Walter S

Since cars are faster than bikes you can always design a life where cars are necessary.

cooker

Is there a way to make it car lighter? I mentioned one of the sites I work where I fly and take a limo into town, but then usually try to walk to work for the four days. A couple of other places are not near major airports (or even minor ones) and have no regular bus service, so I have to fly and then rent a car and drive 200 km. Fortunately we are doing more consulting by videoconferencing, so they only get one visit a year instead of 3 as they did 10 years ago.

benaroundawhile

Sweet reflectors. Please remove them before them become trail trash as you (maybe?) ride more difficult trails.

Maelochs

Thing is a lot of people cannot much "design" their lives. if you have a spouse, a couple kids, a serious job ... those things define your life.

When I was single I could be car-free because I Could "design" my life---look for jobs withing a cyclo-commute of my home and classes, take extra time to travel, get home late and leave extra early--because riding was generally the best par to of the day and I indulged myself.

One you have to be responsible to and for a bunch of other people, your options shrink---you as a parent have to care for and transport your kids (often,) and you have to adapt to a schedule which suits all the people in the household.

Not everyone can pick a place to live which has easy cycling access to all the necessary stores, the job, the schools (and is also in the best available school district) and all the kids' activities, doctors, etc.

benaroundawhile

This kind of gross generalization is simply silly.

I regularly ride for 3-4 hours without hearing or seeing a car. The longest in the last decade is over 12 hours.

Get off the MUPs, get off the road, and experience the quiet that you seem to be unsuccessfully yearning for.

Walter S

I accept all that. Circumstances have to be right for LCF to work.

350htrr

No... You still get to "design" your life, but with the input of the other person... The kids don't mean sheite, I mean their "opinions"... They grow up with your and your spouses, ideals... It's the way it works...

Maelochs

Sure, the opinions of the children don't matter ... but as parents, most persons want to give their children the best available education, involvement in extra-curricular activities, time with friends, maybe music lessons, maybe tutoring as needed ... and at the very least, provide them with all necessary care and guidance so that those children can grow up into mentally, physically and emotionally healthy adults ...

Most parents want to nurture their children and give their kids chances to explore and learn so they can develop well.

That means the kids can't be left home in dirty diapers, can't be left at school with no way home, and can't be expected to hike a couple dozen miles across town with a big bag of sports gear or schoolbooks or a musical instrument.

As Walter S acknowledges, circumstances have to allow a car-free life ... unless you take your whole life off the grid, do only home-schooling, are content not to have you r children see any other children .... whatever. If you choose a given life and it works for you, good. I make generalizations knowing they will sometimes be wrong specifically.

Maelochs

I do a lot online, Skype meetings and conferences and such, but for some stuff I have to be p[resent and I have to bring some gear. My options are as yours: fly and rent a car and walk, or drive. (I would love to bring a bike, but in almost every case there is no secure place to park.)

I am not sure which actually sues more petrochemicals, flying or biking, but I know that flying and renting a car, and paying for parking at the airport, and then hustling to get the car back before the return flight, is more stress and a Lot more money than driving my car. Since I like to actually make more money than I spend, this becomes a factor.

If I had an unlimited expense account I could take a cab or limo to the airport, then rent a car. Once I get there I am limited by hotel prices---the cheap hotels are the least accessible but often five or six times cheaper than the convenient hotels, so walking is not so much of an option.

I am open to suggestions. if I can think of a better way to do it, i won't hesitate---I like my car and like driving it but after eight or twelve hours it loses some of its appeal.

Best I have been able to do is limit the number of trips I have to make and maximize the work I get done when I travel.

I have considered even renting a motorcycle, but since there is the possibility of rain on the way and I bring a fair amount of stuff, I would have to get a Gold Wing with a trailer, and that probably uses more fuel than my old Honda Civic.

I tell ya, life ain't easy for a middle-class American.

benaroundawhile

Interesting work travel perspectives.

I try to schedule my work travel experience so that I have more time to ride at home.

That means driving to the airport (faster than public transportation, taxi, or Uber), parking in short term regardless of my trip duration, renting a car (or Ubering if the client is in a dense major metro area - Chicago), hotel as close to the client as possible or as close to the airport as possible taking into account traffic flow and meeting times. Walking is only an option in the major metro areas. Most of the time I am driving - Atlanta, Boise, etc.

350htrr

Oh, Yea, You are most certainly right. Most parents are also "brainwashed" Or, at least "pressured" by society/advertising/neighbours/do-gooders/welfare/education system/... to do what is right/advantageous to succeed in todays society... , , , It's just the way it is...

Machka 

So ... how far?

1 km?

300 metres?

cooker

I guess I am lucky that the client (a government agency) reimburses my expenses, but I do like to save the taxpayer a buck here and there. But wouldn't the time saved by flying make better economic sense for you? Or is it a multi-site trip or not near an airport or with awkward connections or something like that?

Machka 

IDK ... Somehow I thought you'd have a story to tell us of cycling several kilometres without motor vehicle traffic ... maybe even 50 or 100 km.


I didn't figure that the night rides we've done where we've cycled 100 km or more with maybe 3 vehicles passing us was all that much.

Or that the long stretches on rail trails and European cycling routes with, perhaps, vehicles at intersections and maybe occasionally on a nearby road, were significant.


For example, I've cycled the bit between Radium Hot Springs and Castle Junction in the middle of the night. That's a lonely stretch of road!! And no mobile phone coverage either. There was, of course, my father's vehicle going past now and then, leap-frogging me to make sure I was OK. But aside from it, I think maybe 2 or 3 other vehicles went by.


And then there was the bit between Bordeaux, France and Lacanau Ocean on the coast. You're onto a cycling path almost right away in Bordeaux, although, of course there are vehicles within sight. But it's not too long before you're out into the middle of nowhere. That path is about 80 km long ... a person could ride a century from the train station in Bordeaux out to Lacanau Ocean and back and hardly encounter a vehicle.




Even Highway 11 between Rocky Mountain House and Saskatchewan River Crossing is pretty light when it comes to traffic. There are, of course, motor vehicles out there, but you can cycle some distance between them. You've all seen me post this photo before ...




And, of course, not as spectacular as that ... most quiet country roads that I've cycled in Alberta, Manitoba and Victoria are indeed quiet country roads. You can go a long distance and only see motor vehicles in driveways ... maybe only be passed by one or two.

Like this, for example ...




And a shot from the 400K we did a few weeks ago ... this was taken during the day (those are two cyclists way up ahead of Rowan in the distance), but Rowan reminded me that we did quite a lengthy stretch in the night where the only motor vehicle we encountered was a police car enquiring as to our well-being. When we told him what we were doing, he wished us well and we all continued on our way.




There's also our favourite rail trail between Wangaratta and Beechworth, a beautifully paved trail that climbs all the way to Beechworth. The whole trail is quite long but that stretch is only about 45 km. It does come near to roads once or twice and intersects with roads at least once, but you may not encounter traffic in those instances because it is pretty quiet up that way.

Seattle Forrest

Can't. Rental bike.

Jseis 

Well, if your on macadam, asphalt, chipseal, oiled dirt, gravel, concrete, graded built path etc 8'+ in width ...chances of you being car-free is zilch as those surfaces wouldn't be there without vehicles. Your bike was likely delivered with a truck, sold to your by a vehicle owner. There's a better chance that the parts (from Asia likely) were assembled/made by a person who doesn't own a "car" but might well own a bike, motorcycle, hopped a bus to work. If you really want to live car free...get a proven method of travel...your feet or a beast of burden.

ZenForest

I have a cabin on Moosehead Lake inherited from my DAD, which he purchased in the late 60's / early 70's...just north of Greenville. I was concieved there (is that TMI ???) and spend 2-3 months per year there currently. Back then, we had to walk a foot trail to access it from the closest main road, but now there is a dirt road for access. My primary goal for getting a bike is to be able to work up the cardio and stamina to be able to peddle in a circle around the entire lake on those logging roads. Today, most of them are fairly smooth gravel, and I am sure to see cars on the south side of the lake........but interesting to see someone mention Greenville, Maine here ! I have driven around the North Side many times w/out ever seeing another vehicle......maybe 60+ to 70 miles.....??

I guesstimate the total trip to be well over a 100 mile trip (but I am still trying to figure that out exactly) ......will undoubtedly see many Deer and Moose, perhaps some Bald Eagles, Beavers along the swampy logging roads for sure....and even a Black Bear perhaps.

1st......I need to get in shape !!

This is a Bucket List thing for me

FBinNY 

Is Holt still flying out of Greenville? It's been decades so if the family still has the business my pilot's grandson would be flying now.

ZenForest

The two I am most familiar with are Curriers (on the Greenville Junction Side), and Jacks (on the Greenville/Lilly Bay Road side of the lake).

While Holt sounds familiar, I am not sure they are still around....

Was your Pilot Roger Holt by any chance ?

Machka 

For reference ...

There was a thread just a little while ago where we talked about the streets we especially liked. Various ones of us talked about those roads and posted photos.

https://www.bikeforums.net/living-car...like-ride.html

Stadjer

You can't be culturally neutral and etnocentric and egocentric at the same time. I don't mind different perspectives and culture influencing observation and interpretation. But what you pretend to be culturally neutral is actually imposing your own specific world views, which are culturally influenced. I'm sure that if you visited the Dutch bible belt you've come across a lot of very narrow minded people, but that's no reason to misinterpret Dutch sayings and expressions. Gezellig for example, applies to anything that has to do with the fun of having company. It can be playing board games with the family at the cosy home, but a drug infested hardcore trance party in a squatted factory buildng or a death metal festival can be gezellig too. I could even volunteer to help refugees with their tax funded furniture shopping and have an afternoon that is gezellig.

With only half of the country significantly above sea level through global warming the USA's oil dependency costs us a lot of money, and if you count in the oil wars and it's consequences the American's thirst for oil is even more at our expense. The Dutch aren't innocent either but if the USA would turn in an energy efficient country it would save the Dutch a lot of money and a lot of trouble. But in general the Dutch like to see themselves as a guiding nation, who's example is followed by others while expressing admiration.

You're not gonna get Dutch cities, just like elephants are exotic animals to some countries, the meaning of the word Dutch in the context of cities means they are located in the Netherlands, excluding all other locations. I believe all people deserve good cycling infrastructure and pleasant cities, but good infrastructure is good because it fits the local geography and culture. Just copying infrastructure will not bring the best infrastructure and learning is different from copying. You can learn from the best but sometimes you can learn more from second best, as long as it's better.

But I think it would be a good thing if the USA had some islands or other recreational area's where cars are excluded from, and a lot of Americans would experience how nice a place without cars can be and take that experience home and into their views on transport policy and infrastructure.


And in those area's would elephants be excluded from the cycle lanes or not?

I've shared my views on cycling, one of those views is that allthough the ability, the pleasure and the need for cycling is universal by the nature of the bicycle, the way people cycle is a cultural expression in itself and will differ from location to location and those differences together with geographical differences will influence what's the best infrastructure. Sharing those views for you was reason to effectively call me a marxist, a bigot, a fascist, and worst of all, a racist and my country and my culture came off even worse.

I'm not easily offended and not very patriottic, I've never felt the need to defend my country and my culture before, I prefer mocking it. But the only reason I don't actually feel offended is because your views are so ill-informed and your supposed study of Europe has been waisted on you to a degree that makes me doubt that you've ever been in Europe at all. But your ignorance is both very agressive and insulting, if I'm pointing out that the Dutch have to be more efficient with space than Americans and can't break parts of housing blocks down to allow wild deer and boar to pass through because lack of space was the reason to build in blocks in the first place, you're claiming it has to do with my wish for 'liebensraum'. I'm not opposed to Liebensraum at all, as it's German for love space. But you meant Lebensraum (living space), which is the German Nazi concept of the right of the Übermenschen to run down beautiful hills with the wind through their blond hair before making lots of aryan babies, that required the Reich to conquer neighbouring countries and move out the native Untermenschen.

That's quite an accusation you're making there, especially to a country that is not free of racism, but still is decades ahead of the USA in that respect and in general a very good place to live for blacks (I can't call them afro-Americans to be politically correct because they're not a American and afro-Dutch would implie a certain hairstyle that is popular, but not universal. Also the associaton between skin colour and a different continent would feel racist). If you want peace you've got to stop picking fights or get hurt. I wasn't looking for a fight, I was just pointing out that means of transport can be out of place, cars on a Wadden island for example are out of place like elephants in NYC. But anything that doesn't fit your personal ideé-fixes and pseudo-philosophical frames is met with agression. If you want peace you've got to kerb that agression, for a peace offer to be taken seriously, you have to accept that people don't have to share all your other views before they can agree or disagree on cycling matters.

Machka 

The rest of us got what you were saying.


I suspect there's a personal thing behind tp's agression toward "the dutch" ... nothing to do with you ... something he'll have to realise and deal with himself. Just a pity he's going through that process in this forum.


Meanwhile ... back to cycling with no traffic ...

Machka 

As Rowan and I cycled the local Cycleway today, I was thinking and remembered two more locations ...


Scotland! There simply wasn't much traffic at all, but there were lots of bicycle paths and quiet country roads.





And Japan ... specifically Hokkaido.




Would love to go back to both areas again.

cooker

These issues do get kind of thrashed to death here, but just to reiterate:

- most of those road surfaces were invented before cars and widespread paving of rural roads was actually initiated for bicycling, so when you enjoy driving on smooth pavement, remember the debt you owe those cyclists.

- you probably won't find anybody here who disagrees that goods are delivered by truck or who is so hard core they would never ride in an ambulance or even a cab. Despite how some "anti-activists" may try to paint it, it isn't a religion or a "car-anonymous" total abstention model. Most people are here because they are interested in being less car dependent themselves, or they are stuck with it for financial reasons and want to make the best or it, or they think society as a whole is too car-centric and this is causing some problems. Nobody is pushing for the total elimination of cars.

-the bicycle is a proven method of travel.

tandempower

You can't expect to go LCF without lifestyle changes when so many lifestyle norms and habits have evolved around driving. It may be, however, that infrastructure changes are only half the problem or less, and changes of attitude, expectations, lifestyle, goals, etc. are also necessary. It's easy for people to cite infrastructure because it's always easier to to cite something external as an excuse not to do something. Think of all the smokers who say it's hard to quit when their colleagues all smoke on breaks or the drinkers who say it's hard to quit when everyone drinks at parties. Social-addiction is a component of most other addictions, I think. If gas prices when up to $10/gallon and going LCF was the difference between keeping your savings and going bankrupt, you'd suddenly see how easy it is to shift to LCF.

Idk if you really understand how deep the rabbit hole of pride goes. People avoid things out of fear of losing face. They defend things they and their friends/families do out of pride. They allow themselves to be shamed because they put pride/emotion over reason as a guide for how to act. There is even a culture of pride that implies pride as an emotional duty, as opposed to humility.

Shaming people for possessiveness requires them to feel a need to redeem their pride by becoming less possessive.

All interesting but have you also thought about the challenge of reducing the ratio of cars to humans generally?

What you call a 'system,' I just think of as a widespread cult that people have been gradually brainwashed into. Is it 'okay to not own' a helicopter? If so, why wouldn't it be 'okay to not own a car.' It's just arbitrary norms based on a culture that eschews independent thought.

What about the problem of sprawl, unshaded pavement, and the ground being devoid of roots that absorb water and sequester carbon from the atmosphere?

The Ford Model T grew hugely popular over a couple decades because no one know what automotive saturation would be like. Then the stock market crashed, the great depression lingered, and finally WWII happened to drastically reduce population. After that, an interstate highway system was built so people could drive into less-populated areas to relieve population pressures in existing cities. Places like FL developed quickly around the automobile without thought to what effects sprawl would have as population expanded to levels that caused congestion and lengthened commutes. Now it's not hard to realize that LCF makes it possible to reduce congestion, but economic patterns and lifestyle expectations have trouble adapting.

There's no real reason why living within a geographical sub-region that's bikeable/walkable should be difficult, but because of land-use patterns that have evolved to put status-achievers in certain neighborhoods far from where they work, it's hard for people to break with the mold and just live close to work in a lower status neighborhood. Now that is happening and causing gentrification because people can't stand to just live by a common standard that poor people can also afford. So economic liberalism is generating continuing pressure for poorer residents to relocate when more affluent residents are gaining ground. If people would just move into affordable areas without driving up prices, rents, and taxes, there wouldn't be displacement, but there is too much business competition on the supply-side and fiscal weakness on the demand-side for that to happen.

I'm sorry it's hard for me to listen to all this logic because it all promotes the idea that everyone can and should own a metal box the size of a small elephant and leave them lying around all over the place wherever they go. Just think how upset people would be if this happened with tents on such a widespread basis.

You should look for an 'automotive innovations and future visions' forum. This is an LCF forum.

I think your mind seems heavily biased in favor of automotive cultural norms.

To do what, exactly? I sometimes think that employers organize employee trips just to collaborate with the larger economy that benefits from them.