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World's Worse Traffic Jam.

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World's Worse Traffic Jam.

Old 10-12-15, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Oh come on. This is apples-to-oranges when comparing China to America. In China the government is busy constructing new cities, While in America we have already begun the long process of deconstructing cities. You won't see many pictures of congested traffic around Detroit or Baltimore will you?!?!? In 50 years ALL American cities could be under deconstruction as well.
I think 100 years ago, America was facing some of the issues of rapid economic growth that China is facing today: rapid industrialization, population movement to cities, and the desire to quickly attain the comforts and conveniences of modern life--especially CARS. Unfortunately for China, they are approaching this at a time when we know that such unrestrained growth isn't possible. There's no way the world can survive a billion gasoline powered cars in China, a billion more in India, and another billion more in other rapidly developing countries around the world. They're going to have to build in some other way--electric cars? high speed rail? "Matrix" type cybernetics? Who knows?
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Old 10-12-15, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
I know NASA folk here in TX, they have been in my home and we have fed them in my kitchen.
There is Zero Fantasy in what they are up to, but they do provide interesting and realistic conversations on what's up next in terms of space exploration.
NASA has brought my profession of Project Management to it's most complex and sublime expression of real accomplishment.

None of your soft silly fantasies would cut it for a moment in my kitchen, or anywhere else where competent folk work on real projects.

-Bandera
It's just not possible to have content-based discussion with you. Your reasoning boils down to NASA people ate in your kitchen and someone else's ideas don't cut it 'in your kitchen.' Presumably this is because your kitchen is 'up to code,' and if the same NASA people ate in my kitchen, the things we talked about would be fantasy because my kitchen isn't up to code. Complete ad hom logic-free reasoning.

Originally Posted by kickstart
And what about all the displaced people who once were employed doing those service jobs?
The whole crux of any economic-cultural shifts is that benefits structures, like retirement, have to change to accommodate new choices. If they don't, the lack of benefits work to discourage people from making such choices. You are making a circular argument, that the loss of benefits is a problem with the choice, instead of recognizing that the criteria for currently achieving retirement benefits incentivizes one choice over others.

Originally Posted by wphamilton
The allure of decompressing with less-demanding work wears off quickly when your time brings in a tenth as much.
So what you're saying is that the rat race is worth maintaining because of the huge income it makes possible for some people by having everyone commute across town from poor neighborhoods to affluent ones? Is there any other possible solution you can imagine that allows everyone to continue the crosstown commuting without motor traffic getting out of hand?

Originally Posted by Machka
Very simply ...

1) Your idea is not offensive. It's just not desirable. At all.
'Desirable' is relative. All you're really doing here is asserting that you have an opinion and it's strong. You're not explaining anything about the basis for why you desire one thing and not another.

2) I prefer the system we've got now where people acquire education, training, skills, and experience in a particular field or fields of their choice ... and then work in those fields, or related fields as desired. Freedom to make individual choices.
People are free but employers don't respect that freedom. You can't go to an employer and say you want to work mondays and thursdays from 7 to 1 and then tell your principal you're only going to teach on tuesdays and wednesdays because you've decided to diversify your economic responsibilities by taking on mixed work. Well, you COULD but I doubt your managers would accept it.

If someone wants to be a doctor and acquires the education to become a doctor, that person should be free to be a doctor without being required to spend 2 days a week collecting rubbish.
Is the person free not to take the trash out at home? Is the person free not to push their own shopping cart at the supermarket? We all perform labor that is outside our educational skillset because it's necessary. No one complains that their freedom is being curtailed by it because it's just part of life.

If a person prefers to collect rubbish ... that person acquires those skills and is free to get a job in that area without being forced to be a doctor 2 days week.
I'm not forced to read nonsensical reasoning about freedom vs force for the sake of squelching reasonable discussion about how to use economic reform to solve transportation problems but I end up doing it anyway because it is the response I get. My free choice would be to have you and/or other posters respond with real logistical reasoning about how to reduce crosstown traffic but instead I get responses that boil down to, "people don't want this and you're forcing them into things they don't want." I'm sure the exact same arguments were made against the abolition of slavery, "free people don't want to work in the fields and aboliting slavery FORCES them to."
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Old 10-12-15, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Is the person free not to take the trash out at home? Is the person free not to push their own shopping cart at the supermarket? We all perform labor that is outside our educational skillset because it's necessary. No one complains that their freedom is being curtailed by it because it's just part of life.
If you don't want to do those things ... get a maid. Easy-peasy.


Originally Posted by tandempower
It's just not possible to have content-based discussion with you.
Have you not figured this out yet?

Last edited by Machka; 10-12-15 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 10-12-15, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
It's just not possible to have content-based discussion with you.
The key to a "content-based discussion" is Content, your "arguments" are pure fantasy with nothing to "discuss".

-Bandera
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Old 10-12-15, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
So what you're saying is that the rat race is worth maintaining because of the huge income it makes possible for some people by having everyone commute across town from poor neighborhoods to affluent ones? Is there any other possible solution you can imagine that allows everyone to continue the crosstown commuting without motor traffic getting out of hand?
I'm saying that it's not in the interest of the individual who would be splitting his time. I've tried this, one or two days weekends retail and weekdays a professional job. It's a real job, there are stresses and pressures, it's not like taking time off to decompress. Most people work retail jobs because they need the paycheck.

There are a number of alternatives in transporting people to work, some more disruptive than others. Systemic changes in employment to reduce commutes is probably unwise and unworkable. You're putting the cart before the horse.
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Old 10-12-15, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I'm saying that it's not in the interest of the individual who would be splitting his time. I've tried this, one or two days weekends retail and weekdays a professional job. It's a real job, there are stresses and pressures, it's not like taking time off to decompress. Most people work retail jobs because they need the paycheck.

There are a number of alternatives in transporting people to work, some more disruptive than others. Systemic changes in employment to reduce commutes is probably unwise and unworkable. You're putting the cart before the horse.
+1

I too have been in the same situation where I have worked a professional job as well as other, I suppose you might call them "blue collar" types of jobs. And yes, each has its own stresses and pressures. It's actually rather tiring going back and forth between the two. There were a few months where I was working 4 different jobs at the same time. That was chaos!
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Old 10-12-15, 07:36 AM
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In answer to this, from the original post ...

Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I believe the next generation will have to think about career selection and job location when determining their choice of college major. Those who can have a good paying career without the hassle of a gridlock commute will have a far greater quality of life.
https://www.bikeforums.net/living-car...line-life.html
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Old 10-12-15, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I'm saying that it's not in the interest of the individual who would be splitting his time. I've tried this, one or two days weekends retail and weekdays a professional job. It's a real job, there are stresses and pressures, it's not like taking time off to decompress. Most people work retail jobs because they need the paycheck.

There are a number of alternatives in transporting people to work, some more disruptive than others. Systemic changes in employment to reduce commutes is probably unwise and unworkable. You're putting the cart before the horse.
I think a lot depends on how the work is managed. Let's say you had the responsibility of going to a local store one or two days a week and stocking the shelves with boxes of items from the back. Let's say you have some scheduling flexibility when you show up and you've been trained and authorized to do this work so there aren't any pressures on you. You get paid a fixed amount so no need to punch a time card. It's just like having chores at home, except you do the chores at a business.

Originally Posted by Machka
+1

I too have been in the same situation where I have worked a professional job as well as other, I suppose you might call them "blue collar" types of jobs. And yes, each has its own stresses and pressures. It's actually rather tiring going back and forth between the two. There were a few months where I was working 4 different jobs at the same time. That was chaos!
Content. Reasoning. How do you manage it with others but not me?

Maid? What if I don't want a maid? What if I do but I can't afford maid service?
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Old 10-12-15, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
The key to a "content-based discussion" is Content, your "arguments" are pure fantasy with nothing to "discuss".

-Bandera
And yet you spend a huge amount of time discussing it.

Have you ever considered that you could just skip discussions that are of no interest to you? Is there no thought of just ignoring somebody when you don't respect their writings? For you and others on this forum, it's a case of "OMG...somebody on the internet is WRONG!!!" followed by fierce typing.

I think I would be interested in following a thread started by you, if you ever had the desire to start one. But if I wasn't interested, I'm able just to pass it by without comment.
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Old 10-12-15, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
....

There are a number of alternatives in transporting people to work, some more disruptive than others. Systemic changes in employment to reduce commutes is probably unwise and unworkable. You're putting the cart before the horse.
It seems like a feasible way to reduce crosstown commuting traffic would be to institute changes in land use patterns that would make it possible for more people to live in a desired type of housing close to their workplace. This would require more blending of social classes also, which would be desirable.

This type of zoning or land use change is sometimes difficult to implement. And once implemented, it might take years before a positive change is seen. But it is possible, and the sooner started, the sooner done.
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Last edited by Roody; 10-12-15 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 10-12-15, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
It seems like a feasible way to reduce crosstown commuting traffic would be to institute changes in land use patterns that would make it possible for more people to live in a desired type of housing close to their workplace. This would require more blending of social classes also, which would be desirable.

This type of zoning or land use change is sometimes difficult to implement. And once implemented, it might take years before a positive change is seen. But it is possible, and the sooner started, the sooner done.
I can't dredge up where, but I believe this is already being experimented with. With some success if my recollection is to be trusted. Small steps, but zoning changes and deliberate developments to shorten commutes. Maybe it was one of the large high-tech companies in California.
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Old 10-12-15, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
But if I wasn't interested, I'm able just to pass it by without comment.
Really?
You seem unable to resist comment on every other thread and response in LCF, as well as taking a chiding tone to tell others how to post as if this sub-forum is your personal purview to thought-police.
It's not.


-Bandera
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Old 10-12-15, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I can't dredge up where, but I believe this is already being experimented with. With some success if my recollection is to be trusted. Small steps, but zoning changes and deliberate developments to shorten commutes. Maybe it was one of the large high-tech companies in California.
Yes, I think this has been tried in a number of places. Even where I live, there are moves to place new commercial, industrial, and residential development close together in "infill" areas, instead of perpetuating the long-standing practice of moving new development further from the city core in a pattern of ever-expanding sprawl.
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Old 10-12-15, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Yes, I think this has been tried in a number of places. Even where I live, there are moves to place new commercial, industrial, and residential development close together in "infill" areas, instead of perpetuating the long-standing practice of moving new development further from the city core in a pattern of ever-expanding sprawl.
Here in Washington mixed use zoning has become the norm, and makes sense. Having skilled professionals split their time between their profession and service jobs is just fanciful nonsense.
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Old 10-12-15, 02:28 PM
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My idea is to have everyone live in their own little self sustaining bubble world with institutionally arranged marriages for prosperity.
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Old 10-12-15, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
My idea is to have everyone live in their own little self sustaining bubble world with institutionally arranged marriages for prosperity.
Finally, something realistic!
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Old 10-12-15, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Here in Washington mixed use zoning has become the norm, and makes sense. Having skilled professionals split their time between their profession and service jobs is just fanciful nonsense.
+1 to both sentences.

Mixed use zoning has also been used several places I've lived as well.

And as for having skilled professionals split their time between their profession and service jobs ... it is, fortunately, fanciful nonsense because that would be a complete and utter nightmare. A thing of bad futuristic sci-fi shows.

If people want to take on two or more different jobs, and can arrange their schedules to do so, as I have done in the past, that's fine. In fact, I would even suggest taking on a part-time retail job at this time of year going into Christmas in order to save some money for a nice holiday or whatever you like. Lots of people do just that.

But living in a world where we're forced to work here for 3 days a week and there for 2 days a week by some law or something ... nightmarish futuristic sci-fi show material. What a dark and depressing world that would be.
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Old 10-12-15, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower

Content. Reasoning. How do you manage it with others but not me?

Maid? What if I don't want a maid? What if I do but I can't afford maid service?
Let's reason together. You don't need maid service. Just ask a lawyer, doctor, car mechanic, aerospace engineer, or some other skilled professional to provide "free maid services" and clean your toilets , wash your dishes and cut you grass for you, all for free of charge. According to your reasoning and your logic all those skilled professionals are filthy rich, evil and have too much money and they enjoy too many nice things in life, so why not force them to do dirty jobs to humble them and make them more spiritual ??.. Does that sound reasonable to you ??
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Old 10-12-15, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
My idea is to have everyone live in their own little self sustaining bubble world with institutionally arranged marriages for prosperity.
A place where a car-free man is only allowed to marry a car-free women so they can reproduce and pass their car-free genes and produce and entire race of car-free people.
TPs utopia.
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Old 10-12-15, 04:53 PM
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At age 82, I don't give a hoot!
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Old 10-12-15, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Mixed use zoning has also been used several places I've lived as well.
It is a good idea independently of mixed-job scheduling.

And as for having skilled professionals split their time between their profession and service jobs ... it is, fortunately, fanciful nonsense because that would be a complete and utter nightmare. A thing of bad futuristic sci-fi shows.
Don't be ridiculous. If I am a teacher or doctor or lawyer and I want to do other work, I should be able to without my professional or personal reputation being slaughtered for not conforming to standards that push people to maximize their effort and earning on utilizing their skill of highest value. There are more trained professionals in existence than demand for professional services so it only does good for professionals to work less at their professions and engage in other activities, paid or unpaid. I only suggest the idea that they take over local jobs near their homes to reduce the need for workers to commute across town adding to motor-congestion.

If people want to take on two or more different jobs, and can arrange their schedules to do so, as I have done in the past, that's fine. In fact, I would even suggest taking on a part-time retail job at this time of year going into Christmas in order to save some money for a nice holiday or whatever you like. Lots of people do just that.

But living in a world where we're forced to work here for 3 days a week and there for 2 days a week by some law or something ... nightmarish futuristic sci-fi show material. What a dark and depressing world that would be.
Why do you always assume I'm interested in forcing people to do things by law? What you always seem to deny is that current popular 'choices' aren't completely free. As in the example I gave you about a teacher going to her/his principal and informing them that they plan to reduce their teaching to two days a week, they would get fired. People are offered jobs with full time schedules 'take it or leave it.' They are not free to choose how much or how little to work or when because managers plan jobs as packages that they won't modify in order to work with employees' wishes to exercise their freedom.

What a dark and depressing world it is where business culture has been evolving for centuries yet people are still not free to design their own work schedules, performing whatever forms of work they please, without having to fit into culturally normative job descriptions and occupational structures.

Here's the thing, though, Machka. If you call an idea for innovation dark and depressing, you make yourself out to be a happy well-adjusted person, but if I argue the other position and call some idea that has materialized into the present as dark and depressing, you accuse me of being unhappy and maladjusted. You are simply biased in favor of the status quo against prospective innovations.

Originally Posted by wolfchild
Let's reason together. You don't need maid service. Just ask a lawyer, doctor, car mechanic, aerospace engineer, or some other skilled professional to provide "free maid services" and clean your toilets , wash your dishes and cut you grass for you, all for free of charge. According to your reasoning and your logic all those skilled professionals are filthy rich, evil and have too much money and they enjoy too many nice things in life, so why not force them to do dirty jobs to humble them and make them more spiritual ??.. Does that sound reasonable to you ??
I do my own labor, for the most part and I have no interest in having others do it for me, paid or unpaid. My point to Machka was that her suggestion to hire a maid if I don't want to clean is a cop out. If I don't want to hire a maid or can't, I still have to clean my house, take out the trash, etc. People aren't free to live in filth because it will destroy them to live that way after a while. Machka was acting like no one has to do any labor they don't want to, but that's just not true. We have to do everything that needs to be done, or we have to do it for someone else for pay to afford the expenses we have. There's no freedom to pay others to do everything for you and never work to pay the bills, unless you have an unlimited supply of money somehow and no qualms with spending it without restraint.

Originally Posted by wolfchild
A place where a car-free man is only allowed to marry a car-free women so they can reproduce and pass their car-free genes and produce and entire race of car-free people.
TPs utopia.
I wish you had obnoxiousness-free genes.

You're implying that I'm a car-free racist, but that's not true. I get along with people who drive just as well or better than others who live car free. I just know life would be better for everyone if more people would drive less, that's all.
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Old 10-12-15, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
I think 100 years ago, America was facing some of the issues of rapid economic growth that China is facing today: rapid industrialization, population movement to cities, and the desire to quickly attain the comforts and conveniences of modern life?
We're pretty much in agreement MUCH of the world is currently at... or approaching where America was at a century ago.

Originally Posted by Roody
Unfortunately for China, they are approaching this at a time when we know that such unrestrained growth isn't possible. There's no way the world can survive a billion gasoline powered cars in China, a billion more in India, and another billion more in other rapidly developing countries around the world. They're going to have to build in some other way--electric cars? high speed rail? "Matrix" type cybernetics? Who knows?
They will do as they damn well please.... unless we commit ourselves to kill them all. And even if that is what "fighting climate change" (that we hear about) actually does mean. We could very well loose such a violent conflict. But... apparently your all in.

In reality.... if you've never seen an omelet being made... it might appear overwhelmingly messy. I think Earth has a 3 billion years left in it. The planet will be fine.
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Old 10-12-15, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
A place where a car-free man is only allowed to marry a car-free women so they can reproduce and pass their car-free genes and produce and entire race of car-free people.
TPs utopia.
I would think reproduction would be forbidden for all humans in the utopia screenplay; all the better return the planet to its all natural paradise of undisturbed biomass and shade trees for the wildlife to live without fear of human intervention. A few exceptions might be permitted for the Grand Schemers of the Utopia Screenplay as well as Cheerleaders for The Thinker.
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Old 10-12-15, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Here's the thing, though, Machka. If you call an idea for innovation dark and depressing, you make yourself out to be a happy well-adjusted person, but if I argue the other position and call some idea that has materialized into the present as dark and depressing, you accuse me of being unhappy and maladjusted. You are simply biased in favor of the status quo against prospective innovations.
I am happy and well-adjusted ... and biased in favour of the status quo. I like my world the way it is. It is not dark and depressing. I'm happy here.

Sure, there are always little things that annoy us ... minor things which we feel could be changed ...
But in most cases I have the ability to fix those annoyances, or to make the changes myself, or to figure out a work-around ... or to make suggestions to those who do have the power to make changes with some degree of confidence that gradually, incrementally, changes will be made.

I do not see the need for a great upheaval. I don't want a great upheaval. For the most part, I like things the way they are.

That said, I don't fear change. My life has been a story of change. And the world will continue to change ... change is one of the certainties in life. But hopefully the changes will be good and positive and not dark and depressing.
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Old 10-12-15, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
We're pretty much in agreement MUCH of the world is currently at... or approaching where America was at a century ago.



They will do as they damn well please.... unless we commit ourselves to kill them all. And even if that is what "fighting climate change" (that we hear about) actually does mean. We could very well loose such a violent conflict. But... apparently your all in.

In reality.... if you've never seen an omelet being made... it might appear overwhelmingly messy. I think Earth has a 3 billion years left in it. The planet will be fine.
There are options other than violent conflict or giving in to another country. Many of the problems we face today are global in nature and will require multi-national co-operation. The world is just now entering a process of again trying to come to international agreement on carbon abatement measures. Virtually the entire world has agreed on these measures in the past, other than the United States and to a lesser extent China. But without the co-operation and leadership of the two biggest economies, global success is much less likely and a deadly climate change will begin.
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