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Car Drivers Pushing Back Against Bicycle Lanes In Los Angeles

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Car Drivers Pushing Back Against Bicycle Lanes In Los Angeles

Old 12-23-15, 09:25 AM
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Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
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Old 12-23-15, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Those shade sails aren't anything like tarps, are they?

I agree it's not feasible to have shade trees overhanging highways and major commercial streets, and if you are going on a long recreation ride, you might wear sports clothes and expect to sweat, but it certainly is a benefit to me that much of my commute is on shaded streets. I can bike in my office clothes, or on hot days in my office shirt and shorts and change into long pants when I get to work, and it is a huge time saver and convenience that almost every day of the year I can coast into work without sweating too much and without needing to shower or completely change clothes. So in terms of urban bike lanes, shade has a lot of appeal.

here are a couple of examples of my route (both are on recommended commuting routes as per the city cycling committee):

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65977...!7i3328!8i1664
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.71123...7i13312!8i6656
Around here big oak trees form a canopy, or close to it such that many of my favorite roads are nicely shaded even near the middle of the day. That's even more true for the pedestrians on the sidewalk. You see this much less in more recently developed areas where more cutting has happened.
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Old 12-23-15, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
DZBL's ?
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Old 12-23-15, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
DZBL's ?
Door zone bike lane. https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html

Last edited by Walter S; 12-23-15 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-23-15, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter S
TYVM. INETTB. (Thank you very much. I'd never encountered that term before.)

Last edited by Ekdog; 12-23-15 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 12-23-15, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
Are cyclists really shouting about those bike lanes? This thread seems to end quietly with opinions that a DZBL usually works pretty good.

https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html

I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
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Old 12-23-15, 11:26 AM
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I just gotta say, DZBLs is a horrible acronym.
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Old 12-23-15, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
The easiest way to create a bike lane is by having a paved shoulder and designating it for bikes. They are convenient for pulling over to let emergency vehicles by or other reasons. Talking about them as a 'door zone' scares people out of using them. Obviously a door opening randomly has a booby-trap effect on cyclists like the psychological effect of booby-trap stories and other horror stories used as a deterrent to war during the Vietnam era.

Yes, someone could throw a door open in front of you while you're passing them in the bike lane but mostly people will wait until you pass. It's generally a good idea to slow down when passing a stopped vehicle anyway. I have slowed down to wait for a bus passenger to exit until the point where I thought no one was coming out, only to have to stop on a dime as the person finally stepped out in front of me looking sheepish and apologizing. Fortunately, bikes are light and stop quickly at low speed.
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Old 12-23-15, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
I just gotta say, DZBLs is a horrible acronym.
https://youtu.be/41U78QP8nBk?t=1m [h=1]First computer to sing - Daisy Bell[/h]
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Old 12-23-15, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter S
Are cyclists really shouting about those bike lanes? This thread seems to end quietly with opinions that a DZBL usually works pretty good.

https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html

I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
Lin my area we have class 1 bike lanes, separated from cars in that there is no motorized traffic. Our city engineer says that type costs more than $1,000,000.00 a mile. I don't know for a fact that is true. Class 2 is a painted bike lane for use by bicycles only. They are marked as bike lanes and only emergency parking is allowed. We are told they are $500,000.00 a mile. Cost I am not sure but I was hit by a short stopping car and because it was posted as a bike lane the car was at fault. Class 3 is a whole different animal. They are wide enough for cars to park in leaving 4 to 6 feet marked off from the traffic lane. Bikes and pedestrians can share that 4 to 6 feet. We call those DZBLs. Most open car doors will force you out into traffic. I have been told a Corvette has a door that takes up six feet so I am very cautious passing Corvetts.
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Old 12-24-15, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter S
I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
In my city, we have a considerable number of pickup truck owners, and a standard 7 ft parking space distance is not enough for many newer pickup trucks, with many extending into the bike lane to some degree, with dually pickups extending even further into the bike lane.
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Old 12-24-15, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
Lin my area we have class 1 bike lanes, separated from cars in that there is no motorized traffic. Our city engineer says that type costs more than $1,000,000.00 a mile. I don't know for a fact that is true. Class 2 is a painted bike lane for use by bicycles only. They are marked as bike lanes and only emergency parking is allowed. We are told they are $500,000.00 a mile. Cost I am not sure but I was hit by a short stopping car and because it was posted as a bike lane the car was at fault. Class 3 is a whole different animal. They are wide enough for cars to park in leaving 4 to 6 feet marked off from the traffic lane. Bikes and pedestrians can share that 4 to 6 feet. We call those DZBLs. Most open car doors will force you out into traffic. I have been told a Corvette has a door that takes up six feet so I am very cautious passing Corvetts.
Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.

EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities

Last edited by cooker; 12-24-15 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 12-24-15, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.

EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
So far, in almost every jurisdiction in North America, a study must be done proving that a proposed bike facility will not increase, even by one minute, the time required to drive a car over the street or highway. This study is in addition to environmental impact and other required studies. Obviously this obstructive ordinance adds a lot of expense and time to building bike lanes and other new infrastructure.

One million dollars for a kilometer or two of bike lane is probably still an extreme overstatement. I heard on the radio this morning that a new expressway bridge (I-75 across across the Rouge River in Michigan), plus demolition of the old bridge, is going to cost "only" two million dollars. It's hard to imagine that only a few buckets of paint and a couple signs would cost half the amount of a 12 lane expressway bridge. Even a separate bike path with extensive intersection reconstruction should be a lot less that a whole new bridge.

The Complete Streets ordinances around here require five percent of construction costs to pay for bike and pedestrian infrastructure. That's probably a more reliable estimate of bike stuff compared to car stuff. If a new road costs one million per mile, the bike lane and sidewalk cost will be about $50,000. Restriping an existing road should be considerably cheaper than that.
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Old 12-24-15, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.

EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
As I said it was just what we were told at the very last city counsel meeting I attended. Our group was even part of a study to pick the best streets for these bike lanes. We were there to advocate for bike racks on the main drag through the downtown area. The side issue was bike lanes and we got some class 2 and 3 bike lanes but no bike racks. They marched out the city engineer to give us the cost figures and he listed every single cost involved in painting bike lanes. From new pavement to a crew for each sigh every quarter mile. We only got the few painted lanes by agreeing to wait till they had a repaveing project on the street under consideration. That way they avoided the deprecate cost of a road paving crew. But they still got billed 25k per sign that simply said,bike lane, with the city code on the bottom. Because city workers are involved I personally believe it is simply moving money around to increase their budget for the next year.
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Old 12-24-15, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
As I said it was just what we were told at the very last city counsel meeting I attended. Our group was even part of a study to pick the best streets for these bike lanes. We were there to advocate for bike racks on the main drag through the downtown area. The side issue was bike lanes and we got some class 2 and 3 bike lanes but no bike racks. They marched out the city engineer to give us the cost figures and he listed every single cost involved in painting bike lanes. From new pavement to a crew for each sigh every quarter mile. We only got the few painted lanes by agreeing to wait till they had a repaveing project on the street under consideration. That way they avoided the deprecate cost of a road paving crew. But they still got billed 25k per sign that simply said,bike lane, with the city code on the bottom. Because city workers are involved I personally believe it is simply moving money around to increase their budget for the next year.
Congratlations on getting involved.

BTW, are you certain that it's city workers (who probably make less than $20 an hour) who are getting all that money on road construction? Around here, major road work is done by contracted private sector construction companies, not by the city workers. The city directly does only simple road maintenance.
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Old 12-24-15, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Congratlations on getting involved.

BTW, are you certain that it's city workers (who probably make less than $20 an hour) who are getting all that money on road construction? Around here, major road work is done by contracted private sector construction companies, not by the city workers. The city directly does only simple road maintenance.
Here it would be city workers. County work is sub contracted as is much of the state projects. When you go to complain about a roadway first you have to find out who is responsible. There is a small municipal airport jut I the edge of the little town. They had the road repaved but there is a 2.5 foot concrete flat gutter separating the road from the parking turn outs. They left a gap of about one inch between the blacktop and the concrete. That is just about the same size of a 700x23-28 tire. Some of our friends have gone down getting a wheel stuck in that groove. We complained to the city and they informed us it wasn't a city street. We figured it was airport property but they denied it was their's. Finally the county was contacted and they said it was done under private contract. They did fix some of it but only the particular part we complained about. So we learned a lot about who paves what streets in my area.
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Old 12-24-15, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
But they still got billed 25k per sign that simply said,bike lane, with the city code on the bottom. Because city workers are involved I personally believe it is simply moving money around to increase their budget for the next year.
$25,000 per sign?!?! Is that how much they charge for every other sign as well? If they are so open about what things cost, you should find out how much the big lanes cost and make sure those are the same per square foot pavement as the bike lanes because otherwise it sounds like they're overpricing bike infrastructure as a way of baiting public opposition to it.
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Old 12-24-15, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.

EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
I have some complete streets sites I have visited but reading them takes forever to wade through. Here is a quote from one of them, which adds to my contention that I don't know what the costs are.
CALIFORNIA: The State Department of Transportation has determined that any additional costs of ... city street can cost varies from $6 million per mile to $12 million per mile; new arterials can cost.
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Old 12-26-15, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
I have some complete streets sites I have visited but reading them takes forever to wade through. Here is a quote from one of them, which adds to my contention that I don't know what the costs are.
CALIFORNIA: The State Department of Transportation has determined that any additional costs of ... city street can cost varies from $6 million per mile to $12 million per mile; new arterials can cost.
A link would be nice, if you get a chance.
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Old 12-26-15, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
A link would be nice, if you get a chance.
I have been looking for a line item PDF rather than a summation like I posted. The stuff is massive to wade through. The Government sites over estimate and the cycling sites under estimate.

Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.

ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
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Old 12-26-15, 02:03 PM
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Looking at your source, that $2,500 bike lans sign seems to be a mile of signs (still seems high; but is a lot more believable). As far as the 25K/mile; it includes "Project includes additional ROW to accommodate bicycle lanes, curb gutter sidewalk,lane reconfirmation, assume ~1 mile in length."

Originally Posted by Mobile 155
I have been looking for a line item PDF rather than a summation like I posted. The stuff is massive to wade through. The Government sites over estimate and the cycling sites under estimate.

Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.

ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
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Old 12-26-15, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
$25,000 per sign?!?! Is that how much they charge for every other sign as well? If they are so open about what things cost, you should find out how much the big lanes cost and make sure those are the same per square foot pavement as the bike lanes because otherwise it sounds like they're overpricing bike infrastructure as a way of baiting public opposition to it.
Just like the million dollar toilet seats of the 70s.
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Old 12-26-15, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert C
Looking at your source, that $2,500 bike lans sign seems to be a mile of signs (still seems high; but is a lot more believable). As far as the 25K/mile; it includes "Project includes additional ROW to accommodate bicycle lanes, curb gutter sidewalk,lane reconfirmation, assume ~1 mile in length."
I did find one for LA county that has a figure close to what the city engender quoted. Look on page 2 and total project cost. Page three gives total cost for just sign per mile.

https://dpw.lacounty.gov/pdd/bike/do...pendix%20H.pdf

i might add with the current economy of our little valley the city would cry over $15k per mile for class three signs. $400k would take a bound issue and 1.7 mil would simply not happen without a state grant.

Last edited by Mobile 155; 12-26-15 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 12-26-15, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC
Just like the million dollar toilet seats of the 70s.
That then would be just like an imaginary amount fabricated or grossly exaggerated by a misinformed person.
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Old 12-26-15, 04:02 PM
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It's basic accounting 101: real money is really spent and then it's just a matter of spreading the costs -- our tax dollars at work.
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