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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 11-03-15, 11:05 AM   #1
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At least four children killed by cars while trick-or-treating

This is a widely accepted annual event--innocent children being killed by cars on the one night when people actually walk in our cities and suburbs.

One little girl was thrown to the ground by one car, then hit by a second car that dragged her on the pavement for two miles.

Within two miles of my house, two children were killed by cars while walking to school in separate incidents. This is another annual event that happens when the daylight hours get shorter and kids are killed by motorists while walking to school in the dark. Also widely accepted in our culture, as if it were a natural occurrence beyond human control.

Strangely, no children were killed after being struck by bikes or pedestrians. The solution seems pretty simple!
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Old 11-03-15, 11:26 AM   #2
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In my neighborhood a few years ago, a cyclist was dead on a lawn for a few days until someone realized that's not a Halloween decoration.
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Old 11-03-15, 11:42 AM   #3
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In my neighborhood a few years ago, a cyclist was dead on a lawn for a few days until someone realized that's not a Halloween decoration.
Here in Lansing and suburbs we've had a rash of cyclists being killed by cars this year. Public outcry always used to be to get the bikes out of the streets. Lately I've seen more along the lines of "people need to drive safer" so maybe we're making a little progress?

But true progress would mean people coming to the only logical conclusion--that cars are pretty much always involved in crashes that kill people, so fewer cars would mean fewer fatalities.
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Old 11-03-15, 11:59 AM   #4
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One of the problems with Halloween is lots of kids on the streets, excited about candy. Not necessarily wearing the brightest of clothing. And masks horribly obscure their vision.

Face painting would be MUCH SAFER.

There are accidents of bikes killing pedestrians. Rare, but they do occur, usually with riders racing where they should not be.
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Old 11-03-15, 01:05 PM   #5
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One of the problems with Halloween is lots of kids on the streets, excited about candy. Not necessarily wearing the brightest of clothing. And masks horribly obscure their vision.

Face painting would be MUCH SAFER.

There are accidents of bikes killing pedestrians. Rare, but they do occur, usually with riders racing where they should not be.
Right, blame the kids and the bikes. They had no business being on the roads, I guess. In reality, the majority of "accidents" are caused by the drivers. (Please--call them what they are--crashes, murders, carelessness, negligent homicides.)

Can you even point to more than one or two crashes where a bike killed a pedestrian? Do you remember the last time a child in costume killed a motorist on Halloween? They are so rare as to be almost non-existent.

Here are figures from WHO:
  • Approximately 1.24 million deaths occurred on the world’s roads in 2010
  • In 2010, middle-income countries had the highest road traffic death rates, at 20.1 per 100 000
  • In 2010, 50% of deaths on the world’s roads occured among vulnerable road users

Vulnerable road users include cyclists, pedestrians, costumed kids, and wheelchair users. More than 600,000 a year, and we want to blame it all on the victims! If half of those drivers were riding bikes or walking, there would be half as many "accidents".
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Old 11-03-15, 02:11 PM   #6
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Right, blame the kids and the bikes.
Ever hear of a kid being told to look both ways before crossing a street? Do they seem to need to be reminded to look before they leap more than once in their life?

Those people in cars aren't out to mow down as many goblins and ghosts as possible on Halloween. Nor are they driving on sidewalks to do it (generally).

Intoxication is a problem, and I wouldn't miss alcohol a bit if it was outlawed, but there are some who don't fee the same.

But, for the kids, part of safety is environmental awareness. Any costume that obscures vision, or sound is UNSAFE.
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Old 11-03-15, 02:27 PM   #7
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Can you even point to more than one or two crashes where a bike killed a pedestrian?
Apparently there were two bicycle/pedestrian fatalities in Central Park, NYC in 2 months last year.

Woman brain-dead after getting hit by cyclist in Central Park | New York Post

The reports I read indicated that there weren't any others for a half decade in NYC, but that would seem to indicate that there have been other fatalities.

It doesn't take much hunting to find other bikes killing pedestrians.
Cyclist kills pedestrian; does calling "on your left" not work? - Greater Greater Washington
Pedestrian in fatal bike crash in Palo Alto identified | News | Palo Alto Online |
Was the cyclist who killed a pedestrian reckless? | SF Politics

And, non fatal bicycles hitting pedestrians hard enough to necessitate medical treatment is disturbingly high.
Study: Bikes Hit More Pedestrians Than Previously Thought: Gothamist
Cyclists 'almost as likely' to injure pedestrians as cars| News | The Week UK
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Old 11-03-15, 02:44 PM   #8
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There were 269 fatalities caused by trains in 2014. That is 269 lives that could have been saved if we got rid of trains.
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Old 11-03-15, 02:53 PM   #9
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Apparently there were two bicycle/pedestrian fatalities in Central Park, NYC in 2 months last year.

Woman brain-dead after getting hit by cyclist in Central Park | New York Post

The reports I read indicated that there weren't any others for a half decade in NYC, but that would seem to indicate that there have been other fatalities.

It doesn't take much hunting to find other bikes killing pedestrians.
Cyclist kills pedestrian; does calling "on your left" not work? - Greater Greater Washington
Pedestrian in fatal bike crash in Palo Alto identified | News | Palo Alto Online |
Was the cyclist who killed a pedestrian reckless? | SF Politics

And, non fatal bicycles hitting pedestrians hard enough to necessitate medical treatment is disturbingly high.
Study: Bikes Hit More Pedestrians Than Previously Thought: Gothamist
Cyclists 'almost as likely' to injure pedestrians as cars| News | The Week UK
Sure, Google can find these events. So what? They're still statistically speaking, virtually not happening. Cars killing people swamps these numbers, which is hardy surprising.
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Old 11-03-15, 03:08 PM   #10
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Sure, Google can find these events. So what? They're still statistically speaking, virtually not happening. Cars killing people swamps these numbers, which is hardy surprising.
In 2013 more people killed themselves than were killed in transportation related accidents. Also, there were more accidental poisonings than transportation accidents. There were also more drug induced deaths. There were more than double non-transportation accidental fatalities than transportation fatalities.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
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Old 11-03-15, 03:27 PM   #11
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I read about the NYC accidents on either this website, or RBR last year.

If you counted the number of people killing themselves with cigarettes.. About 480,000 in the USA annually (1,300 a DAY), and about 6 million globally.

As well as about 42,000 annual deaths from second hand smoke.

The total number of vehicle accidents is dwarfed, and even the second hand smoke estimates exceeds the vehicle accidents. And, those four ghosts crossing over... wouldn't even be a footnote.
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Old 11-03-15, 05:35 PM   #12
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Ever hear of a kid being told to look both ways before crossing a street? Do they seem to need to be reminded to look before they leap more than once in their life?

Those people in cars aren't out to mow down as many goblins and ghosts as possible on Halloween. Nor are they driving on sidewalks to do it (generally).

Intoxication is a problem, and I wouldn't miss alcohol a bit if it was outlawed, but there are some who don't fee the same.

But, for the kids, part of safety is environmental awareness. Any costume that obscures vision, or sound is UNSAFE.
Don't you live just east of Springfield (Springtucky, in local jargon)? How many pedestrians have been killed while crossing Main St in crosswalks this year? (At least four, in case you don't want to Google it). Sure, there's about one pedestrian killed by a cyclist nationwide per year, a veritable man-bites-dog event. Motorists plowing into pedestrians who are right in front of them or on sidewalks is so common it barely registers as local news, let alone being a national thing.

Have you ever attempted to exercise your right of way as a pedestrian around here? Give it a go. You'll find that many motorists will speed up rather than yield. You'll get yelled at and harassed. Those habits are what trick-or-treaters find when they venture out for their annual candy walk. It's not the kids' fault that motorists don't obey the law, but the kids are the ones being killed.
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Old 11-03-15, 05:46 PM   #13
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Apparently there were two bicycle/pedestrian fatalities in Central Park, NYC in 2 months last year.

Woman brain-dead after getting hit by cyclist in Central Park | New York Post

The reports I read indicated that there weren't any others for a half decade in NYC, but that would seem to indicate that there have been other fatalities.

It doesn't take much hunting to find other bikes killing pedestrians.
Cyclist kills pedestrian; does calling "on your left" not work? - Greater Greater Washington
Pedestrian in fatal bike crash in Palo Alto identified | News | Palo Alto Online |
Was the cyclist who killed a pedestrian reckless? | SF Politics

And, non fatal bicycles hitting pedestrians hard enough to necessitate medical treatment is disturbingly high.
Study: Bikes Hit More Pedestrians Than Previously Thought: Gothamist
Cyclists 'almost as likely' to injure pedestrians as cars| News | The Week UK
I think you're whitewashing an extremely dangerous problem. Traffic fatalities are the major cause of both childhood injuries and deaths. And almost all of them involve motor vehicles, not bikes or pedestrians. I posted earlier that half of the fatalities involve people who aren't in cars themselves. I'm sure you don't really believe that's OK!
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Old 11-03-15, 05:46 PM   #14
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The solution seems pretty simple!
Yeah ... stop all that Halloween nonsense.
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Old 11-03-15, 05:48 PM   #15
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Yeah ... stop all that Halloween nonsense.
I'm surprised that somebody would joke about this.
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Old 11-03-15, 05:52 PM   #16
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I'm surprised that somebody would joke about this.

I'm not joking.

Here in Australia Halloween isn't much of a thing, very few people do the trick-or-treat bit ... maybe North America needs to consider scaling back. After all, in the interests of health, why are children out begging for candy anyway?
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Old 11-03-15, 06:10 PM   #17
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Have you ever attempted to exercise your right of way as a pedestrian around here? Give it a go. You'll find that many motorists will speed up rather than yield. You'll get yelled at and harassed.
I can attest from experience that this is not just a local problem for you. I try to exercise my rights as a pedestrian, but you have to pick your battles if you want to stay alive. Drivers seldom even look right when turning right on red, for one. If they do look you in the eye, you still might get a 'hand signal' for taking your right of way, even in a marked crosswalk. You really need to assume everyone is trying to kill you.

I find walking much more dangerous than cycling, at intersections at least.
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Old 11-03-15, 06:13 PM   #18
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I'm not joking.

Here in Australia Halloween isn't much of a thing, very few people do the trick-or-treat bit ... maybe North America needs to consider scaling back. After all, in the interests of health, why are children out begging for candy anyway?
First, it's a cultural thing here. Second, a lot more children are hurt and killed by cars than by candy. Instead of turning millions of kids into outlaws, why not ban cars during those two or three hours out of the entire year when the kids are begging for candy? Why is everybody not in a car expected to modify their customs, but car drivers can't be bothered to even slow down a bit on one evening a year?
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Old 11-03-15, 06:36 PM   #19
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Don't you live just east of Springfield (Springtucky, in local jargon)? How many pedestrians have been killed while crossing Main St in crosswalks this year? (At least four, in case you don't want to Google it). Sure, there's about one pedestrian killed by a cyclist nationwide per year, a veritable man-bites-dog event. Motorists plowing into pedestrians who are right in front of them or on sidewalks is so common it barely registers as local news, let alone being a national thing.

Have you ever attempted to exercise your right of way as a pedestrian around here? Give it a go. You'll find that many motorists will speed up rather than yield. You'll get yelled at and harassed. Those habits are what trick-or-treaters find when they venture out for their annual candy walk. It's not the kids' fault that motorists don't obey the law, but the kids are the ones being killed.
The Rosa Parks / Pioneer Parkway bikepath in Springfield actually has posted yield signs for every crosswalk.



I do think they are rather inappropriate, especially since the cross street actually has a stop sign (background). What is the point of telling someone they must yield for a vehicle that is legally required to stop. Even the turning traffic would be required to stop when crossing a lane.

However, I will always yield my "rights" to a 3 ton vehicle.

More often than not, I'll find myself waiting for a car that seems to decide to stop. That happens more in Eugene than Springfield. But, ride on the bikepath behind Bike Friday, and at every crossing, you can stop to wait for traffic to clear, and cars will slam on their brakes to let you get across.

Still, I feel bad for the cars a bit, but I will not step in front of a car until I'm certain cars from both directions are going to stop.
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Old 11-03-15, 06:48 PM   #20
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First, it's a cultural thing here. Second, a lot more children are hurt and killed by cars than by candy. Instead of turning millions of kids into outlaws, why not ban cars during those two or three hours out of the entire year when the kids are begging for candy? Why is everybody not in a car expected to modify their customs, but car drivers can't be bothered to even slow down a bit on one evening a year?
I wouldn't say that more kids are hurt by cars than candy.

Look up "Childhood Obesity Epidemic". (Adults too).

And, Type 2 Diabetes is a SEVERE problem in American society, causing both morbidity and mortality. Yeah, it mainly hits adults, but when do the problems really start?

Now, it is not just a few holidays where kids overindulge in candy. But, perhaps a candy culture.
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Old 11-04-15, 12:05 PM   #21
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I'm not joking.

Here in Australia Halloween isn't much of a thing, very few people do the trick-or-treat bit ... maybe North America needs to consider scaling back. After all, in the interests of health, why are children out begging for candy anyway?
Here in the USA Boxing Day receives little recognition either. You consistently find zero value for society in general to do something that Machka or her Australian comrades don't do. It gets old.
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Old 11-04-15, 01:40 PM   #22
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Second, a lot more children are hurt and killed by cars than by candy. Instead of turning millions of kids into outlaws, why not ban cars during those two or three hours out of the entire year when the kids are begging for candy? Why is everybody not in a car expected to modify their customs, but car drivers can't be bothered to even slow down a bit on one evening a year?
Read what you just typed. Seriously, its like you have taken a position and think you cant back off it at all so you instead double down, consequences be damned!

1- Childhood obesity is scary as hell and is everywhere at prolific rates at this point.
2- Nobody has suggested kids trick-or-treating should be viewed as, much less considered, outlaws.
3- Outlaw cars on roads in all towns across the US? Did you type this without stopping halfway thru to laugh? Its just absurdly unrealistic.
4- Of course cars are expected to slow down during Halloween. I saw this happen in the Chicago burbs, I saw this happen in Mississippi, and I see it here in Iowa. Cars, overall, drive slower in neighborhoods during trick-or-treat hours.
5- What customs are non-drivers forced to modify? You totally lost me here.
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Old 11-04-15, 01:50 PM   #23
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This is a widely accepted annual event--innocent children being killed by cars on the one night when people actually walk in our cities and suburbs.
I have never heard anyone say, and only now have I ever read anyone suggest, that trick-or-treating is a widely accepted event where innocent kids are killed by vehicles. That has literally never been suggested to me in any way until just now. In fact, the exact opposite has always been the case- safety has been discussed in schools and homes thru my childhood and now as a parent.

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This is another annual event that happens when the daylight hours get shorter and kids are killed by motorists while walking to school in the dark. Also widely accepted in our culture, as if it were a natural occurrence beyond human control.
Without knowing the specifics of each event, I don't know how anyone could comment definitively one way or the other. Did the kids run into the street? Did they look both ways? Were the drivers texting or looking away? Were the drivers drunk? I am not blaming kids, so don't be weak minded and suggest that I am. I have not talked with a single person who has said or suggested that kids dying from being hit by cars is just part of growing up and isn't a big deal. Much like your previous absurd comment, I have found the exact opposite of your claim to be true. Communities work to establish safer cross walks. Communities work to teach kids where to cross and how to be safe(make eye contact, don't assume, etc etc). These two things and many others are all efforts to reduce injuries.


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The solution seems pretty simple!
The fact that you think there is a simple solution shows how unrealistic you are and how little you understand the ramifications of change.
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Old 11-04-15, 01:57 PM   #24
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I have never heard anyone say, and only now have I ever read anyone suggest, that trick-or-treating is a widely accepted event where innocent kids are killed by vehicles. That has literally never been suggested to me in any way until just now. In fact, the exact opposite has always been the case- safety has been discussed in schools and homes thru my childhood and now as a parent.
Everyone knows we must sacrifice a few children every year for Samhain in order to keep the winter from being too harsh.
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Old 11-04-15, 02:27 PM   #25
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I wouldn't say that more kids are hurt by cars than candy.

Look up "Childhood Obesity Epidemic". (Adults too).

And, Type 2 Diabetes is a SEVERE problem in American society, causing both morbidity and mortality. Yeah, it mainly hits adults, but when do the problems really start?

Now, it is not just a few holidays where kids overindulge in candy. But, perhaps a candy culture.
Halloween candy is not the cause of obesity. A lifestyle of overeating nearly every day is what does that. It's the sum total of your diet including nutritious food, candy, potato chips, ice cream, etc. I was enjoying Halloween candy and occasional other treats all during my childhood. But I was not overweight. It takes a balance. It doesn't require abolishing candy.

What's too uncommon for most kids these days is a high rate of activity.

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