Ice
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@Jim from Boston Thanks for the mention, I keep wondering if there should be a general advice thread on ice and riding. Hmm.
That's interesting, you went down on ice using the 45nrth Xerxes? Were they at high pressure (studs off the ground) or low pressure (studs in regular contact with the ground?).
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
That's interesting, you went down on ice using the 45nrth Xerxes? Were they at high pressure (studs off the ground) or low pressure (studs in regular contact with the ground?).
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
I DO have to admit though, both times I've gone done were non-ideal. The first time I had just finished adjusting my jacket when a car pulled onto the road I was on, I shoved my hand in my pogie and grabbed a bit too much front brake the first time (which locked up for a half second causing me to go down.) It was sliding when it locked up, it didn't throw me. The second time I was about to make a left turn (onto the same road.) I looked over my shoulder and saw a slow moving car 60-70 meters behind me. "Plenty of time" I told myself, "As long as I turn across the lane at THIS instant." I did just that. I leaned ever so slightly, my front tire washed and I went down, sliding a good 20 meters on the ice. Note, I'm not a newbie riding on ice. I have 2 seasons on my nokian studs. I just don't think these studs are quite up to par as my 4 row nokian 26 inch mountain bike tires. (For obvious reasons.) I will keep the Xerxes, but only for non hellishly icy days.
EDIT: OH! One last thing. The Xerxes SUCK to ride at low pressures. Their rolling resistance increases a TON when you get to around the minimum pressure rating. They're awesome at normal pressures for clear pavement, but they are horrid at low pressures (kind of a catch 22 if you read the above.)
Would I recommend them? Probably not. It's safer (albeit slightly slower) to just go with the schwalbe marathon winters. I would love to do a comparison between the Xerxes and normal non studded tires, but I'm afraid to try honestly. (And I don't have any treaded 700c tires available to me.)
Last edited by corrado33; 01-12-16 at 12:12 AM.
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Sorry to hear about that. I hope it's a simple fracture that only needs immobilization vs. something more serious needing pins and the like. Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery from what I hope turns out to only be an inconvenience.
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Sorry to hear about that. I hope it's a simple fracture that only needs immobilization vs. something more serious needing pins and the like. Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery from what I hope turns out to only be an inconvenience.
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I just encountered some this morning that almost made me surrender. It was at the top of Cedar Hill Road. A ruptured pipe somewhere under ground meant that a lot of water was covering the road from side to side and 15-20 feet along the road. It being 23 degrees F. Naturally that water was frozen. The kicker is that that part of the road is at least a 13% incline. I stopped the bike half way across the street and very slowly edged my way towards the side of the road, sliding down some times, but eventually succeeding in crossing. Then I continued along side of the road for a ways until the danger was over.
My plan for tomorrow, should I need it. is to do a short-cut through the Baptist church parking lot and hopefully connect with the street farther down.
My plan for tomorrow, should I need it. is to do a short-cut through the Baptist church parking lot and hopefully connect with the street farther down.
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The Nokian 26" Extreme 294 will go right over all of these types of ice. On ice always remember to never bank the bike in a corner. Keep the bike straight up and turn the bars a little. The colder and flater the ice, the better the studs grab the ice and keep you going. With 15-20 psi in mine I go straight over frozen 3" deep foot prints on paths. The low pressure helps a lot with the uneven surface. They grab ice the best. snow no difference from knobbies unless there is hard pack underneath. And Pavement not as good as no studs.
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The Nokian 26" Extreme 294 will go right over all of these types of ice. On ice always remember to never bank the bike in a corner. Keep the bike straight up and turn the bars a little. The colder and flater the ice, the better the studs grab the ice and keep you going. With 15-20 psi in mine I go straight over frozen 3" deep foot prints on paths. The low pressure helps a lot with the uneven surface. They grab ice the best. snow no difference from knobbies unless there is hard pack underneath. And Pavement not as good as no studs.
However, at the exact point I needed to start getting over, a storm drain or something completely blocked the shoulder so I started pulling over without thinking much. Ootherwise I would have stopped and waited for a better crossing. It was my first time going that way, construction blocked my usual path to work, so I was unfamiliar with the road there.
How are the Nokians when there isn't ice? They are awful expensive and it seems like riding them on what would be 99.999% asphalt and concrete would wear them out rapidly.
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Do the Nokian 26" Extreme 294 warn riders of patches of invisible black ice ahead too? Unless a rider assumes black ice is everywhere and never banks in any corner and ALWAYS rides with the bike straight up I doubt that studded tires will help riders avoid black ice mishaps like Artkansas suffered.
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That was my problem, I had been riding on that street for a little while without problem. I did not expect ice.
However, at the exact point I needed to start getting over, a storm drain or something completely blocked the shoulder so I started pulling over without thinking much. Ootherwise I would have stopped and waited for a better crossing. It was my first time going that way, construction blocked my usual path to work, so I was unfamiliar with the road there.
How are the Nokians when there isn't ice? They are awful expensive and it seems like riding them on what would be 99.999% asphalt and concrete would wear them out rapidly.
However, at the exact point I needed to start getting over, a storm drain or something completely blocked the shoulder so I started pulling over without thinking much. Ootherwise I would have stopped and waited for a better crossing. It was my first time going that way, construction blocked my usual path to work, so I was unfamiliar with the road there.
How are the Nokians when there isn't ice? They are awful expensive and it seems like riding them on what would be 99.999% asphalt and concrete would wear them out rapidly.
The studs never get shorter,the end gets rounded, and the tire casing behind the studs lets them sink in a little over time. I have taken out many studs and measured them with a caliper.
The Schwalbe Ice Spike pro has pointed studs, the point wears away quickly. I 'll probably wear them out this year and go back to the old Nokians.
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But then again, why scan for black ice at all if studded tires "work fine" on black ice?
#37
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Guy I know rides his mtn bike with regular knobbies through the winter. I asked about ice and he says, "Ya, it is slippery, but I've figured out that with just the right pressure, it's good enough for some traction. Thing with riding on ice is, it keeps you in the moment -- as long as you are paying 100% attention to your riding 100% of the time, you can ride ice, but the minute your attention wavers, you'll probably go down."
I'm not that zen. I keep a spare bike set up with studded tires... I went cheap, generic tires with steel studs, not the more expensive carbide studs -- for the amount of time I use it, and considering how infrequently I ride when the roads are ice-hazardous, they are fine, have lasted through a few seasons, and I anticipate keeping them for winter duty until they start cracking at the sidewall sometime within the next decade or so.
I'm not that zen. I keep a spare bike set up with studded tires... I went cheap, generic tires with steel studs, not the more expensive carbide studs -- for the amount of time I use it, and considering how infrequently I ride when the roads are ice-hazardous, they are fine, have lasted through a few seasons, and I anticipate keeping them for winter duty until they start cracking at the sidewall sometime within the next decade or so.
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If I wanted to ride a bike in the snow and ice, I'd have to drive 200 miles to do it.
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Really? Can your "scanning" technique reliably spot black ice all the time, even in darkness, far enough ahead to straighten up and avoid changing course, changing lanes, or do any kind of leaning at all in a turn? You must have better eyes than me.
But then again, why scan for black ice at all if studded tires "work fine" on black ice?
But then again, why scan for black ice at all if studded tires "work fine" on black ice?
I always expect ice if conditions make it possible. Keep the bike straight up all the time, even on pavement. Scan the ground and be ready to slip at all times.
All the time means all the time.
A tire working fine on black ice is not slipping when the bike is straight up. If you want to lean your bike when there may be ice, be my guest, wear a helmet. Clearly you have no idea how to ride on ice. In darkness my light is about the same as my car on low beams. I ride straight up anyway. With two studded tires weighing about 2 lbs each, there's no fast anything. Scanning the ground at bicycle speeds is easy when you're used to doing it on a Motorcycle on ice, snow, soft beach sand, hard packed dirt, and soft ground. At extreme low speeds mud, and water up to the seat.
In the right conditions I have ridden across a lake with a friend with no studs on either bike, thick strong ice, but a warm sunny day, the very top is not too slippery if you keep the bike straight up. That is the photo........his Univega, my Litespeed. yes he has on sneakers ???
With cold hard flat ice and on hardpacked snow on the road, I bank the bike when the conditions permit, almost as much as the pavement. Not the same when riding straight over 3" deep footprints hard as rock, that calls for straight up even in a fishtail. Counter steer just like a car and keep the bike up straight, keep pedaling, the back comes into line and keep going.
#40
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Here in Toronto we're about 2 months icy conditions..really couldn't be bothered with studded tires for only 8 weeks, i just load up on podcasts and transit until it goes away..usually by mid-march.. hmmph..
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My previous comments were meant to be skeptical about reliance on super duper studded tires as a satisfactory solution/answer to the dangers of unseen and unexpected patches of black ice on otherwise non slippery road, the conditions encountered by Artkansas when he suffered his surprise accident.
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Do you ride in traffic even though you believe road conditions so bad that you are ready to slip at all times? If so, don't expect much from your helmet. Do you also ride in traffic in icy conditions no different than if you were riding on a trail, lake or some other place where motorized vehicles do not travel?
My previous comments were meant to be skeptical about reliance on super duper studded tires as a satisfactory solution/answer to the dangers of unseen and unexpected patches of black ice on otherwise non slippery road, the conditions encountered by Artkansas when he suffered his surprise accident.
My previous comments were meant to be skeptical about reliance on super duper studded tires as a satisfactory solution/answer to the dangers of unseen and unexpected patches of black ice on otherwise non slippery road, the conditions encountered by Artkansas when he suffered his surprise accident.
I do agree that super fat studded tires will not save you from everything, nothing will.
Black ice is not a problem this way, but, there are many other conditions that super duper tires will not save you from. Slush with nothing hard for the studs to grab, snow hiding frozen ruts, even visible hard frozen ruts. Under these conditions I don't ride in traffic.
I agree big studded tires won't save you from every thing. But when done correctly black ice is not one of them.
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Not every cycling destination can reached by riding on straight wide roads that require no turning maneuvers or riding IN traffic. If unseen black ice is likely on such streets/roads a cyclist reasonably concerned about his own safety should give serious thought to finding an alternate method of transportation for the duration of the icy conditions.
Depending on a helmet and fancy tires for adequate protection from likely black ice on streets/sudden-slip-in-traffic conditions maybe better than carrying a rabbit's foot; but not much.
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Riding keeping the bike up right all the time will in fact allow one to go straight over unseen black ice. I agree doing this next to traffic always has the potential of falling into traffic, and is a bad idea. Every time I encounter black pavement during potential ice forming conditions I ride straight over it and keep the bike straight up. I'm doing it all the time anyway. Studded tires have the best traction on ice...
Black ice is not a problem this way… I agree big studded tires won't save you from every thing. But when done correctly black ice is not one of them.
Black ice is not a problem this way… I agree big studded tires won't save you from every thing. But when done correctly black ice is not one of them.
And an even badder idea if cycling on streets and roads where cycling requires riding IN traffic is the only cycling option for getting to desired destinations, not next to traffic, i.e. narrow traffic lanes with no parallel rideable shoulder or bike lane.
Not every cycling destination can reached by riding on straight wide roads that require no turning maneuvers or riding IN traffic. If unseen black ice is likely on such streets/roads a cyclist reasonably concerned about his own safety should give serious thought to finding an alternate method of transportation for the duration of the icy conditions.
Depending on a helmet and fancy tires for adequate protection from likely black ice on streets/sudden-slip-in-traffic conditions maybe better than carrying a rabbit's foot; but not much.
Not every cycling destination can reached by riding on straight wide roads that require no turning maneuvers or riding IN traffic. If unseen black ice is likely on such streets/roads a cyclist reasonably concerned about his own safety should give serious thought to finding an alternate method of transportation for the duration of the icy conditions.
Depending on a helmet and fancy tires for adequate protection from likely black ice on streets/sudden-slip-in-traffic conditions maybe better than carrying a rabbit's foot; but not much.
Wet Roads or Black Ice?
That Road is narrow, well-traveled, curving, a fairly steep uphill, and virtually impossible to maintain a nearly perfect straight to avoid slipping. Riding a straight line is the only option if you come upon a short stretch of ice, but too nerve-racking for any length; better to walk it.
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And an even badder idea if cycling on streets and roads where cycling requires riding IN traffic is the only cycling option for getting to desired destinations, not next to traffic, i.e. narrow traffic lanes with no parallel rideable shoulder or bike lane.
Not every cycling destination can reached by riding on straight wide roads that require no turning maneuvers or riding IN traffic. If unseen black ice is likely on such streets/roads a cyclist reasonably concerned about his own safety should give serious thought to finding an alternate method of transportation for the duration of the icy conditions.
Depending on a helmet and fancy tires for adequate protection from likely black ice on streets/sudden-slip-in-traffic conditions maybe better than carrying a rabbit's foot; but not much.
Not every cycling destination can reached by riding on straight wide roads that require no turning maneuvers or riding IN traffic. If unseen black ice is likely on such streets/roads a cyclist reasonably concerned about his own safety should give serious thought to finding an alternate method of transportation for the duration of the icy conditions.
Depending on a helmet and fancy tires for adequate protection from likely black ice on streets/sudden-slip-in-traffic conditions maybe better than carrying a rabbit's foot; but not much.
I have only one point. With studded tires that have plenty of studs in the center of the tread so that there are always plenty of studs on the ground, seen or unseen black ice does not require you to change course. You can just ride straight over it without falling. The harder colder flatter and smoother the ice is, the better the studs have something hard to grab, keeping you from falling. Soft snow can be more slippery. I know the initial reaction is that black ice, or any ice is always a problem, especially if you have not been riding on black ice for a few decades. At first it is difficult to convince yourself to even try it. It seems backwards.
You can continue to come up with scenarios that will cause a crash on ice practically forever. After a while it gets to be the same old thing over and over. Last night coming home well after dark, the light gray color of the old pavement was a sharp contrast to the black ice spots, and easy to see, but there no reason to do anything other than just ride over it. Now you can post that on new black pavement that does not work.
#47
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I do some bus riding in the winter, but I really enjoy taking a break from it and studded tires allow me to commute more often in the winter. So far this week, it's two days of bus and two days of riding. Weather is cool but clear, so sounds like another bike day.
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Oh - that's all. Similarly, driving while not crashing into anything will keep you safe in a car. Walking and not falling down is a good way to get around on foot. And if you take a plane then show up on time or they might leave without you.
#50
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The side streets where I live are pretty much ice, snow, or some combination thereof between the first snows and late March/early April, and the bike lanes become places to store snow. Playtime is over - I'm running Nokian Extremes front and rear throughout the winter.
Ice makes it difficult for me to walk places, so I generally opt to ride rather than walk even short distances throughout the winter. With the studs, I've gone down exactly twice in the last two years; both were while hauling a trailer loaded to about 70 lbs, and both were due to operator error (dragging trailer through ice rut, stopping too fast on ice while loaded.)
That said, I enjoy winter riding - a relatively short ride gives me quite a bit of exercise, as well as a fulfilling sense of challenge and adventure. For the most part, I go about my daily business as usual, keeping in mind that my travel time will increase a bit when compared to the rainy and/or warmer times of year.
Ice makes it difficult for me to walk places, so I generally opt to ride rather than walk even short distances throughout the winter. With the studs, I've gone down exactly twice in the last two years; both were while hauling a trailer loaded to about 70 lbs, and both were due to operator error (dragging trailer through ice rut, stopping too fast on ice while loaded.)
That said, I enjoy winter riding - a relatively short ride gives me quite a bit of exercise, as well as a fulfilling sense of challenge and adventure. For the most part, I go about my daily business as usual, keeping in mind that my travel time will increase a bit when compared to the rainy and/or warmer times of year.
Ice biking (riding on frozen lakes and rivers) is especially fun. It's surreal, like being in a new world that's totally shaded in tones of white and off-white. I have seen bobcats within the city limits, as well as drunken ice fishermen and other exotic wildlife.
IME, studs really do work very well. Icy pavement rarely poses a problem. Most of my slide-outs have been on wooden surfaces like boardwalks and docks. One time I rode all over town on glare ice without a single fall or close call. Then I got to parking lot that had been totally cleared of ice. I sped up a little, and wiped out on a patch of rock salt. I broke a couple ribs that time, but I couldn't blame it on the ice.
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