Retrofittable Shaft Drive anyone?
02-27-15, 02:34 PM
#26
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Factory timing.
Auto Adjusters on brakes.
Dynamic Idle Control
etc.
In the bike world... it is still like we're working on 1950's cars when everything was manually tuned.
Re-adjusting the brakes for wear.
Adjusting derailleur stops.
Adjusting shifting (note, this was made more complicated with indexed shifting, although I suppose riders would fine-tune friction shifting with every shift).
etc.
More of it could be automated, but the demand to do so has been low. I can foresee a divergence between heavily automated and very expensive electronic bikes and sweet and simple classic bikes.
02-27-15, 03:23 PM
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To contextualize a bit, I am the one who thinks bikes are simpler machines and it was a bike mechanic in a pro shop who told me that they are finer machines and can therefore get pretty complex. Like I said, I think the bike mechanic might have been defending pride wounded by the idea that I called his job 'simple.' I'm not in the business of putting people down (or up) but things I say get taken that way, as I'm sure happens to everyone. Ego tends to re-interpret things you say as a comment about personal value.
Anyway, I think as simple as bikes are, they can be much more of a headache to work on than they need to be because of proprietary incompatibilities and systems that defy simplicity and ease of service. I was committed to servicing cup-cone bottom bearings, for example, until I found out it's hard to find a bike shop that sells retainer bearings for cheap bikes and I've been told that bike shops will sell mismatched loose bearing sets to people who don't spend enough money at their shops.
This biases my decision to service bottom brackets because I think it will appease the bike shops if I spend the money for sealed bottom bracket cartridge. Now my only worry is that if I don't watch out and spend-up the cost of the BB cartridge I buy, I will end up with a low-quality one that requires frequent replacement until I opt for a higher end one. Instead of just worrying about getting decent parts and keeping costs down by servicing it yourself, bike maintenance becomes about the politics of appeasing business people in the industry.
It takes away from the blissful simplicity of the machine and the liberation from work that offers when you have to think about working more to spend-up bike parts because otherwise you'll be accused of trying to drive people out of business by only replacing simple parts for cheap instead of showering businesses with money to take good care of you.
Ideally, there would be something like a discount auto parts store for bike parts where you could get any part you need for any bike at a standardized price and there was no hassle or ideological conflict about the economic politics of the industry. Then maintaining a bike, any bike, would be blissfully simple and affordable indeed.
As I write this, however, I am reminded of an instance where I had to order an auto part from ebay after getting one from a discount auto parts store that didn't fit and broke while modifying it to fit. Ironically, the part from ebay was cheaper and fit perfectly; although if I had been unlucky it might not have and I would have ended up buying two more from various sellers before getting a good one.
Dealing with parts-suppliers can make or break the simplicity and affordability of servicing any machine.
Anyway, I think as simple as bikes are, they can be much more of a headache to work on than they need to be because of proprietary incompatibilities and systems that defy simplicity and ease of service. I was committed to servicing cup-cone bottom bearings, for example, until I found out it's hard to find a bike shop that sells retainer bearings for cheap bikes and I've been told that bike shops will sell mismatched loose bearing sets to people who don't spend enough money at their shops.
This biases my decision to service bottom brackets because I think it will appease the bike shops if I spend the money for sealed bottom bracket cartridge. Now my only worry is that if I don't watch out and spend-up the cost of the BB cartridge I buy, I will end up with a low-quality one that requires frequent replacement until I opt for a higher end one. Instead of just worrying about getting decent parts and keeping costs down by servicing it yourself, bike maintenance becomes about the politics of appeasing business people in the industry.
It takes away from the blissful simplicity of the machine and the liberation from work that offers when you have to think about working more to spend-up bike parts because otherwise you'll be accused of trying to drive people out of business by only replacing simple parts for cheap instead of showering businesses with money to take good care of you.
Ideally, there would be something like a discount auto parts store for bike parts where you could get any part you need for any bike at a standardized price and there was no hassle or ideological conflict about the economic politics of the industry. Then maintaining a bike, any bike, would be blissfully simple and affordable indeed.
As I write this, however, I am reminded of an instance where I had to order an auto part from ebay after getting one from a discount auto parts store that didn't fit and broke while modifying it to fit. Ironically, the part from ebay was cheaper and fit perfectly; although if I had been unlucky it might not have and I would have ended up buying two more from various sellers before getting a good one.
Dealing with parts-suppliers can make or break the simplicity and affordability of servicing any machine.
Last edited by tandempower; 02-27-15 at 03:33 PM.
02-27-15, 04:42 PM
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To contextualize a bit, I am the one who thinks bikes are simpler machines and it was a bike mechanic in a pro shop who told me that they are finer machines and can therefore get pretty complex. Like I said, I think the bike mechanic might have been defending pride wounded by the idea that I called his job 'simple.' I'm not in the business of putting people down (or up) but things I say get taken that way, as I'm sure happens to everyone. Ego tends to re-interpret things you say as a comment about personal value.
Anyway, I think as simple as bikes are, they can be much more of a headache to work on than they need to be because of proprietary incompatibilities and systems that defy simplicity and ease of service. I was committed to servicing cup-cone bottom bearings, for example, until I found out it's hard to find a bike shop that sells retainer bearings for cheap bikes and I've been told that bike shops will sell mismatched loose bearing sets to people who don't spend enough money at their shops.
This biases my decision to service bottom brackets because I think it will appease the bike shops if I spend the money for sealed bottom bracket cartridge. Now my only worry is that if I don't watch out and spend-up the cost of the BB cartridge I buy, I will end up with a low-quality one that requires frequent replacement until I opt for a higher end one. Instead of just worrying about getting decent parts and keeping costs down by servicing it yourself, bike maintenance becomes about the politics of appeasing business people in the industry.
It takes away from the blissful simplicity of the machine and the liberation from work that offers when you have to think about working more to spend-up bike parts because otherwise you'll be accused of trying to drive people out of business by only replacing simple parts for cheap instead of showering businesses with money to take good care of you.
Ideally, there would be something like a discount auto parts store for bike parts where you could get any part you need for any bike at a standardized price and there was no hassle or ideological conflict about the economic politics of the industry. Then maintaining a bike, any bike, would be blissfully simple and affordable indeed.
As I write this, however, I am reminded of an instance where I had to order an auto part from ebay after getting one from a discount auto parts store that didn't fit and broke while modifying it to fit. Ironically, the part from ebay was cheaper and fit perfectly; although if I had been unlucky it might not have and I would have ended up buying two more from various sellers before getting a good one.
Dealing with parts-suppliers can make or break the simplicity and affordability of servicing any machine.
Anyway, I think as simple as bikes are, they can be much more of a headache to work on than they need to be because of proprietary incompatibilities and systems that defy simplicity and ease of service. I was committed to servicing cup-cone bottom bearings, for example, until I found out it's hard to find a bike shop that sells retainer bearings for cheap bikes and I've been told that bike shops will sell mismatched loose bearing sets to people who don't spend enough money at their shops.
This biases my decision to service bottom brackets because I think it will appease the bike shops if I spend the money for sealed bottom bracket cartridge. Now my only worry is that if I don't watch out and spend-up the cost of the BB cartridge I buy, I will end up with a low-quality one that requires frequent replacement until I opt for a higher end one. Instead of just worrying about getting decent parts and keeping costs down by servicing it yourself, bike maintenance becomes about the politics of appeasing business people in the industry.
It takes away from the blissful simplicity of the machine and the liberation from work that offers when you have to think about working more to spend-up bike parts because otherwise you'll be accused of trying to drive people out of business by only replacing simple parts for cheap instead of showering businesses with money to take good care of you.
Ideally, there would be something like a discount auto parts store for bike parts where you could get any part you need for any bike at a standardized price and there was no hassle or ideological conflict about the economic politics of the industry. Then maintaining a bike, any bike, would be blissfully simple and affordable indeed.
As I write this, however, I am reminded of an instance where I had to order an auto part from ebay after getting one from a discount auto parts store that didn't fit and broke while modifying it to fit. Ironically, the part from ebay was cheaper and fit perfectly; although if I had been unlucky it might not have and I would have ended up buying two more from various sellers before getting a good one.
Dealing with parts-suppliers can make or break the simplicity and affordability of servicing any machine.
Just do it, man. Fiddle more, worry less. The more experience you get fooling around with bikes the easier they will become for you and parts selections will get simpler.
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02-27-15, 04:44 PM
#29
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AHAhahaha, yes, I have to agree with you, Tandem, about the proprietary parts and different standards and all!
I just recently got into the BB debacle myself, retro-fitting my old Klein with a compact crank- and to make matters worse, the Klein has an unusually-sized BB shell (for a road bike) and an unusual spindle length... And there are SO many different BB's these days.... but after wading through some info (thank goodness for the interwebz) I was able to figger[sic] it out- and doing the work was as simple as could be- like ya say, it was mainly just a matter of figuring-out what parts would work.
I( haven't dealt with an LBS in over 25 years.....thank goodness [again] for the web- especially for all those small little hard-to-come-by parts, like loose ball-bearings and the like. No need to be held hostage by a shop....especially one that has a mechanic who makes bicycles out to be nukular[sic] reactors of complexity! [Yeah, maybe for them, where they have to work on 100 different bikes in a week, and some that they've never seen before- but for us, it's easy, because we just have to worry about what we have at the moment).
I've had the same experience with Ebay car parts, too! Anytime I need a COP [coil-on-plug] I ALWAYS buy them from this one seller. I get a set of 8 for less than the price of what Ford wants for one- or what the auto part store wants for 2- and they work better than the expensive ones and last longer!
I do believe a lot of the value in doing one's own work- whether it be on bikes or cars or washing machines, comes from using ingenuity to find out what the problem is, and where to source the parts from, to get good parts at a reasonable price- and no matter what items you're dealing with, until you accumulate a little knowledge of those things, it seems a little tougher than it is- but once you get a basic grasp of such, you can operate like a pro.
I know nothing about washing machines- but I recently fixed my mother's washer, with a $6.50 part [a motor coupling]...and I know that next time, now, I'll know right where to go for a needed part, and how to take the machine apart in a mattert of seconds; and that I can pretty much access and fix anything on that machine. I love it when I can build that level of confidence- it's just another area in which I can be self-sufficient!
I just recently got into the BB debacle myself, retro-fitting my old Klein with a compact crank- and to make matters worse, the Klein has an unusually-sized BB shell (for a road bike) and an unusual spindle length... And there are SO many different BB's these days.... but after wading through some info (thank goodness for the interwebz) I was able to figger[sic] it out- and doing the work was as simple as could be- like ya say, it was mainly just a matter of figuring-out what parts would work.
I( haven't dealt with an LBS in over 25 years.....thank goodness [again] for the web- especially for all those small little hard-to-come-by parts, like loose ball-bearings and the like. No need to be held hostage by a shop....especially one that has a mechanic who makes bicycles out to be nukular[sic] reactors of complexity! [Yeah, maybe for them, where they have to work on 100 different bikes in a week, and some that they've never seen before- but for us, it's easy, because we just have to worry about what we have at the moment).
I've had the same experience with Ebay car parts, too! Anytime I need a COP [coil-on-plug] I ALWAYS buy them from this one seller. I get a set of 8 for less than the price of what Ford wants for one- or what the auto part store wants for 2- and they work better than the expensive ones and last longer!
I do believe a lot of the value in doing one's own work- whether it be on bikes or cars or washing machines, comes from using ingenuity to find out what the problem is, and where to source the parts from, to get good parts at a reasonable price- and no matter what items you're dealing with, until you accumulate a little knowledge of those things, it seems a little tougher than it is- but once you get a basic grasp of such, you can operate like a pro.
I know nothing about washing machines- but I recently fixed my mother's washer, with a $6.50 part [a motor coupling]...and I know that next time, now, I'll know right where to go for a needed part, and how to take the machine apart in a mattert of seconds; and that I can pretty much access and fix anything on that machine. I love it when I can build that level of confidence- it's just another area in which I can be self-sufficient!
02-27-15, 05:54 PM
#30
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How many Ford parts can you put into a Chevy?
One has to applaud the Cubans for being able to keep American cars on the road with a 50 year trade embargo.
The number of parts for my Fiat that I can buy at an ordinary parts store is limited to the fan belt, spark plugs, taillight bulbs, but not headlight bulbs, and perhaps some fabric. Tires only if I'm willing to mount bias ply tires. I suppose one could throw in a few nuts and bolts. Do the bicycle parts I've used to keep my car running count?
Perhaps one of the differences between cars and bicycles is an increased effort by the parts manufacturers (and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] parties) to continue to manufacture parts for older vehicles. Although, even that isn't universal with many parts completely discontinued from all new sources (or at least unavailable in the USA). Try to find a license plate light for a VW Caddy.
02-27-15, 06:09 PM
#31
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Sunbeam made a famous bike (in 1908)with a full chaincase oil bath, serviced by a simple drain and refill. Chain life is almost indefinite in an oil bath
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02-27-15, 06:15 PM
#32
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Ever see any proprietary parts in a car?
How many Ford parts can you put into a Chevy?
One has to applaud the Cubans for being able to keep American cars on the road with a 50 year trade embargo.
The number of parts for my Fiat that I can buy at an ordinary parts store is limited to the fan belt, spark plugs, taillight bulbs, but not headlight bulbs, and perhaps some fabric. Tires only if I'm willing to mount bias ply tires. I suppose one could throw in a few nuts and bolts. Do the bicycle parts I've used to keep my car running count?
Perhaps one of the differences between cars and bicycles is an increased effort by the parts manufacturers (and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] parties) to continue to manufacture parts for older vehicles. Although, even that isn't universal with many parts completely discontinued from all new sources (or at least unavailable in the USA). Try to find a license plate light for a VW Caddy.
How many Ford parts can you put into a Chevy?
One has to applaud the Cubans for being able to keep American cars on the road with a 50 year trade embargo.
The number of parts for my Fiat that I can buy at an ordinary parts store is limited to the fan belt, spark plugs, taillight bulbs, but not headlight bulbs, and perhaps some fabric. Tires only if I'm willing to mount bias ply tires. I suppose one could throw in a few nuts and bolts. Do the bicycle parts I've used to keep my car running count?
Perhaps one of the differences between cars and bicycles is an increased effort by the parts manufacturers (and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] parties) to continue to manufacture parts for older vehicles. Although, even that isn't universal with many parts completely discontinued from all new sources (or at least unavailable in the USA). Try to find a license plate light for a VW Caddy.
You wanna talk proprietary? I have a tractor which was only made for one year. I KNEW it was going to be a bear to get parts for when I bought it, but it was a great deal, and it's a nice tractor- but.... I've become an expert at improvising and modifying parts to work on it. I've even had parts custom-made at a machine shop, cheaper than what the Case-IH dealer wanted for some 20 year-old part.
02-27-15, 08:42 PM
#33
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If (retrofittable) shaft drive is a bad idea for various reasons, what about a sealed-drive chain system? It would be the same idea as a sealed BB but there would be a whole 'chain case' that would bolt onto the side of the bike with a simple connection to, say, and internally-geared hub. What drivetrain could be more plug-and-play than that? Granted it would add weight but for commuters or others who care less about weight, it would be like having a total chain-guard for a drivetrain that never had to be greased or adjusted, and could be replaced with minimal time, effort, and skill when necessary. I'm not saying it would be the ideal bike but for the masses it might be an improvement over many current designs.
02-28-15, 03:54 AM
#34
Rhapsodic Laviathan
Depending on what is is, a car will go in to limp mode.
I suppose those are the car drivers that have never had a timing light. Never tried adjusting points or tappets. Never twisted a distributor body to get it set just right. Never adjusted a clutch, and never set the spark plug gap.
One of the things that is occurring today is the "100,000 mile tune-up".
To achieve that , the cars have more and more electronics, sensors, and computer control, all fine-tuning the engine, as long as the users fit into the box the manufacture intended.
Still, I've had moments when the car stars and runs... one gets across town, turns off the engine, and the pesky "check engine light" comes on. One sensor has failed, and the engine refuses to start (why they don't incorporate a limp mode once the computer determines the sensor fault is beyond me).
If electronic shifting catches on with the bike world, I could imagine a world where the computer would be sophisticated enough to set its own derailleur stops and such. Auto brake adjustment?
Of course, cars usually get their tires balanced... would this be equivalent to truing a bike wheel?
One of the things that is occurring today is the "100,000 mile tune-up".
To achieve that , the cars have more and more electronics, sensors, and computer control, all fine-tuning the engine, as long as the users fit into the box the manufacture intended.
Still, I've had moments when the car stars and runs... one gets across town, turns off the engine, and the pesky "check engine light" comes on. One sensor has failed, and the engine refuses to start (why they don't incorporate a limp mode once the computer determines the sensor fault is beyond me).
If electronic shifting catches on with the bike world, I could imagine a world where the computer would be sophisticated enough to set its own derailleur stops and such. Auto brake adjustment?
Of course, cars usually get their tires balanced... would this be equivalent to truing a bike wheel?
02-28-15, 07:46 PM
#35
Senior Member
One think I'll say about cars: They're built for heavier service than bikes. Of course, they're also HEAVIER. A bike could be built that would go 50,000 miles between tune-ups, but nobody here would want to ride it.
03-02-15, 03:00 PM
#36
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A couple people have told me that bicycles aren't as simple mechanically as cars because cars have plug-and-play parts to replace whereas bikes require more fine-tuning and adjustment. This got me thinking about the idea of shaft-drive bikes, but when I googled it I found that the manufacturers that make such bicycles don't sell the drivetrains as retrofittable components for existing bikes.
Do you know of a shaft drive system that can be bought and shipped as a retrofittable system without shipping the entire bicycle? This seems like a big obstacle to making shaft-drive a readily available option for most people. I would think a lot of people's cycling and maintenance experience would be improved by plug-and-play shaft drive systems?
What do you think? Are there also drawbacks? Why haven't there been retrofittable market options?
Do you know of a shaft drive system that can be bought and shipped as a retrofittable system without shipping the entire bicycle? This seems like a big obstacle to making shaft-drive a readily available option for most people. I would think a lot of people's cycling and maintenance experience would be improved by plug-and-play shaft drive systems?
What do you think? Are there also drawbacks? Why haven't there been retrofittable market options?
Forget the shaft drive and stick with a chain or belt and ride on.......
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My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
03-02-15, 04:43 PM
#37
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03-02-15, 05:06 PM
#38
Banned
I had a Shaft drive in my BMW motorcycle , You pulled the axle out to remove the wheel .
I wouldn't Hold My Breath for the Bicycle industry to make a thru axle Internal gear Hub
which is the only way you would get more than One Gear , unless Pinion wants to make their BB gearbox
with an output shaft, spur gear.
I wouldn't Hold My Breath for the Bicycle industry to make a thru axle Internal gear Hub
which is the only way you would get more than One Gear , unless Pinion wants to make their BB gearbox
with an output shaft, spur gear.
03-02-15, 05:08 PM
#39
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They don't have any money, so they'll probably soon all be driving cars from Malaysia or something
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03-02-15, 05:10 PM
#40
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That's weird. Mine came out with lugnuts. Or maybe they were screws, can't remember for sure. I only ever had to take it off once to change the tire.
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Genesis 49:16-17
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03-02-15, 05:21 PM
#41
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What has been unavailable has been the parts to maintain the old American cars.
What will be interesting is which direction the classic cars will flow once the borders open. Will anybody in the USA buy American cars maintained with homebuilt parts, Russian parts, and Chinese parts? Will the Cubans bring more 50's American Classics to Cuba as cultural icons?
I could imagine Cuban body shops expanding to offer full restoration services to American customers willing to ship cars back and forth to Cuba.
As far as bicycles, anything could be made "standard" if one sells enough of them. The problem occurs with small fly-by-night companies, or even big companies that shift their marketing and fail to support the old stuff. With a derailleur, one may simply buy a new derailleur. But should a blown cone mean rebuilding or replacing the whole wheel?
There have been some shaft drives sold, but not enough of them to really expect continued support.
On the other hand, not everything has external gears. A lot of Sturmey Archer 3 speeds were sold, enough to expect support FOREVER.
Last edited by CliffordK; 03-02-15 at 05:29 PM.
03-02-15, 05:35 PM
#42
Banned
1968 R60 .. They may have changed the removal technique since, 1 nut on the drive side.
very end of the axle, threaded .
and there was a pinch bolt on the left swing arm end, to loosen,
and then you pulled the axle out wth a 'drift pin' inserted in a hole to make a T handle .
havent had the Bike for 30 + years , but still have the Manual..
so I dug it out..
very end of the axle, threaded .
and there was a pinch bolt on the left swing arm end, to loosen,
and then you pulled the axle out wth a 'drift pin' inserted in a hole to make a T handle .
havent had the Bike for 30 + years , but still have the Manual..
so I dug it out..
03-02-15, 07:16 PM
#43
Uber Goober
I had an old Plymouth Volare station wagon, 1978 model. On the front wheels, there was a set of slotted bolts, and you could adjust caster and camber then separate adjustment for toe-in.
Then fast-forward a few years, and I had a 1986 Escort. It didn't have those caster and camber adjustments, it was just made one way, and toe-in was all you could adjust.
I assume that meant they had to make the frame/body more accurately to begin with.
It seems to me that the bicycle industry is pretty much in the Volare-stage and not the Escort-stage. So you've got good reliable high-performance "transmissions", but you may have to adjust things every couple of thousand miles and replace worn parts regularly.
Give 'em twenty years, maybe you'll see something different.
Then fast-forward a few years, and I had a 1986 Escort. It didn't have those caster and camber adjustments, it was just made one way, and toe-in was all you could adjust.
I assume that meant they had to make the frame/body more accurately to begin with.
It seems to me that the bicycle industry is pretty much in the Volare-stage and not the Escort-stage. So you've got good reliable high-performance "transmissions", but you may have to adjust things every couple of thousand miles and replace worn parts regularly.
Give 'em twenty years, maybe you'll see something different.
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03-02-15, 09:46 PM
#44
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It seems to me that the bicycle industry is pretty much in the Volare-stage and not the Escort-stage. So you've got good reliable high-performance "transmissions", but you may have to adjust things every couple of thousand miles and replace worn parts regularly.
Give 'em twenty years, maybe you'll see something different.
Give 'em twenty years, maybe you'll see something different.
But there are many things that have changed over the years. On the old cars, one set the points, set the timing, adjusted the clutch, etc. It is pretty much all automated in the new cars... which is fine as long as all the sensors work. You should still set the spark plug gap though, but even that can be pre-set.
On your bike, one derailleur will fit frames made by hundreds of manufactures, and will work with a number of different wheels, cassettes, and etc. It is hard to pre-set everything as might be done in the auto world where Ford churns out pars that are specific to the Escort.
Electronic shifting could bring a lot of automation into the bike world, but it will never be embraced by all users. Technically one could design a derailleur to dynamically adjust the stops and shifting for perfect shifts every time. But there are still those who choose the cheaper simpler old technology which never will need the batteries replaced or the computer updated.
Even so, things have changed as indexed shifting is almost universally accepted in the bike world today, but didn't exist in the 70's and 80's. Something like a "Cambio Corsa" would be just wicked.
