I-Like-To-Bike

Who was it that posted, "God forbid anybody should have novel or imaginative ideas in the Living Car Free forum "?

Oh right, that was you, have you changed your mind about limitless acceptance of every over-the-top statement someone posts to LCF?

https://www.bikeforums.net/living-car...l#post17709483

tandempower

One-stop shopping is eco-friendly because people only have to park (or get off the bus) once to shop for anything. A concentrated downtown area or mall is similar, insofar as shoppers only park once and shop less often as a result of everything being in one place. One thing I think Walmart has over malls and downtowns is that grocery is combined with other retail, so it's like being able to get your groceries at the mall. That consolidates two buildings into one, which means less buildings and parking lots.


Downward wage pressure is demonized because it cuts into the consumer spending that generates revenues for business and investors. If it didn't, you wouldn't hear so much about it in the news. Notice you never hear commercial media talk about how people can live more prosperously with less spending and consumption by simplifying their lives? That's because the media are funded by business, which is an orgy of people enriching themselves as much as possible, not a culture of selfless saints who put the well-being and happiness of their clientele over their desire to make money.

If government stopped focussing on preventing deflation and instead focussed on ensuring the ability of people to live well during periods of unemployment and low GDP, deflation, recession, and unemployment could occur without suffering. This would remove the fear-pressure to make money, which would make economic labor much more voluntary. E.g. if you don't have to worry about your car getting repossessed when you lose your income because you ride a bike instead of driving, recession is not as beg a threat to you. Then if everyone just takes a pay cut during recession instead some people getting laid off to maintain the salary levels of others, the fear of layoffs is removed and people just shop a little less on their bikes. People accuse me of being a communist when I say things like that but it's just free market economics with more freedom for consumers to mitigate recession with the options available to them.

Roody

I'm not sure about that. Walmart has opportunities to make eco-friendly choices all the time. I recall that they cut back lighting levels in their stores by a fairly small amount, and measurably reduced national energy consumption. They ordered their suppliers to cut down on packaging, and worldwide use of resources dropped a bit. They are pushing organic produce now and farm acreage subjcted to agri-chemicals is going down a bit in many parts of the country.

Maybe Walmart made these changes mainly to cut its own costs (or even as a greenwashing PR effort), but the effect on the environment has been positive nonetheless.

cooker

That's a "have you stopped beating your wife?" sort of question. I have neither stopped nor started granting "limitless acceptance" to every statement. As I've remarked in other threads, I appreciate tandempower, or anybody, proposing new creative ideas, and some of them I agree with, some I don't.

Ironic that you cited that bicycle economics thread. Apparently you forgot that I actually agreed with you that the savings estimates from leaving your car home were grossly inflated.
Hardly an example of "limitless acceptance".

I-Like-To-Bike

I stand corrected you do have a limit on acceptance of some euphemistically described as over-the-top statements. But are willing to dress some up some up with labels as imaginative, novel or creative.

Roody

Speaking logically, limitless rejection of novel ideas is just as indefensible as limitless acceptance. Psychologically, however,some of us are more inclined to acceptance and others are more likely to reject. (I'd say the lines are pretty clearly drawn on this forum.)

This brings up a major purpose of social discussion within a democracy: The accepters and the rejecters tend to balance each other. This can result in more even and realistic judgments of novel ideas, since the truth often lies somwhere between two extremes..

cooker

Except that rural big box stores are often not walkable from home, whereas traditional small town main streets were for some residents (not everybody).



It may well be the case that many low-wage people (and lots of medium to high wage people) would be happier if they lowered their expectations, and lived within their means, instead of acquiring debt or scrambling to pay their bills. However, you still need to make a basic living wage. Beyond that, research suggests that economic disparity is also a powerfully divisive agent, so if the downward pressure on working class wages serves to make other people incredibly rich, it creates great social instability and unrest.

Roody

...and creates new customers and workers for Walmart.

fietsbob

what? the OP picture shows an underground parking garage .. Zoning requires X number of parking spots to open a Store.

Its just under a multi story store not sprawling around a Big Single story Box.

cooker

By locating in a denser urban environment, Walmart will be serving a mixed transportation community - people who drive, bicycle, walk, or take public transport; whereas in rural and suburban areas the vast majority of customers drive. The number of parking spots they will need to satisfy local zoning rules will be far less, even corrected for store sales volume, than in an exurban location.

fietsbob

So you read the Toronto building code?

cooker

I didn’t research the exact numbers as I assumed it was self-evident. However, since apparently it isn’t, here you go:

The Georgia Av urban Walmart in Washington DC that Roody mentioned in the OP has 350 parking spots for a 100,000 square foot retail space:
5 Surprises At The New Big City Walmart In Washington, D.C. | Fast Company | Business + Innovation

A typical large exurban Walmart store has 6 parking spots per thousand square foot retail, so it would be 600 parking spots for a store this size if it wasn’t downtown:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=kz0...page&q&f=false (page 553).

tandempower

I'd like to distinguish between 'big box' and 'one-stop shopping.' Dollar General and Family Dollar stores are examples of one-stop shopping in a smaller 'box' than a big-box Walmart or other one-stop shop.

One-stop shopping promotes car-free living and/or reduces driving by making it possible for people to do all or the majority of their shopping with one trip, whether that trip takes place via bike, transit, or driving.

The smaller-box big-box shops have, impressively, stimulated Walmart into creating a line of smaller-box stores. If these small-box one-stop shops are distributed every few miles in rural areas, they could indeed make it possible for more people to bike or walk to shop instead of driving. They could also just shorten the drive between home and shopping.

The problem is that "basic living wage" currently factors in driving costs. If the invisible hand of the free market is supposed to be the determining factor in whether ubiquitous personal driving continues or gives way to more transit and biking, then downward pressure on working class wages is going to be one stimulus for trading in driving for other transportation, however 'unrestful' some people may get because of it.

We have already seen some competitive economic pressure to choose expensive personal media over driving expenses. Sure, some people would feel less 'instability and unrest' if their budget would afford them all the things they want to buy plus a car to drive around in but that's not the basis of economics. The whole point of money is that no one has unlimited quantities of it, so budget-limitations at every level promote sacrifices.

Some people will sacrifice a domicile for a car because at least they can sleep in their car, whereas they can't drive a house or apartment. This is a very harsh level of demand-inelasticity to consider when predicting the role of the invisible hand in stimulating car-free transportation choices. Hopefully, car-free living will become fathomable and comfortable enough to the general population that future recessions will result in more people giving up driving than going homeless.

That would be a pretty good indicator that car-free living has become a viable option, though it would be nicer to see it grow without the economic push of recession as well. Non-recessionary growth in car-free living reduces the stigma of associating car-free living with poverty/desperation, I think.

And/or other affordable one-stop shops.

Zedoo

2000 workers became unemployed overnight.
I-Team: Wal-Mart stores that were suddenly closed for plumbing issues haven't sought permits - Story | abcactionnews.com | Tampa Bay News, Weather, Sports, Things To Do | WFTS-TV

Dahon.Steve

+1

Walmart was the 99 cent store and this is where they made their profit for years. Now that every town has a dozen 99 cent stores, who needs Walmart anymore? This is the reason why Walmart is trying to change its identity by going upscale but people aren't buying because they are still branded as cheap place to shop.

zonatandem

'Quality' is NOT a WallyWorld slogan.
Junk at high price . . . you get what you pay for.

cooker

A main street strip of different shops can do that too. It also depends on how close the homes are and what the street or transit facilities are like.

The free market is a myth. Walmart or any large corporation has the power to distort the market in various ways, such through wangling tax or zoning concessions, or getting the public sector to pay to build roads to their location or whatever. The driving public are also subsidized in multiple ways. Removing subsidies so as to make driving personal vehicles or operating a rural power centre more expensive (which it is, people just don't see it or pay full price up front) - in other works making people pay the full price of their lifestyle - would be a more rational way to utilize the free market to encourage healthier choices for individual and society.

billyymc

Who gets to define what's necessary?

Walmart has worked hard to lower the cost of all manner of products, not just necessary products. At least part of the cost reduction is achieved by lowering the quality. The result is stupid low prices on stupid low quality items. The prices entice people to buy crappy stuff they don't need, then throw it out when it breaks.

If Walmart really wanted to go car free they would provide a service whereby a person could buy something, and Walmart would deliver it directly to the landfill, completely bypassing the need to drive there and haul the item home.

Roody

Is that sarcasm?

gerv 

And think of all the money they waste on employee health insurance...

Rowan

Oddlly, I make a point of visiting WalMart when I am in Canada because they have things I cannot get at other places, either at all or at the price.

Examples are decent woollen work socks. The last three Casio watches I have bought have all come from WalMart at around $20 each; I really like Casio as a brand as as a durable watch (I work in an orchard, and need waterproof and robust); and the sunglass overlays for my spectacles fit perfectly... and despite going to other places, I could not source them, even at double the price.

The food and drink and other groceries are the same as you'd buy elsewhere. The clothing is OK. We've bought travel bags are a bargain price that are still going strong 10 years later. There's even bike stuff that we've bought. And casual shoes.

Yeah, a lot of the stuff on its shelves is junk. But that's up to us to make a judgment on their value and longevity.

As I recall the history of WalMart, the business started out as a small, single one in Arkansas (gee, it's not as though it had its genesis in NY, LA, Chicago or some other economic powerhouse of a city back in the early 1960s and morphed on Day Two into what it is today). Walton had the vision and followed through with it. Those mom and pop operators back then had the same opportunities...

billyymc

Rowan - I forget if you are in the US or not, but if you are try Darn Tough Socks. They are a great product with a great guarantee and made in Vermont. No, they aren't cheap, but they will probably outlast the Walmart product by quite a long shot.

There are tons of alternatives to Walmart. They just aren't as cheap. Cheap comes at a cost.

Roody

Actually, no.
Read more: The Biggest Myth About Walmart - Business Insider

I-Like-To-Bike

Sam Walton had vision as well as creative, independent, imaginative and novel ideas grounded on reality that he applied rather than posting them to the internet, BS'ing in a bar or dormitory room, or writing letters to the editor.

Application of his vision/novel ideas to the real world were not dependent on everyone else agreeing with him that pigs can fly because he said so.

Roody

Correct, AFAIK. But as a consumer, why would I give a flying fig about Sam Walton's vision--or rather some idealized, mythologized, pie-in-the-sky origin story about his vision? I want good products at a good price, and I want to be very careful about allowing one corporation to dominate the market to such an extent that it can do whatever it wants with/to customers, suppliers, employees,competitors, and the environment.

I don't shun Walmart, but shop there occasionally. I am just very cautious and glad that journalists and activists keep an eye on them also.