Car Drivers Pushing Back Against Bicycle Lanes In Los Angeles
#76
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Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
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Those shade sails aren't anything like tarps, are they?
I agree it's not feasible to have shade trees overhanging highways and major commercial streets, and if you are going on a long recreation ride, you might wear sports clothes and expect to sweat, but it certainly is a benefit to me that much of my commute is on shaded streets. I can bike in my office clothes, or on hot days in my office shirt and shorts and change into long pants when I get to work, and it is a huge time saver and convenience that almost every day of the year I can coast into work without sweating too much and without needing to shower or completely change clothes. So in terms of urban bike lanes, shade has a lot of appeal.
here are a couple of examples of my route (both are on recommended commuting routes as per the city cycling committee):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65977...!7i3328!8i1664
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.71123...7i13312!8i6656
I agree it's not feasible to have shade trees overhanging highways and major commercial streets, and if you are going on a long recreation ride, you might wear sports clothes and expect to sweat, but it certainly is a benefit to me that much of my commute is on shaded streets. I can bike in my office clothes, or on hot days in my office shirt and shorts and change into long pants when I get to work, and it is a huge time saver and convenience that almost every day of the year I can coast into work without sweating too much and without needing to shower or completely change clothes. So in terms of urban bike lanes, shade has a lot of appeal.
here are a couple of examples of my route (both are on recommended commuting routes as per the city cycling committee):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65977...!7i3328!8i1664
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.71123...7i13312!8i6656
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Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
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Door zone bike lane. https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html
Last edited by Walter S; 12-23-15 at 10:57 AM.
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Door zone bike lane. https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html
Last edited by Ekdog; 12-23-15 at 11:11 AM.
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Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html
I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
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Going back to the OP, a number of motorists may not like bike lanes at first, but I've noticed that when motorists discover that DZBL's make great buffer zones for entering or exiting their vehicles, they usually lighten up on the complaints, cyclists on the otherhand......
Yes, someone could throw a door open in front of you while you're passing them in the bike lane but mostly people will wait until you pass. It's generally a good idea to slow down when passing a stopped vehicle anyway. I have slowed down to wait for a bus passenger to exit until the point where I thought no one was coming out, only to have to stop on a dime as the person finally stepped out in front of me looking sheepish and apologizing. Fortunately, bikes are light and stop quickly at low speed.
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https://youtu.be/41U78QP8nBk?t=1m
[h=1]First computer to sing - Daisy Bell[/h]
#85
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Are cyclists really shouting about those bike lanes? This thread seems to end quietly with opinions that a DZBL usually works pretty good.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html
I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...good-idea.html
I know that in my city, while a car door may enter the lane some, it won't swing all the way across so you have to swerve into traffic.
#86
Banned
In my city, we have a considerable number of pickup truck owners, and a standard 7 ft parking space distance is not enough for many newer pickup trucks, with many extending into the bike lane to some degree, with dually pickups extending even further into the bike lane.
#87
Prefers Cicero
Lin my area we have class 1 bike lanes, separated from cars in that there is no motorized traffic. Our city engineer says that type costs more than $1,000,000.00 a mile. I don't know for a fact that is true. Class 2 is a painted bike lane for use by bicycles only. They are marked as bike lanes and only emergency parking is allowed. We are told they are $500,000.00 a mile. Cost I am not sure but I was hit by a short stopping car and because it was posted as a bike lane the car was at fault. Class 3 is a whole different animal. They are wide enough for cars to park in leaving 4 to 6 feet marked off from the traffic lane. Bikes and pedestrians can share that 4 to 6 feet. We call those DZBLs. Most open car doors will force you out into traffic. I have been told a Corvette has a door that takes up six feet so I am very cautious passing Corvetts.
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
Last edited by cooker; 12-24-15 at 11:31 AM.
#88
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Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
One million dollars for a kilometer or two of bike lane is probably still an extreme overstatement. I heard on the radio this morning that a new expressway bridge (I-75 across across the Rouge River in Michigan), plus demolition of the old bridge, is going to cost "only" two million dollars. It's hard to imagine that only a few buckets of paint and a couple signs would cost half the amount of a 12 lane expressway bridge. Even a separate bike path with extensive intersection reconstruction should be a lot less that a whole new bridge.
The Complete Streets ordinances around here require five percent of construction costs to pay for bike and pedestrian infrastructure. That's probably a more reliable estimate of bike stuff compared to car stuff. If a new road costs one million per mile, the bike lane and sidewalk cost will be about $50,000. Restriping an existing road should be considerably cheaper than that.
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Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
#90
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As I said it was just what we were told at the very last city counsel meeting I attended. Our group was even part of a study to pick the best streets for these bike lanes. We were there to advocate for bike racks on the main drag through the downtown area. The side issue was bike lanes and we got some class 2 and 3 bike lanes but no bike racks. They marched out the city engineer to give us the cost figures and he listed every single cost involved in painting bike lanes. From new pavement to a crew for each sigh every quarter mile. We only got the few painted lanes by agreeing to wait till they had a repaveing project on the street under consideration. That way they avoided the deprecate cost of a road paving crew. But they still got billed 25k per sign that simply said,bike lane, with the city code on the bottom. Because city workers are involved I personally believe it is simply moving money around to increase their budget for the next year.
BTW, are you certain that it's city workers (who probably make less than $20 an hour) who are getting all that money on road construction? Around here, major road work is done by contracted private sector construction companies, not by the city workers. The city directly does only simple road maintenance.
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Congratlations on getting involved.
BTW, are you certain that it's city workers (who probably make less than $20 an hour) who are getting all that money on road construction? Around here, major road work is done by contracted private sector construction companies, not by the city workers. The city directly does only simple road maintenance.
BTW, are you certain that it's city workers (who probably make less than $20 an hour) who are getting all that money on road construction? Around here, major road work is done by contracted private sector construction companies, not by the city workers. The city directly does only simple road maintenance.
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$25,000 per sign?!?! Is that how much they charge for every other sign as well? If they are so open about what things cost, you should find out how much the big lanes cost and make sure those are the same per square foot pavement as the bike lanes because otherwise it sounds like they're overpricing bike infrastructure as a way of baiting public opposition to it.
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Those dollar numbers seem ridiculous. Perhaps it also includes the cost of studying the proposal, estimating the impact on traffic flow, restriping adjacent lanes, holding public meetings, etc, but even so it seems way too high. I wonder if the guy just doesn't like the idea and is trying to discourage it with disinformation.
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
EDIT - estimates vary widely. Here's an estimate of $35,000-$100,000/km and here's one of $100,000-$1,000,000/km, from two neighbouring Canadian cities
CALIFORNIA: The State Department of Transportation has determined that any additional costs of ... city street can cost varies from $6 million per mile to $12 million per mile; new arterials can cost.
#94
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I have some complete streets sites I have visited but reading them takes forever to wade through. Here is a quote from one of them, which adds to my contention that I don't know what the costs are.
CALIFORNIA: The State Department of Transportation has determined that any additional costs of ... city street can cost varies from $6 million per mile to $12 million per mile; new arterials can cost.
CALIFORNIA: The State Department of Transportation has determined that any additional costs of ... city street can cost varies from $6 million per mile to $12 million per mile; new arterials can cost.
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I have been looking for a line item PDF rather than a summation like I posted. The stuff is massive to wade through. The Government sites over estimate and the cycling sites under estimate.
Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.
ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.
ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
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Looking at your source, that $2,500 bike lans sign seems to be a mile of signs (still seems high; but is a lot more believable). As far as the 25K/mile; it includes "Project includes additional ROW to accommodate bicycle lanes, curb gutter sidewalk,lane reconfirmation, assume ~1 mile in length."
I have been looking for a line item PDF rather than a summation like I posted. The stuff is massive to wade through. The Government sites over estimate and the cycling sites under estimate.
Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.
ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
Having worked on a govermnent budget before I believe what happens is we are not given the line item breakdown but what the total costs involved from the EI study to total required reconstruction of the street and curb. The lanes cannot be narrowed so a five foot bike lane requires street repaveing and painting plus in some cases shoulder widening. Montana does have such a breakdown listing each lane and the total project cost. It looks like that is what gets presented to us but using California costs verses Montana. Still look at signage costs on page 2. And then scan total project costs on the same page for Montana.
ftp://ftp.ci.missoula.mt.us/DEV%20ft...st%20table.pdf
#97
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$25,000 per sign?!?! Is that how much they charge for every other sign as well? If they are so open about what things cost, you should find out how much the big lanes cost and make sure those are the same per square foot pavement as the bike lanes because otherwise it sounds like they're overpricing bike infrastructure as a way of baiting public opposition to it.
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Looking at your source, that $2,500 bike lans sign seems to be a mile of signs (still seems high; but is a lot more believable). As far as the 25K/mile; it includes "Project includes additional ROW to accommodate bicycle lanes, curb gutter sidewalk,lane reconfirmation, assume ~1 mile in length."
https://dpw.lacounty.gov/pdd/bike/do...pendix%20H.pdf
i might add with the current economy of our little valley the city would cry over $15k per mile for class three signs. $400k would take a bound issue and 1.7 mil would simply not happen without a state grant.
Last edited by Mobile 155; 12-26-15 at 02:43 PM.
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#100
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It's basic accounting 101: real money is really spent and then it's just a matter of spreading the costs -- our tax dollars at work.