (1.30 with fiddling) with a corded angle grinder (=a bit more power). Which isn't that bad really, but could be better. A have yet to find a single video on the top kryptonite u locks.



I agree, but a good lock doesn't hurt. Yet alone two.

Haha that's compromise. It means that you agree to let 10-15-20% of the thieves that will get near your bike succeed at stealing your bike.
That's your choice to make. When i fly i expect the company not to have made any compromise on security even though i know they have. When you buy a 10$ lock because good locks are too expensive or too heavy that's compromise.
We humans compromise all the time

Here at 7min into the documentary the Kryptonite NY FAHGETTABOUDIT mini is cut in just 11 seconds


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Old 11-06-13, 03:50 PM   #28
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Haha that's compromise. It means that you agree to let 10-15-20% of the thieves that will get near your bike succeed at stealing your bike.
That's your choice to make. When i fly i expect the company not to have made any compromise on security even though i know they have. When you buy a 10$ lock because good locks are too expensive or too heavy that's compromise.
We humans compromise all the time
I dont know. I'm just a firm believer that the better the lock the less likely your bike will be stolen. No reason to make it any easier for some one to steal.


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Here at 7min into the documentary the Kryptonite NY FAHGETTABOUDIT mini is cut in just 11 seconds

None of the locks shown were the Fahgettaboudit Mini U lock, nor any other high end u lock. High end U-locks can only be cut with angle grinders. But it does show how weak a chain lock is.

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Old 11-06-13, 03:59 PM   #29
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Heard the Brilliant, David Cameron , locked his bike to a parking bollard,

someone just lifted the locked bike up those few feet and carried it off.

Tory PM's can always afford New Bikes, so don't feel sympathy.
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Old 11-06-13, 04:34 PM   #30
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Did this happen outside at night, or in the day?
Inside of my building's parking garage. In view of a camera,and the thief went past 3 other cameras when he left. Cops took a report,that was all.
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Old 11-06-13, 04:53 PM   #31
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I dont know. I'm just a firm believer that the better the lock the less likely your bike will be stolen. No reason to make it any easier for some one to steal.


None of the locks shown were the Fahgettaboudit Mini U lock, nor any other high end u lock. High end U-locks can only be cut with angle grinders. But it does show how weak a chain lock is.

Yeah you're right the ulock was a disk lock and it was the chain that was cut, the title of the link where i found this video was saying fahgettaboudit and i fell for it, my mistake

i have a youtube video of what appear to be the abus granite x plus 54 (one side cut in less than 6 sec)
Another youtube video of what appear to be a kryptonite disk lock on the ground(one side cut in little bit over 2 min)
Another youtube video of what appear to be a long thick kryptonite (not a disk lock for sure) but it's too blurry to know which one exactly (one side cut in less than 30 sec)

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Old 11-06-13, 06:54 PM   #32
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I dont know. I'm just a firm believer that the better the lock the less likely your bike will be stolen. No reason to make it any easier for some one to steal.
From time to time i meet some cyclists that start laughing when they see my huge motorcycle/caravan/boat or whatever chain. When i tell them that the one they have can be opened in just a few seconds, they stop laughing. Mine is not much better anyway with the proper tool and the right condition maybe 5 or 10 minutes, a NY krypto fah a little less maybe but not much. But when you add a second lock and other layers of security...

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Old 11-06-13, 09:25 PM   #33
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If a lock takes more than about a minute with an angle grinder to cut, I don't blame the lock as much as the people that let it happen. If someone doesn't step in and stop a thief after a minute of noisy cutting, they aren't going to step in after 20 minutes of noisy cutting, so the thief will win anyway. I suspect that most people I know would at least check someone out if they heard an angle grinder where there shouldn't be one.

Honestly though, I ride a 10 year old comfort bike, so I could probably lock it with cable ties and it will probably be there when I get back.
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Old 11-07-13, 04:36 AM   #34
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Yeah you're right the ulock was a disk lock and it was the chain that was cut, the title of the link where i found this video was saying fahgettaboudit and i fell for it, my mistake

i have a youtube video of what appear to be the abus granite x plus 54 (one side cut in less than 6 sec)
Another youtube video of what appear to be a kryptonite disk lock on the ground(one side cut in little bit over 2 min)
Another youtube video of what appear to be a long thick kryptonite (not a disk lock for sure) but it's too blurry to know which one exactly (one side cut in less than 30 sec)
feel free to share.
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Old 11-07-13, 04:37 AM   #35
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From time to time i meet some cyclists that start laughing when they see my huge motorcycle/caravan/boat or whatever chain. When i tell them that the one they have can be opened in just a few seconds, they stop laughing. Mine is not much better anyway with the proper tool and the right condition maybe 5 or 10 minutes, a NY krypto fah a little less maybe but not much. But when you add a second lock and other layers of security...
lol sounds like one hell of a lock. do you have a picture?
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Old 11-07-13, 06:39 AM   #36
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lol sounds like one hell of a lock. do you have a picture?
Here is one from another brand Al max that has the same diameter 19mm (mine is from pragmasis also a 19mm in reality though it is 19.85mm minimum by spec) with the same padlock that i have a 16mm abloy.
I had the mul-t-lock 18mm but i sent it back because the key was weak and would have break eventually. And i would have had a hard time cutting a lock-chain this size due to a broken key stucked inside the padlock. If they had an abloy 19mm or a mul-t-lock key without the plastic part i would have gone for it instead.

I have some doubt regarding the resistance of the mul-t-lock to liquid nitrogen attacks, the abloy is resistant to this attack as shown here at 3m30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh46F3we1-M

Ideally, a sargent n greenleaf 951C padlock would be ideal but the price just doesn't make any sense so I had to compromise
https://securitysnobs.com/Sargent-Gr...1-Padlock.html

The combo padlock-chain is not cheap but i will probably have this chain all my life, the padlock will get stucked eventually one day so that i will probably have to cut it.

Regarding the weight of the chain it is about the weight of a bicycle for each meter length 6.3kg/m or 4.23lb/ft, hopefully 1m/3.28ft long is not so heavy ideally 1.2m/3.94ft would have been perfect. With a 1.2m long chain you can attach to most things without giving slack that a thief can use.

Since the extra weight on my bike is noticeable mostly when climbing to compensate i had to reduce the chainring size.

Also, because of the size of the chain i had to remove one spoke in order for the chain to go through the bicycle wheel. Haven't had any problem with it since the removal a few years back.


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Old 11-07-13, 01:25 PM   #37
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Here is one from another brand Al max that has the same diameter 19mm (mine is from pragmasis also a 19mm in reality though it is 19.85mm minimum by spec) with the same padlock that i have a 16mm abloy.
I had the mul-t-lock 18mm but i sent it back because the key was weak and would have break eventually. And i would have had a hard time cutting a lock-chain this size due to a broken key stucked inside the padlock. If they had an abloy 19mm or a mul-t-lock key without the plastic part i would have gone for it instead.

I have some doubt regarding the resistance of the mul-t-lock to liquid nitrogen attacks, the abloy is resistant to this attack as shown here at 3m30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh46F3we1-M

Ideally, a sargent n greenleaf 951C padlock would be ideal but the price just doesn't make any sense so I had to compromise
https://securitysnobs.com/Sargent-Gr...1-Padlock.html

The combo padlock-chain is not cheap but i will probably have this chain all my life, the padlock will get stucked eventually one day so that i will probably have to cut it.

Regarding the weight of the chain it is about the weight of a bicycle for each meter length 6.3kg/m or 4.23lb/ft, hopefully 1m/3.28ft long is not so heavy ideally 1.2m/3.94ft would have been perfect. With a 1.2m long chain you can attach to most things without giving slack that a thief can use.

Since the extra weight on my bike is noticeable mostly when climbing to compensate i had to reduce the chainring size.

Also, because of the size of the chain i had to remove one spoke in order for the chain to go through the bicycle wheel. Haven't had any problem with it since the removal a few years back.

That's a beasty chain, 20mm is something! And the padlock got some real good beating there. I wish all manufacturers would upload videos of their products being tested. With that being said, they pretty much used all tools in that video EXCEPT an angle grinder! Still, from the other tests the padlock would probably take some time to cut through with a grinder. The chain too. Unfortunately we'll never know for sure until it's on camera.

Whether or not your locking set-up better than a simple Fahgettaboudit Mini U-lock or perhaps a pair, I dont know. It's certainly heavier, but also easier to lock onto objects. The Fahgettaboudit has very little room. As far as strenght, the Fahgettaboudit is probably stronger than the actual chain links (despite their extra 2mm), but around the same level of the 16mm padlock. I dont know if it's worth all the hazzle, but if it can survive 5 minutes against an angle grinder I think it's worth it, but we dont know that.

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Old 11-07-13, 01:27 PM   #38
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they pretty much used all tools in that video EXCEPT an angle grinder!
Come on! Like if you didn't know the answer
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Old 11-07-13, 01:50 PM   #39
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Whether or not your locking set-up better than a simple Fahgettaboudit Mini U-lock or perhaps a pair, I dont know. It's certainly heavier, but also easier to lock onto objects. The Fahgettaboudit has very little room. As far as strenght, the Fahgettaboudit is probably stronger than the actual chain links (despite their extra 2mm), but around the same level of the 16mm padlock. I dont know if it's worth all the hazzle, but if it can survive 5 minutes against an angle grinder I think it's worth it, but we dont know that.
It would be interesting to know

In the links below they used what it is assumed to be an angle grinder in phase 2 to cut the locks (all the locks beat the phase 1):

-fahgettaboudit mini......... 18mm round, 2 disks with 1 disk broken...: 3min/side
-pragmasis.................... ?13mm round, 2 disks............................: 3min40/side
-abus granit xplus............ 13mm square parabolic.........................: 1min15/side
-NY MC.......................... 16mm round:....................................... 2min/side

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...it-mini-16565/
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...-x-plus-10512/
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...york-mc-39848/

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...-ss50cs-39857/
(the chain is probably the pragmasis 13mm chain because:
clue 1: the 2m long chain with its cover weight 6.4kg which is 6.4kg/2m = 3.2kg/m or seller website says 13mm chain <=> 2.9kg/m and 16mm chain <=> 4.5kg/m;
clue 2: price under 100 pounds;
clue 3: the lock is a ss50cs or seller website says the combo lock-chain with this lock is for the 13mm chain and under)

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Old 11-07-13, 02:19 PM   #40
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I'm surprised i've read so much about locking bikes but I haven't seen anyone mention how important it is to lock your bike as high as possible. What I mean by that is have the lock up on the bike as high as possible, the higher the lock, the harder it will be to use bolt cutters on them. Like in the videos shared, the thief would put one arm of the cutter on the ground while putting all their weight on the other arm, much harder if not impossible to do if the lock is up high.
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Old 11-07-13, 02:42 PM   #41
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I'm surprised i've read so much about locking bikes but I haven't seen anyone mention how important it is to lock your bike as high as possible. What I mean by that is have the lock up on the bike as high as possible, the higher the lock, the harder it will be to use bolt cutters on them. Like in the videos shared, the thief would put one arm of the cutter on the ground while putting all their weight on the other arm, much harder if not impossible to do if the lock is up high.
That's right no lock/chain should be close to the ground. It is especially the case with the chains that are too long. When i was looking for my chain a few years back I saw a video that was showing someone in his garden using another common tool to break the chain easily due to the fact that the chain was on the ground

It is one of the basic rules for any lock:
-nowhere near the ground
-no room that a thief can use as leverage
-no cable locks
-avoid entry level chains/locks that are too thin
-locks should be attached to an immovable object
-don't attach your lock to the frame only or to the wheel only except for the sheldon technique
-avoid quick release skewers
etc..
http://www.nationalbikeregistry.com/proplock.html

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Old 11-07-13, 04:45 PM   #42
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In the links below they used what it is assumed to be an angle grinder in phase 2 to cut the locks (all the locks beat the phase 1):

-fahgettaboudit mini......... 18mm round, 2 disks with 1 disk broken...: 3min/side
-pragmasis.................... ?13mm round, 2 disks............................: 3min40/side
-abus granit xplus............ 13mm square parabolic.........................: 1min15/side
-NY MC.......................... 16mm round:....................................... 2min/side

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...it-mini-16565/
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...-x-plus-10512/
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...york-mc-39848/

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...-ss50cs-39857/
The problem with bikeradar is that their numbers are just wrong, or at least very suspicious. Take for instance the Abus Granit X-Plus, tested and listed at 1m15s per cut, for a total of 2m30s. But then look at this video


It took him 30s per cut, for a total of 1 min. I see to options here: 1 - bikeradar is lying and being paid to write good reviews, 2 - the angle grinders are too different. It's hard to say, especially when Bikeradar never show footage of the actual testing on any of their locks.

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Old 11-07-13, 04:48 PM   #43
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I'm surprised i've read so much about locking bikes but I haven't seen anyone mention how important it is to lock your bike as high as possible. What I mean by that is have the lock up on the bike as high as possible, the higher the lock, the harder it will be to use bolt cutters on them. Like in the videos shared, the thief would put one arm of the cutter on the ground while putting all their weight on the other arm, much harder if not impossible to do if the lock is up high.
Allthough this is important for lower-end u locks or chain locks, the U-locks discussed here can only be cut by angle grinders so it doesn't really make any difference (or does it?).
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Old 11-07-13, 09:18 PM   #44
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The problem with bikeradar is that their numbers are just wrong, or at least very suspicious. Take for instance the Abus Granit X-Plus, tested and listed at 1m15s per cut, for a total of 2m30s. But then look at this video

It took him 30s per cut, for a total of 1 min. I see to options here: 1 - bikeradar is lying and being paid to write good reviews, 2 - the angle grinders are too different. It's hard to say, especially when Bikeradar never show footage of the actual testing on any of their locks.
It depends on the disk used (cut, grind...). You can easily take twice the time if you don't take the right disk, it also depends on the skill of the guy who do the test etc..
What can be say is that we can assume that all the tests have been made by bikeradar (we don't know who did it, how ... etc...), we can also assume that they timed the tests the same way as they seems to imply in the different reviews. We know the locks, their size, the shape of the shackles, (how many disks they used is useless without knowing who and how). Everything else is unknown to me. Because of the unknown variables those bikeradar's results means nothing.

One thing though is what they say about the faghettaboudit mini
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...it-mini-16565/

"Unlike the excellent Abus, in test two this one only required the one cut,"

I didn't noticed that before but if you don't need to cut both side that's a huge drawback, one side only is not good.

Never mind they probably have made a mistake because on the kryptonite website it is written that they both have a double deadbolt locking mechanism so it is likely 2 cuts necessary and not just one

Last edited by erig007; 11-07-13 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 11-08-13, 03:46 AM   #45
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Never mind they probably have made a mistake because on the kryptonite website it is written that they both have a double deadbolt locking mechanism so it is likely 2 cuts necessary and not just one
Yeh I think the Bikeradr review is on an older version of the lock, the review itself is from 2007.
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Old 11-09-13, 12:56 PM   #46
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The best Dlock 2013, the Abus Extreme 59?
http://www.urbanbiketech.com/Abus-Gr.../810001-01.htm

The massive, parabolic 16mm square section shackle is produced from proprietary hardened steel, making it massively resistant to cropping and twisting. The square cross-section presents 20% more steel versus a round cross-section. It is also worth mentioning that Abus owns and controls the entire supply chain for their proprietary hardened steel. It stands up to cutting and grinding attacks better than the standard, mass-produced hardened steel used by competitors which requires significantly larger diameter links and a higher overall weight. The City Chain is rated by Sold Secure and ART at their maximum ratings. That's a good thing.

Let's do some maths:


Everything else being equal
Sround: s= pi x r x r
Ssquare: s = 4 x r x r
4 > pi

r krypto mini = 18/2 = 9mm
r abus extreme 59 = 16/2 = 8mm?

Skrypto mini = 254.47mm2
Sabus extreme 59 = Sconvex parabolic square with round corners

We know that Sconvex parabolic square > Ssquare

If r mini-circle at round corners = 1mm (arbitrary)
there is 4 round corners

Ssquare with round corners = Ssquare - S1mmwidesquares + Scircleatroundcorners
= 16 x 16 - 4 x 1 x 1 + 4 x (pi x 1 x 1)/4 = 256 - 4 + pi > 255mm2

then Ssquare with round corners > 255mm2 > Skrypto mini = 254.47mm2


Sabus extreme 59 > S krypto mini

+

better quality process claimed for abus

+

for most theft attacks: parabolic square section shackle > round section shackle

What remains unknown is which lock has the best hardened alloy against an angle grinder???
Any test???

Nevermind, the abus extreme 59 has a big weakness


Ever heard of the hardlock lock?
They claim it is theft proof even against an angle grinder.
I can see some weaknesses


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Old 11-09-13, 04:11 PM   #47
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The best Dlock 2013, the Abus Extreme 59?
http://www.urbanbiketech.com/Abus-Gr.../810001-01.htm

The massive, parabolic 16mm square section shackle is produced from proprietary hardened steel, making it massively resistant to cropping and twisting. The square cross-section presents 20% more steel versus a round cross-section. It is also worth mentioning that Abus owns and controls the entire supply chain for their proprietary hardened steel. It stands up to cutting and grinding attacks better than the standard, mass-produced hardened steel used by competitors which requires significantly larger diameter links and a higher overall weight. The City Chain is rated by Sold Secure and ART at their maximum ratings. That's a good thing.

Let's do some maths:


Everything else being equal
Sround: s= pi x r x r
Ssquare: s = 4 x r x r
4 > pi

r krypto mini = 18/2 = 9mm
r abus extreme 59 = 16/2 = 8mm?

Skrypto mini = 254.47mm2
Sabus extreme 59 = Sconvex parabolic square with round corners

We know that Sconvex parabolic square > Ssquare

If r mini-circle at round corners = 1mm (arbitrary)
there is 4 round corners

Ssquare with round corners = Ssquare - S1mmwidesquares + Scircleatroundcorners
= 16 x 16 - 4 x 1 x 1 + 4 x (pi x 1 x 1)/4 = 256 - 4 + pi > 255mm2

then Ssquare with round corners > 255mm2 > Skrypto mini = 254.47mm2


Sabus extreme 59 > S krypto mini

+

better quality process claimed for abus

+

for most theft attacks: parabolic square section shackle > round section shackle

What remains unknown is which lock has the best hardened alloy against an angle grinder???
Any test???

Nevermind, the abus extreme 59 has a big weakness


Ever heard of the hardlock lock?
They claim it is theft proof even against an angle grinder.
I can see some weaknesses

I dont know about the math lol, but the alleged angle grinder-proof lock seems interesting. Allthough I doubt it, seeing new ideas is always good. But I can't seem to find anything on google when searching for hardlock lock.
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Old 11-09-13, 04:20 PM   #48
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Because it isn't launched yet. For what i have read on it, it will be launched for 60 euros this december. But they will have to change the metal part unless they want to keep paying the insurance claims to everybody because i see some weaknesses there.

Last edited by erig007; 11-09-13 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11-09-13, 07:26 PM   #49
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Yeah, just cut through the metal. That's what an angle grinder exists for!

What's the shroud on that? Some kind of rubber?

And what about kevlar?

M.
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Old 11-09-13, 08:16 PM   #50
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On their marketing video they start attacking the rubber part of the lock for a few seconds with an angle grinder the result is no marking on the rubber part. They claim that to defeat the lock you must use several tools in the right order since the rubber part is made of several materials. To sum up they have stolen one of my ideas They start attacking the metal part only with a screwdriver. What they don't show is what happen if the metal part is attacked with an angle grinder instead. Hopefully, if they have put some rubber under the metal part then...

Last edited by erig007; 11-09-13 at 08:55 PM.
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