Siu Blue Wind

Lately in this sub forum "Living Car Free", we've had an increasing amount of complaints about the topics moving more toward politics. Bantering back and forth has occurred, insults thrown, name calling...all things that seem to stray away from the original purpose of this part of the forum. We do have a section for that and it's here..

The spirit of this thread is to share with each other the positives as well as the negatives of living car free and utilizing cycling at its best. In order to keep that, the moderation team will be moving threads that touch on politics to the appropriate forum.

I-Like-To-Bike

Thank you Siu. Noted that you make clear that the spirit of this forum does not mandate ONLY positive comments in support of any subject/opinion posted on this list.

chasm54

I'm a very occasional visitor to this sub-forum, Siu, so I won't be affected. But it's tough to avoid all "politics" when discussing a car-free lifestyle, because choosing to adopt one is often a political choice, influenced by environmental or other non-mainstream economic concerns.

And whatever one's motives for making the choice, living it is often complicated by political decisions, or the lack of them. Urban planning that makes it difficult to cycle or walk, lack of public transportation infrastructure, all that. These and many other constraints are bound to crop up in discussions of living car-free, and they are all in some sense political. Are you really saying they're off-limits?

Roody

then you must define what you mean by "political".. Some of the main reasons for being carfree are "political" by some definitions of the word. Some topics relevant to carfree living include:

• city planning,
• land use and zoning,
• taxation, subsidies, and revenues for highways, public transit, sidewalks, bike lanes, etc., and
• regulation of pollution and climate change caused by car emissions

Of course, I agree that party politics and non-related ideological expressions have no place on a bicycle forum. But the topic of carfree living is just basically political as soon as you've finished talking about the best trailer and whether to use a messenger bag or backpack. If not for so-called political content, how different is this forum from the Utility Biking forum? And look at how few posts and views there are on Utility Biking! It's a useful forum, but one can only say so much about the topic. The rate of change in utility cycling is glacial, and there's very little controversy.

Utility Cycling--Threads: 2,564, Posts: 36,760
Living Carfree--Threads: 4,975, Posts: 153,849

As for complaints. I don't get why people have to open threads that are titled and clearly identified as dealing with "political" or controversial content. The majority of threads here are "practical" in nature, so there is plenty of variety for those who don't care for the "political" content.

Strangely, the people who complain loudly about political content are never known to even post in the "practical" threads, yet they will post dozens of times in a "political" thread.

Machka 

loky1179

tandempower

Sometimes the censorship of politics is the most effective political move. Certain posters on LCF want automotivism left alone and they dislike the fact that sharing the roads and cities also means that automotive culture and economics influences car free living. The day everyone posting on this forum lives in a completely car free community will be the day politics and economics are irrelevant to LCF. Until then, censoring those topics is just a way of handicapping the LCF community.

Further, when I use the P&R forum it's with a different mindset than discussing political/economic aspects of LCF. LCF is its own topic, whether in terms of economics, politics, or whatever. Discussing those topics on a more general level is what P&R is for. All that is happening here is certain posters want to shut down others and they are using the moderators to get the upper hand.

Bandera

As an aside I've posted pics of the bicycle that I use instead of a motor vehicle for errands a few times.
In any other sub-form on BF there is usually a response pic of another member's bike or some comment whether it's Road, Commuting, C&V or any other sub-forum with interest in the machine and it's use. In LCF: Zero.

Oddly enough LCF is not actually interested in real bicycles used for car-free activities, it's not really a Bicycle sub-forum at all.

-Bandera

Dahon.Steve

+100000000000000000000000

The motor centrist who visit the forum fight with those who are carfree and they are the first to ask closing it down. I created a thread about how 1 trillion dollars in this nation borrowed for the purchase of automobiles and it was moved. Yet, this figure has the potential to effect everyone on Bike Forums because a collapse of the auto industry could bankrupt our nation.

There is very little to discuss about how the bicycle can enable us to become carfree. In fact, most of that information can be found in other parts of Bike Forums. We come here to discuss other topics and receive motivation.

Dahon.Steve

The reason is simple. Carfree is not bicycle dependent.

We may incorporate bicycles in our quest to remain carfree but this sub-forum is more about history, motivation, economics and current events. For those who are carfree and want to post their commuter bikes, there is a forum for this. Being carfree can involve a bicycle, bus pass, kick scooter or just a good pair of sneakers.

What draws people to this forum more than many of them is the fascination of not having to pay for motor transport. They come here looking for a way out of major bill that's burning a hole in their pocket. They are sick of car payments, tolls, traffic, tickets and just plain car bills. These same members want to cut the second biggest house hold expense and come here looking for an answer.

Unfortunately when they arrive, the threads are usually the same motor centrist who contribute nothing but spend their time discrediting those who are carfree.

loky1179

"Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here."

You are correct. The forum is not about bicycles. Some posters may use bicycles as part of their carfree lifestyle. As I read the forum description, it is intended for people who PREFER to use ALTERNATIVE transportation. That is, they DO NOT prefer cars. Why this forum attracts so many posters that love, love, love their cars, I'll never know. BUT THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR THEM! Read the forum description. If you love, love, love cars, just pass on by.

Personally, I don't care who posts what here. You can post all day long how you love cars, and how you hate the hippies that want to take your cars away, or maybe support raising the gas tax. OOOPs, I just got political. I hope this thread doesn't get moved!!

What really frosts me, however, is that the car lovers are the ones screaming to the mods and getting threads moved. I read the most recent threads by Tandempower & Dahon Steve that got moved to P&R. It was ridiculous. I have never complained to a moderator. If I don't like a post, I DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!!!!

There are many posters who I strongly disagree with. I may think some of them are idiots, or worse. I don't engage them. I don't complain to the moderators. I skip on by their posts, and read the posts from (in my view) thoughtful and intelligent posters.

As far as people not commenting on Bandera's bike pic, oh well. This is not a super active forum. By design, only a small slice of the forum members have any interest in the topic. Even fewer post. I posted a super cute picture of my kid on the Halloween thread. I also got zero responses to that post. Sure, I cried a little, but I got over it. I suggest other members also get over it.

My 2 cents. Wait, who am I kidding. That's my 4 cents. Because money isn't worth what it used to be, due to the shortsighted political decision to pave over our landscape for the almighty automobile. Oh, crap. There I go again, dragging politics into an otherwise lovely discussion >

Bandera

.

That was pretty obvious, but thanks for the support.
Which poses the question of is Why It Exists As a BF sub-forum at all if it's not about Bicycles?

BF management what say you?

-Bandera

Ty0604

How ironic that a post about not having a car in a sub-forum called "Living Car Free" would be closed. Seems counterintuitive

Siu Blue Wind

This subforum is about living car free and the lifestyle. That can include other forms of transportation.

Politics belong in P and R. Nowhere does it say that LCF political topics are not allowed in there. They are. The topics get heated, nasty and there is a reason for P and R being unsearchable and hidden. I'd like to keep all political agendas in P and R please.

It's not that the topics are not allowed, they are just going to be moved.

Siu Blue Wind

Are you talking about the thread that had a lot of attacks on each other and a lot of complaints? Yes, it was closed for that reason, which was stated in the final post.

Ty0604

Yes. I didn't think anyone was attacking anyone. Just some upset people. No big deal.

mconlonx

Technically, as we have been recently reminded, insults and name calling are also not appropriate in P&R.

For that, there is Trollheim...

Machka 

Which might be an appropriate place for certain threads as well.

Siu Blue Wind

True.

Siu Blue Wind

You probably didn't see it because the offensive remarks were deleted. Just like the ones that were posted by the second account that someone created to slam the moderation team, which is also against the rules that you agreed to when you signed up here.

Ty0604

Got it, thanks for clarifying. Some of the messages I got in my inbox weren't too nice but ignored those. They the only "offensive" marks I saw. With that said, what you and I find offensive might differ significantly. My thread started out fine and I'm bummed it went south so fast. A majority of the people responding were having an intellectual conversation. Only takes a few to ruin that though Some people have too much times on their hands.

tandempower

I think this attitude you describe is a big part of why people are trying to restrict what can be posted in LCF and it's wrong because it is a political attitude, only instead of vocalizing their negativity against LCF, they transform it into a will censor and eliminate discussion of motor-centrism within an otherwise LCF world.

They're complaining because they want it censored for everyone, not because they don't want to read it.

I'm sorry if anyone doesn't feel personally welcomed in this forum. I tend to keep my posts on an intellectual level with emotional neutrality because I want to avoid emotional drama and bickering, but I have no problem appreciating someone's bike or family photos. I didn't see these pics, but if I would have and I noticed that the poster is looking for feedback, I'm happy to give it. I think people in this forum get too sensitive about things written and take it personally when there is no personal attack meant by anything said. If I say that automotivism is growing and it's making LCF harder, that isn't directed toward anyone, nor is it said with anger or hatred. It is a problem and I am mentioning with hope that consciousness will spread and efforts will be made to shift transportation growth in the direction of LCF, because it makes LCF easier the more people do it. I do think part of the cause of violence, terrorism, hate, war, etc. in the world has to do with the disconnect between personal choices and the bigger picture, but that doesn't mean I'm for any such negativity. It's just looking at cause and effect and saying so when people are ignoring the causes that lead to certain effects, like hot days leading to bigger storms.

I don't understand how that isn't worth mentioning in the context of LCF. Riding a bike or walking in a widely paved area without shade, filled with heat-emitting cars, is a deterrent for LCF. If we can talk about what kind of bike tires get more flats, why not which kind of roads/areas are hotter and less comfortable for LCF?

wolfchild

I just can't believe that some people on here are sending nasty hateful threatening PMs to one another. And stop complaining to the mods. If you can't disagree with somebody then stay out and don't post.

Ekdog

I get a kick out of the hate mail I get from the anti-carfree crowd, to tell the truth, and I'd rather they spewed their venom in a private message or email than here in this public forum because that way they can get it off of their chests and they don't need to couch their insulting comments in milder third-person jabs, as they often do here to avoid breaking the forum rules.

It's odd how many car lovers are attracted to this little subforum and how vociferously they complain to the mods about us carfree people. I think it's because they sense that their world is changing, which terrifies them, and they come here to lash out at those of us who welcome what the future will bring.

spoiledrotten

I think part of the problem that was faced in the other thread was that the LCF folks were almost bragging about driving a car occasionally, illegally, with no intentions of getting a license or insurance to do so. I just say to those, either be car free or not, but if you're going to be an occasional driver for any reason, get a license and insurance, and do so legally. I don't like my insurance going up because someone chose not to follow the law and drive with proper insurance, caused a wreck, and my non-insured motorist insurance had to kick in. As far as LCF, if you are actually living car free, I'm all for it, and love you guys for that choice. It leaves more gas for me to burn.