Random thoughts re: Brooks saddles
#76
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,686
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1125 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times
in
204 Posts
Your thoughts are incorrect. A lot of touring cyclists embrace their Brooks saddles after trying other cheaper saddles and finding nothing but pain. I have two Brooks, a B17 and an Swift and neither need lacing, but if a person is a clydesdale it is possible that a little lacing may be needed eventually, which isn't a bad thing it actually kind of looks nice if laced well. If lacing doesn't do it for you then some people cut off about the bottom of the saddle leather so it looks more like the Swallow saddle, but you better be good at doing exacting work or it will look like crap when your done, a leather repair place should be able to do that expertly.
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: IL-USA
Posts: 1,859
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Do any bicycle saddle companies expressly state NOT to sit on their products? Seems like they would be the ones to know.... And why the (very common) padding in cycling shorts then? Recumbent shorts look the same but have no padding, as I said.
Apparently a whole bunch of bicycling accessory companies think somebody is sitting on their saddles...
#78
Senior Member
My '75 Fuji S-10S came with a Fujita Belt saddle, which is essentially a Brooks B-17 clone. It has been on there ever since. I was 18 at the time I bought that bike. My college dormmates all had Brooks saddles of one kind or another - on their Raleigh, or Viscount, or Paramount... so we were hardly old guys or 'age-wave, older men'. The whole advantage to a leather saddle is that it 'breaks in' to the specific rider's bottom after a few hundred miles. Yes, it is painful at first, but after the mutual agreement between saddle and bottom are met, they are wonderful - just like a pair of broken-in hiking boots.
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
My '75 Fuji S-10S came with a Fujita Belt saddle, which is essentially a Brooks B-17 clone. It has been on there ever since. I was 18 at the time I bought that bike. My college dormmates all had Brooks saddles of one kind or another - on their Raleigh, or Viscount, or Paramount... so we were hardly old guys or 'age-wave, older men'. The whole advantage to a leather saddle is that it 'breaks in' to the specific rider's bottom after a few hundred miles. Yes, it is painful at first, but after the mutual agreement between saddle and bottom are met, they are wonderful - just like a pair of broken-in hiking boots.
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pacific, WA
Posts: 1,260
Bikes: Custom 531ST touring, Bilenky Viewpoint, Bianchi Milano, vintage Condor racer
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
https://www.permaco.com/en-us/dept_7.html
#81
Thread Killer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,431
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 1,700 Times
in
1,027 Posts
1. The whole point of gel (and foam) padded seats is precisely to conform to bum every time they're sat upon, in any position, by any rider, in any garb. They're not supposed to permanently deform.
2. Cobb, for one, produces padded, plastic saddles that they claim have a resin base that does deform and mold to the rider over time.
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: IL-USA
Posts: 1,859
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
--------
If you like the way leather saddles look then that's fine, but they're not an automatic cure for anything. And if you look at many bicycle accessory catalogs from ~100 years ago, you see a-l-l-l-l-l this stuff like upturned edges, lacing, saddle cutouts, extra-wide spots, extra-narrow spots, springs going all over,,,, all these modern miracles that's supposed to "cure" the butt-pain problem. None of them did then, and they still don't now.
If you can sit on a bike for 30-45 minutes properly equipped (that is, with decent riding shorts) then you're doing about average. Most casual group rides I've seen stopped about once an hour for ~10 minutes to rest their "legs".
A lot of people can go much longer non-stop than that, I used to myself--but it was never comfortable.
#83
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: West Coast of Wisconsin
Posts: 660
Bikes: 2011 Surly LHT 2005 LeMond Zurich
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So, no matter many years (or decades) one rides, the portion of my anatomy that rests on the saddle stays in the same shape?
Just wondering.
Just wondering.
#84
Señor Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,066
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
215 Posts
the padding is not actually padding
but a synthetic
or sometimes natural
chamois
it is intended be close to the skin of the pressure bearing part of the body
to absorb sweat and prevent chafing
i agree that people do sit on saddles
although you could also make an argument that people straddle saddles
but this difference is insignificant
but a synthetic
or sometimes natural
chamois
it is intended be close to the skin of the pressure bearing part of the body
to absorb sweat and prevent chafing
i agree that people do sit on saddles
although you could also make an argument that people straddle saddles
but this difference is insignificant
#85
Thread Killer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,431
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 1,700 Times
in
1,027 Posts
the padding is not actually padding
but a synthetic
or sometimes natural
chamois
it is intended be close to the skin of the pressure bearing part of the body
to absorb sweat and prevent chafing
i agree that people do sit on saddles
although you could also make an argument that people straddle saddles
but this difference is insignificant
but a synthetic
or sometimes natural
chamois
it is intended be close to the skin of the pressure bearing part of the body
to absorb sweat and prevent chafing
i agree that people do sit on saddles
although you could also make an argument that people straddle saddles
but this difference is insignificant
#87
Thread Killer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,431
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 1,700 Times
in
1,027 Posts
You have a unique perspective, it seems, but I don't understand what is the nature of this "significant" distinctlon.
#88
Señor Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,066
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
215 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
don't understand what is the nature of this "significant" distinctlon.
but if you are really wondering
the type of padding i took doug5150s comments to mean
was a cushion to augment saddle padding
please forgive me if i misunderstood doug5150
but the chamios in bike shorts offers no such cushion
that i know of anyway
chamios is there to protect your skin from moisture and chafing
Last edited by Wilfred Laurier; 01-22-14 at 02:39 PM.
#89
Thread Killer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,431
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 1,700 Times
in
1,027 Posts
i am sure there are many other things in that category
but if you are really wondering
the type of padding i took doug5150s comments to mean
was a cushion to augment saddle padding
please forgive me if i misunderstood doug5150
but the chamios in bike shorts offers no such cushion
that i know of anyway
chamios is there to protect your skin from moisture and chafing
but if you are really wondering
the type of padding i took doug5150s comments to mean
was a cushion to augment saddle padding
please forgive me if i misunderstood doug5150
but the chamios in bike shorts offers no such cushion
that i know of anyway
chamios is there to protect your skin from moisture and chafing
Even if the primary purpose of the is generally, as you say, "to protect your skin from moisture and chafing," (which I doubt, of course), to the extent it also provides comfort, or "augments saddle padding" (??) is not diminished were that it's primary design purpose, so really, any distinction you may be trying to make certainly seems insignificant.
#90
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
What it all boils down to is Leather saddles work for people who ride leather saddles. The do not work for everyone. Nor does most other saddles. Some people find the SMP uncomfortable or any of the racing saddles uncomfortable and yet more people ride them than Brooks or the other leather saddles. I have tried Brooks and Selle Anatomica. I do favor the Anatomica slightly over the Imperial but then I ride road and MTB bikes not Hybrids or touring bikes.
#91
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,784
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3587 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
1,934 Posts
You should grab a pair of cycling shorts, check 'em out; they're padded. And why guess as to what the purpose of the pad is, when you can visit an apparel producers site, e.g. Pearl Izumi, and see they make no bones about the fact the padding is there for comfort: https://shop.pearlizumi.com/cms/uploads/chamoisgrid.pdf
Even if the primary purpose of the is generally, as you say, "to protect your skin from moisture and chafing," (which I doubt, of course), to the extent it also provides comfort, or "augments saddle padding" (??) is not diminished were that it's primary design purpose, so really, any distinction you may be trying to make certainly seems insignificant.
Even if the primary purpose of the is generally, as you say, "to protect your skin from moisture and chafing," (which I doubt, of course), to the extent it also provides comfort, or "augments saddle padding" (??) is not diminished were that it's primary design purpose, so really, any distinction you may be trying to make certainly seems insignificant.
#92
Thread Killer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,431
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 1,700 Times
in
1,027 Posts
Traditional bike shorts used real chamois in the crotch, and that's all it was -- just a very thin piece of soft leather to protect your butt from chafing. No padding; that was the job of the slung leather saddle. The plastic shell saddles that started to appear in the 70s often put some foam padding between the shell and the leather top to provide some cushion, but still it was the job of the saddle, not the shorts. Only fairly recently as marketing departments saw saddle weight as a readily quantifiable characteristic to attract customers did padding start to shift into the shorts, where it wouldn't count against the saddle weight in the marketing brochures. While the end result is fairly similar vis-a-vis comfort, you didn't feel like you were wearing a loaded diaper when you wore a traditional bike short with a thin leather chamois.
#93
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boynton Beach, FL.
Posts: 5
Bikes: Cervelo S2 & State Contender
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've ridden on many saddles, always found Brooks very comfortable. Yes, it is an ancient design when compared to the materials and tech of today's modern saddles. But like many other products, sometimes simple design and materials fit the bill and become timeless. What I've found is that it takes several weeks and hundreds of miles before my Brooks seats were broken in properly and fit my rump. Just like a baseball glove they're stiff and uncomfortable to start with but once broken in they're a perfect fit.
#94
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,784
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3587 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
1,934 Posts
The point is that slung leather saddles like Brooks, Ideale, etc. are quite comfortable even without padding in the shorts. And once you take into account the mass of the padding in your shorts, the weight savings you perceive in using a modern carbon-fiber shingle saddle are marginal.
Last edited by JohnDThompson; 01-23-14 at 10:52 AM.
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
The point is that slung leather saddles like Brooks, Ideale, etc. are quite comfortable even without padding in the shorts. And unless you take into account the mass of the padding in your shorts, the weight savings you perceive in using a modern carbon-fiber shingle saddle are marginal.
I have listened to the Brooks devotees for many years now and heard all of the Cures for a Brooks that didn't break in after the first 500 miles, from hot oil to microwaves and any number of other magic spells that can be administered to keep you from sliding or getting perineum pressure. Even Brooks gave up and invented the Imperial once they realized that problem existed for riders with different pelvic tilts. In other words sit bones are only one part of a comfortable saddle. In some cases not the most important one.
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,686
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1125 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times
in
204 Posts
But one does need to keep in mind that the B17 is NOT designed to be used on a racing bike, it is a saddle that is designed for a more upright riding position, the Brooks saddles that are designed for racing, or more aggressive riding position is the Swallow foremost followed by the Swift. I think maybe...note I said maybe, if you had bought a Swallow, and or maybe the Swift, instead of the B17 for your bike I think perhaps the fitter could have gotten you comfortable on that saddle because the Selle is more of a narrow racing saddle like the Swallow.
According to Brooks the Swallow saddle is their most elastic saddle, and the Swift is a slightly more stiffer saddle, but the Brooks Team Professional is their stiffest saddle.
Professional rider Basso rides on a Brooks saddle when he's just out riding but not while training or racing, see: https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/...6cc856a5ec.jpg. notice the retro bike too? Some other pro riders like Boonen ride on retro seats, he rides on a Selle San Marco Regal during the Paris Roubaix. Lance use to use a rebadged Concor Light. But the reason all leather saddles haven't been used in pro racing since about 1980 I think was the last year a Brooks saddle was in a pro race is do the fact that a leather saddle takes too much time to break in and pro riders are constantly switching bikes thus a pro doesn't want to be bothered breaking in a saddle on all those bikes, plus they ride in all sorts of weather which will ruin a Brooks in short order, and there is too much care involved to hassle with. What a weird situation it would be for a rider to crash or have a major malfunction and instead of just being given a new bike the mechanic would have to remove the saddle from the old bike and put it on the new bike because the old saddle is broken in, a huge waste of time.
#98
Senior Member
#99
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
I did not mean to say I am familiar with the requirements of bicycle saddles. But my view is more about design process than about design requirements. As far as cars and spacecraft to, I have read them and in some cases created the requirements, and I have worked under the design processes in both industries.
And yes, I do know some people.
Last edited by Road Fan; 02-05-14 at 01:12 PM.
#100
Banned
Functionally Selle = saddle, in Italian , so is a meaningless redundancy .
3 'selle' manufacturers come to mind , one of them, also owns Brooks.
The 'Chamois' is there as a crotch/butt sweat absorbant pad, not a frickin pillow.
I'm with JDT, the sling of leather , between 2 rivet rails has been fine for 100+ years..
I have one i got 30 years worth of use , myself.. still fine (the Professional version)
Looks like their C 17 does that using Rubber stretched to similar effect .
just wont stretch if you bone-headedly dont cover it in the rain ..
when your arse is not on it..
3 'selle' manufacturers come to mind , one of them, also owns Brooks.
The 'Chamois' is there as a crotch/butt sweat absorbant pad, not a frickin pillow.
I'm with JDT, the sling of leather , between 2 rivet rails has been fine for 100+ years..
I have one i got 30 years worth of use , myself.. still fine (the Professional version)
Looks like their C 17 does that using Rubber stretched to similar effect .
just wont stretch if you bone-headedly dont cover it in the rain ..
when your arse is not on it..
Last edited by fietsbob; 02-05-14 at 02:38 PM.