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  1. #1
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Lovin' the Car-free Life in Seville!

    Check out this great video!

    https://youtu.be/1tvYlUH9YRo
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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I'm so jealous! What a beautiful city, and 70,000 people on bikes every day...

    Seville went from 0% modal share to 9% in just four years. Naysayers on this forum are always saying that such changes are impossible. Suck on this naysayers!


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I'm so jealous! What a beautiful city, and 70,000 people on bikes every day...

    Seville went from 0% modal share to 9% in just four years. Naysayers on this forum are always saying that such changes are impossible. Suck on this naysayers!
    Agreed! I'm so lucky because I just happened to be living here--I was one of just a handful of transport cyclists in Seville at the time--and the city was suddenly transformed over a short period of time before my very eyes. I'd seen a few people riding around with little placards on their bikes that demanded that bike lanes be built, and I thought there was no way that would ever happen, that the powers that be would never go for it, but those people never gave up on their dream.
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    Perspective is funny. Here in Eugene, we're lamenting the fact that bicycle use has fallen to about what is being celebrated in Seville as a smashing success.

    Oddly, our decline correlates with expanded, but inferior, bikey infrastructure. (In fairness, it also correlates with the shooting death of one of our few traffic cops, which led to a complete loss of all traffic law enforcement until recently - state grants are incentivizing traffic enforcement programs this year.) Looking at what was shown in the video, Seville has built a system that will likely self-limit somewhere shy of 15%.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Looking at what was shown in the video, Seville has built a system that will likely self-limit somewhere shy of 15%.
    Nonsense. There's still plenty of room for more bikes here, despite the large numbers of people who've taken up transport cycling since the protected cycleways were built. The only real impediments to further growth--pessimists and so-called "vehicular cycling" advocates--have been so completely discredited that no one listens to them anymore, so the sky's the limit as far as the growth of cycling in this city is concerned.
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  6. #6
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Perspective is funny. Here in Eugene, we're lamenting the fact that bicycle use has fallen to about what is being celebrated in Seville as a smashing success.

    Oddly, our decline correlates with expanded, but inferior, bikey infrastructure. (In fairness, it also correlates with the shooting death of one of our few traffic cops, which led to a complete loss of all traffic law enforcement until recently - state grants are incentivizing traffic enforcement programs this year.) Looking at what was shown in the video, Seville has built a system that will likely self-limit somewhere shy of 15%.
    You bike people are so depressing and unrealistic. 15% modal share is huge! 9% is fantastic! More would be nice, but it's important to be both realistic and optimistic when setting goals. After all, we're starting out at very close to zero percent bikes in most cities of the world.

    A goal that makes sense to me is

    • 50% public transit
    • 25% walking
    • 10% bike
    • 15% other (including cars, taxis, car shares, etc.)


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  7. #7
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    You bike people are so depressing and unrealistic.
    Not sure whether to or
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    Ride what and in what manner pleases you. Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind. srsly.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    You bike people are so depressing and unrealistic. 15% modal share is huge! 9% is fantastic! More would be nice, but it's important to be both realistic and optimistic when setting goals. After all, we're starting out at very close to zero percent bikes in most cities of the world.

    A goal that makes sense to me is

    • 50% public transit
    • 25% walking
    • 10% bike
    • 15% other (including cars, taxis, car shares, etc.)
    Again, it's that perspective thing. I lived for many years where bikes outnumbered cars on the road by a large factor, so 9% and 15% seem like a return to the dark ages. You've been living where, historically, no one rides. Therefore, you see those numbers as huge.

    Having been there for all extremes and most of the middle ground, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between low bike usage, like 10-20%, and situations where bikes outnumber cars. At the low end, cyclists are routinely marginalized (often by overly narrow spaces and by traffic control devices that create substantial time issues) and harassed. As bikes close in on majority status, motorists realize that resistance is futile and things get a lot better. Much to my surprise, it is possible to lose this utopian situation.

    I do find it odd that in a nation full of people who are literally killing themselves by standing still, your ideal transit mix is nearly two-thirds sedentary. Maybe for a retirement community your mix would be a reasonable goal, but for a city it's a recipe for continued poor health. I find that to be depressing in the extreme. Dream a little and see the possibilities.

  9. #9
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Again, it's that perspective thing. I lived for many years where bikes outnumbered cars on the road by a large factor, so 9% and 15% seem like a return to the dark ages. You've been living where, historically, no one rides. Therefore, you see those numbers as huge.

    Having been there for all extremes and most of the middle ground, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between low bike usage, like 10-20%, and situations where bikes outnumber cars. At the low end, cyclists are routinely marginalized (often by overly narrow spaces and by traffic control devices that create substantial time issues) and harassed. As bikes close in on majority status, motorists realize that resistance is futile and things get a lot better. Much to my surprise, it is possible to lose this utopian situation.

    I do find it odd that in a nation full of people who are literally killing themselves by standing still, your ideal transit mix is nearly two-thirds sedentary. Maybe for a retirement community your mix would be a reasonable goal, but for a city it's a recipe for continued poor health. I find that to be depressing in the extreme. Dream a little and see the possibilities.
    Sorry, I really didn't mean that you're too gloomy. But why do you disparage amazing results like those seen in Seville. Maybe it isn't California-cool, but going from dozens of riders to thousands is very impressive, even by Davis standards--a city that's been going the opposite direction for decades now.


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  10. #10
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Helmets, jerseys, clipless shoes, carbon fiber? They forgot to mention these essentials.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    You bike people are so depressing and unrealistic. 15% modal share is huge! 9% is fantastic! More would be nice, but it's important to be both realistic and optimistic when setting goals. After all, we're starting out at very close to zero percent bikes in most cities of the world.

    A goal that makes sense to me is

    • 50% public transit
    • 25% walking
    • 10% bike
    • 15% other (including cars, taxis, car shares, etc.)
    This is where we're at at the moment. The 9% figure used in the video is the share of mechanized trips. Still, from 0% to 6% cycling modal share ain't too shabby. As you can see, a lot of people walk here. We need to build a couple more subway and tram lines (we only have one of each at the moment) and restrict car access to the city center if we're going to cut down further on the number of people driving.



    • 22% public transit
    • 37% walking
    • 6% bike
    • 35% car


    TEMS - The EPOMM Modal Split Tool
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    You bike people are so depressing and unrealistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Sorry, I really didn't mean that you're too gloomy.
    No, I'm sure saying I (or some tribe of "bike people" that seems to include me) am "depressing and unrealistic" means you think I'm not gloomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    But why do you disparage amazing results like those seen in Seville. Maybe it isn't California-cool, but going from dozens of riders to thousands is very impressive, even by Davis standards--a city that's been going the opposite direction for decades now.
    Perhaps you should check your facts before you make such silly remarks. As I've stated here many times, Davis has only a small fraction of its former mode share, but it's been recovering for the past decade. Here's the US Census ACS bike commuter numbers ((2007,8,9 are three-year data, others are one-year):

    2007: 14.3%
    2008: 15.7%
    2009: 16.8%
    2010: 22.1%
    2011: 16.6%
    2012: 19.1%
    2013: 24.5%


    Note that that is a larger increase than Seville. Perhaps you should reconsider your disparaging remarks.

    Also, the closest thing to a disparaging remark about what was done in Seville is to predict that their infrastructure will self-limit modal share at about 15%. It's got quite a few very narrow pinch points shown even in the promo video and the two-way nature is somewhat suspect.

    As you've been asked before, please avoid name-calling and mischaracterizations of what other people have written, especially when you disagree. That sort of aggression keeps this sub-forum dead.

  13. #13
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    No, I'm sure saying I (or some tribe of "bike people" that seems to include me) am "depressing and unrealistic" means you think I'm not gloomy.



    Perhaps you should check your facts before you make such silly remarks. As I've stated here many times, Davis has only a small fraction of its former mode share, but it's been recovering for the past decade. Here's the US Census ACS bike commuter numbers ((2007,8,9 are three-year data, others are one-year):

    2007: 14.3%
    2008: 15.7%
    2009: 16.8%
    2010: 22.1%
    2011: 16.6%
    2012: 19.1%
    2013: 24.5%


    Note that that is a larger increase than Seville. Perhaps you should reconsider your disparaging remarks.

    Also, the closest thing to a disparaging remark about what was done in Seville is to predict that their infrastructure will self-limit modal share at about 15%. It's got quite a few very narrow pinch points shown even in the promo video and the two-way nature is somewhat suspect.

    As you've been asked before, please avoid name-calling and mischaracterizations of what other people have written, especially when you disagree. That sort of aggression keeps this sub-forum dead.
    Again, I apologize for my silly remark. I did not intend it as a personal insult, and I don't think I called you any names, but I can see in retrospect that it was reasonable that you took it as insulting. At any rate, my overall impression of you is that you're far from gloomy.

    Thanks for the update on Davis. I'm glad they're making an impressive recovery. An increase in share by 11% is remarkable, and it sounds even better to say that this represents almost a doubling in the amount of bikes on the streets!


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #14
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    I'm glad to hear Davis is back on the right track. In the spirit of keeping this thread positive (as opposed to harrumphing, engaging in one-upsmanship and making gloomy comments of the "Seville has built a system that will likely self-limit somewhere shy of 15%" variety, I offer this uplifting video about another university town, Groningen:

    Last edited by Ekdog; 04-16-15 at 11:13 PM.
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    Okay, maybe it will max out somewhat above 15%. After all, Oulu, Finland, with similar infrastructure, is at 22%. However, in 1962, before they put this infrastructure in, they had a 44% modal share for bikes. I'm just pointing out that if you restrict any mode to a very confined space you will at some point bump up against those space constraints.

    That's neither positive nor negative; it's a very real factor to consider when evaluating proposed or implemented infrastructure.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Okay, maybe it will max out somewhat above 15%. After all, Oulu, Finland, with similar infrastructure, is at 22%. However, in 1962, before they put this infrastructure in, they had a 44% modal share for bikes. I'm just pointing out that if you restrict any mode to a very confined space you will at some point bump up against those space constraints.

    That's neither positive nor negative; it's a very real factor to consider when evaluating proposed or implemented infrastructure.
    I assume you think our sidewalks are bursting to the seams and about to "max out" because of our 37% walking modal share. And if we tore them out and forced all of those pedestrians to "take the lane" (walk out in the middle of the street) we'd be on the right track, right? Thanks for giving me something to laugh about on a Saturday afternoon.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Rode out to a local village this morning and found they're building a lovely new bike lane! It's only about half finished, but once they've completed it, it'll connect this fair city with the villages of Camas and Santiponce. Hooray!

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2S...ew?usp=sharing
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  18. #18
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    I do find it odd that in a nation full of people who are literally killing themselves by standing still, your ideal transit mix is nearly two-thirds sedentary. Maybe for a retirement community your mix would be a reasonable goal, but for a city it's a recipe for continued poor health. I find that to be depressing in the extreme. Dream a little and see the possibilities.
    Public transit involves a lot more exercise than driving. You walk to and from the bus station, up and down the subway stairs and so on, plus you carry anything you buy, and perhaps a briefcase or computer, and if it's crowded you often end up standing.
    Last edited by cooker; 04-18-15 at 01:19 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Public transit involves a lot more exercise than driving. You walk to and from the bus station, up and down the subway stairs and so on, plus you carry anything you buy, and perhaps a briefcase or computer, and if it's crowded you often end up standing.
    Good point. It's also unreasonable to expect people to walk everywhere because distances are often too great, so the ideal mix involves walking or cycling to the bus stop or the train or underground station.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    We need to build a couple more subway and tram lines (we only have one of each at the moment)
    I looked at the public transit options and this is probably more important in the long run for people to go carfree.

    1. Expanding the Metro -- This is key and will be very costly because Seville has an underground Metro line. It's 11 miles long and I can just imagine how much was spent. However, you don't need to have an underground lMetro. All that's needed is removing car lanes giving a lightrail line it's own right of way. I can see they started this but it needs to be expanded.

    Bus -- This is what impressed me the most. They have bus routes that cover the entire city. You're never more than a mile from a bus line. The vehicles are well maintained but I didn't see any bike racks. Service does end after 1 - 2 in the morning.

    Overall, it would be easy to live carfree in Seville. Sell your vehicle and find a place to live within 1 mile of the Metro and you're carfree for life.

    Oh, I almost forgot, use the new bike lanes too!
    Last edited by Dahon.Steve; 04-18-15 at 11:07 PM.

  21. #21
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Okay, maybe it will max out somewhat above 15%. After all, Oulu, Finland, with similar infrastructure, is at 22%. However, in 1962, before they put this infrastructure in, they had a 44% modal share for bikes. I'm just pointing out that if you restrict any mode to a very confined space you will at some point bump up against those space constraints.

    That's neither positive nor negative; it's a very real factor to consider when evaluating proposed or implemented infrastructure.
    What is this concept of infrastructure maxing out? I never heard about it and would like to know more.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    What is this concept of infrastructure maxing out? I never heard about it and would like to know more.
    I watched a number of "Amterdam" videos on Youtube and it appears they are about 30% of capacity on their bike paths in certain locations. I suspect they woud reach capacity of 75% of the entire population were on the bke paths.

    However, if such a probem did happen the major highways and streets would be empty and soon a good portion of those roads would be converted to bike paths. Again, this is very far into the future for Amsterdam, I'm sure they are not the least concerned.

    Using Google street level view, the numbers on Seville bike path are quite small. They don't have to worry about over crowding for the next 100 years! LOL.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
    I looked at the public transit options and this is probably more important in the long run for people to go carfree.

    1. Expanding the Metro -- This is key and will be very costly because Seville has an underground Metro line. It's 11 miles long and I can just imagine how much was spent. However, you don't need to have an underground lMetro. All that's needed is removing car lanes giving a lightrail line it's own right of way. I can see they started this but it needs to be expanded.

    Bus -- This is what impressed me the most. They have bus routes that cover the entire city. You're never more than a mile from a bus line. The vehicles are well maintained but I didn't see any bike racks. Service does end after 1 - 2 in the morning.

    Overall, it would be easy to live carfree in Seville. Sell your vehicle and find a place to live within 1 mile of the Metro and you're carfree for life.

    Oh, I almost forgot, use the new bike lanes too!
    You live thousands of miles away and you've come to the same conclusions many of us who live here have!

    You're right, the underground was expensive and it took them ages to build it, but it's been very successful (although the network of bike lanes cost far less and move a lot more people). And you're spot on about lightrail. Expanding it would be far less costly than building another subway line. Unfortunately, lots of people here look upon subways as being more glamorous. Strange, I know, but they want to have what the folks in bigger cities have.
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