I-Like-To-Bike

Here is an LCF business model that should fit the OP's stated objectives:

Walter S

Competition tends to make businesses more efficient. The lack of efficiency in a process leaves the door open for somebody to do it cheaper and undercut the going price. Huge corporations do various things to make competition difficult or impossible. But that doesn't change the effect that competition has when it's allowed to happen.

Stadjer

I like competition, it might even be necessary, but not because it makes businesses more efficient, because that's generally not true. Parcel delivery for example, four different companies having four different drivers driving four different vans through the same street en sometimes delivering at the same adress. How is that efficient?

No one really cares if the job is done efficiently, and no one really should. They want to be efficient in making money, but competition doesn't help that either, it's much more efficient to team up with your competitors and work together to get more money out of it.

There's an incentive to make different processes within the company more efficient to save costs, but most of those processes exist because of competition, and getting rid of those processes all together would be most efficient.

Walter S

People don't behave like ants. If you're not going to have competition then what do you replace it with that will lead to a functional society and economic system?

Stadjer

I'm in favour of competition, I believe in capitalism (not in state capitalism and not in the current perversion of capitalism either) and I want to enjoy it's fruits. But in general it's not good for efficiency and I wonder if it always has nett positive effect on the functionality of society. We're not ants, we want to have choice, in what we do for a living and what we buy, an economy based on competition provides that. It often doesn't really matter what we can choose between, it's more about making the choice itself.

But it has nothing to do with efficiency. That's not the advantage of an economy based on competition. Therefore competition between businesses isn't needed and doesn't work for things everybody needs anyway like fresh water, policing and health care.

Walter S

I agree in general - and I didn't fully get what you're saying originally. On the surface competition serves no practical need and like you say, introduces inefficiency. But since we're human beings in this system, we may need competition just to prime the system. There's not a better proven motivation to create all the comforts of modern society in a way that will really work.

Stadjer

It's probably me. Sometimes I struggle a bit expressing clearly and exactly what I mean.

I agree, but that's no reason to keep it like it is, especially because it evolves by itself and a lot of all good that came out of it wouldn't come out like that in today's economy.

In a random new product, there's a good chance 30% of the price goes into advertisement and other marketing, 10% in legal costs, 15% in financial services and 10% in R&D from 9% is already paid by other because it was public or otherwise non-profit financed because it was done at a university. All because of competition, there are lot of people making money off products and therefore raising the costs without adding value to the product. Competition is in the nature of man but it is organized and refereed by the government anyway. The idea that it's just a free market without any government influence is nonsense. If it's this improductive, in essence capitalism is about production, you might consider changing the rules and refereeing of the market a bit. Not to get rid of competition, but to make sure it's organized in a more productive way.

Dahon.Steve

I make a good living without driving! LOL!

Why would you want to be involved in transportation since it's a low paid profession? To be carfree does not mean I have to make a living off my bicycle. You would struggle big time making a living off a bicycle and it's not necessary.

Having said all that, I find these new low paid jobs from Urber Eats or Caviar may provide extra income. In fact, I'm going to give this a try to see how it's like! LOL!

Machka 

Yup ... me too!

I can take a bus to work, and walk at lunch to run errands, all without using a car ... and make a good living at the same time.

My work also has a personal development program which allows me to go to university, and again ... taking the bus and walking are my transportation methods ... no driving.

And I have the freedom to use my bicycle after work and on weekends (or at lunch too, if I really wanted to).

If I can do all this without driving, why would I want to make a living using my bicycle?

tandempower

Free market competition, if allowed, would pit competitive enterprises against each other in such a way that less-efficient competitors would keep giving up and/or restructuring their business model to match and/or supercede the efficiency of competitors. Taken to its logical ends, this would cause the economy to continually shrink until only the most basic necessities were being produced in the most efficient way. This would also result in maximum free time because very little labor would be needed to produce what hyperefficient consumers need.

Capitalism fails because the people who like it tend to like it because of the purchasing power it affords, and the indulgences they choose to 'invest' that purchasing power in. In a true free market, spending one's profits instead of reinvesting/saving them would result in people running out of money, which would send out a warning signal to others not to waste and thus run out of money. What has happened, however, is that there are so many safety nets, bailouts, and other tricks to prevent big spenders from running out of money and/or prevent competition from allowing others to take over the economy and withhold income from the wasters. So instead of disciplining rationality in the form of minimizing spending and maximizing saving, the invisible hand now is stuck continually chasing the GDP growth driven by waste-spending.

If capitalism was allowed to achieve maximum rationality, however, society would indeed be very functional, and another 'shadow' economy of free time investment would emerge where people would take up the slack of where capitalism failed their desire to live beyond necessity. That's essentially what has happened anyway, only there's no distinction between the industries and markets that are governed by price-competition and those that are governed by liberal spending and market control to prevent competition. So you could create a very efficient bike-based business and undercut your competition, but your competitor could thrive anyway because of big investments, even tax breaks, designed to prevent them from going out of business and cutting off the flows of capital they provide for their various subsidiaries, employees, shareholders, etc.

Machka 

This is not the P&R forum.

The question here is about car-free business ideas.

Or was this thread just a front so that you could start spewing political rubbish again. If you're so desperate to talk politics, there's a forum for that!!! Go there.

I-Like-To-Bike

Aren't they all?
B-b-but there is no Gang of Four there mewing support for P&R walls of words just because they are allegedly related to LCF and the moral/intellectual superiority of those who babble them.

Dave Cutter

I am retired now. But with half a century of work behind me... I can honestly say I never made a penny as a result from driving.

I had a wide and luckily varied career. Most of the jobs I had I drove to work. There was a period once when I lived 17 miles from the place where I worked.
I also walked to and from work for a couple years once.
I've also done some extremely limited work at (not from) home.
I think in most cases, with most jobs, I could have chosen to walk or bicycle to and from work.

Finding.... ways to make money... isn't exactly the same as being passionately involved in a gratifying, well paying, and emotionally satisfying career.

If I had my work career to do-over. I'd forget looking at earning a living and seriously try harder to find something that passionately interested me.

chillyphilly

We are currently in a position of trying to convert our mobile business to electric cycles, but we are very much so on the fence about it. As someone already mentioned, time is money. I see that going carless or car lite can work well for 9-5 job commuters. But for those that are self employed and write off miles, and can work more to make more, time is precious.

I just bought a tadpole trike (soon the be electric) for year round cycling, and am in the process of building a heavy duty cargo trailer. In my business I regularly carry 350-400 lbs, hence the need for an electric trike. For me, the distance I travel would be hard on a cycle (10-35 miles a day). On the short days I can make due, but the longer days would be tough. Plus it would potentially burn more time than I'd like. Also, the reality is that in a vehicle I can write off miles, on a bike I cannot. So if I had to limit myself to one or two less appointments a day, plus forgo writing off miles, it would hardly be worth it.

But, here I am building a trailer to try anyways. We'll see how it goes.

tandempower

No, I responded to Stadjer, who included political/economic/business culture claims in his posts.

You quoted my post in a lighter color to censor the content because you hate it so much

tandempower

How much is the write off worth, in dollars? How much time/distance do you drive around for work? Care to elaborate on the details of your daily travel?

Sounds cool. I wonder how the single rear wheel will handle the added stress of a trailer. How does the weight distribute on a tadpole between the side wheels and the rear wheel?

What is the cargo? I wonder if you could just write off your miles anyway and say that the electric trike is essentially the same as the vehicle you were using before to do the same work. It would be interesting to see if they would make you pay back the money after an audit discovered that you were using an (e)trike instead of a 4+ wheeled motorized vehicle.

tandempower

You could say you drove to deliver a piece of business equipment to and from work, i.e. your body. Human capital is still capital.

chillyphilly

Tandempower,

The mileage writeoff isn't huge, but call it an average writeoff of 20 miles a day, that's 400 miles a month. At worth over 50 cents a mile for the writeoff, that's over 200 dollars a month. Keep in mind this is just regular business trips, there's always a chance of driving more. I'm not worried about that (I could really forego miles, I don't even like keeping track of them) as much as the potential lost revenue per day. We own a small pest services business, so most of the weight carried is fluid, and then ofcourse the equipment. It wouldn't be worth it if we had to cut one or two appointments a day. Ofcourse that is a big "if" right now, since I don't know if I would need to. We live in the Treasure Valley in Idaho, and cover Boise, Eagle, and Meridian. Each appointment is worth 70-90 dollars. That would add up more than anything. If you average at 80x2 a day, x 20 days a month, x 12 months a year, that's potentially over $38,000 in lost revenue by cycling, per year. Obviously for that cost, I'll drive. The only thing that fuels this is my passion for cycling, and my desire to lessen my impact on the environment (I know, sounds hypocritical when spraying pesticides) and live car free. At the moment I'm married with two small kids, and we are very much car lite, despite living on the "wrong" side of the valley to do so. We are a one vehicle family by choice, so I double the work vehicle up. Outside of work the car sits most of the time...we might use it once a week for a family trip, but we cycle most of the time.

I'm not terribly worried about the single rear wheel handling the weight, as much as I am my body, since the rest of the day's work is fairly physical too.

I'd have to look up the IRS's definition of a vehicle. Again, not worried about mileage as much as a loss in appointments. That's why I'm still building the trailer, to test and see how quickly and efficiently I can get from point A to point B. If we were more urban here I would think it would be just as fast as a vehicle, but seeing as we cover a suburban sprawl, it makes things more difficult.

Thanks for the feedback, that's why I wanted to post on here to bounce around some ideas and see what you guys would have to say. I've lurked on this forum for years, especially the car free section, but never joined.

tandempower

It's interesting to think about. My standard deduction always exceeds any spending I could claim so I never bother. How much more would you say you spend on driving, including fuel, vehicle maintenance, and insurance, than the @200/month?

Does the fluid contain much water? Could you somehow get it in a more concentrated form and mix it on site?

How much time could free up if you gave up those two appointments a day, including the driving and time spent working?

I try to keep the house clean to prevent pests, but I get roaches and I use little tablets that seem to keep their numbers down somewhat. Recently I caught two mice with my live trap, which I promptly released out in the woods on the bike road, where I'm pretty sure they gotten eaten by owls almost immediately.

I don't think you can compare pesticide with driving. Pavement is herbicide that lasts for decades. The pesticide chemicals you use probably break down quickly. Idk about the operation that manufactures them. I use bleach sometimes, and I'm sure that has some negative environmental effects too.

The way I look at LCF is not just in terms of direct impact or reduction thereof, but in terms of investing in a future with less pavement and driving-dependency. The more your kids see car-free living, the more they'll consider it a viable option. Even if they reject the ethic completely themselves at some point, they won't be completely oblivious to the possibility. When I was a kid, I wouldn't have even imagine bikes could be used to get around beyond local residential streets. I think it took visiting Europe to think about using a bike beyond the area of, say, a college campus for daily travel.

It would certainly be a neat idea to run a pest-control business by bike. Maybe you could keep bottles of the pesticide you use on site and just drive occasionally when you need to resupply at multiple locations.

What's would a typical distance be between work sites? How many work sites per day?

This quote says that you could deduct actual expenses, including tires, oil, etc. so with a bike that could refer to tires, chain, service/maintenance, etc. maybe.
Everyone has their own values concerning time and money-making, but I am generally good at doing things for myself, so I tend to look for ways to increase my free time. I'm rarely using that free time to maintain the house or the bikes, because they only need repairs occasionally, but I hang dry the laundry and cook/prepare most of the meals to keep costs low.

I like thinking about these kinds of situations and imagining what I would do in others' shoes. People sometimes find me holier than thou but I really don't ultimately care whether people make the same choices as I would. i just don't hesitate to criticize what seems like bad decisions to me. Some people react to anything that resembles criticism with indignation, and then bickering starts. It's not my intention, but I don't feel you have to agree with someone to respect them, so I disagree respectfully and try to keep emotion out of it as much as possible.

Anyway, thanks for joining in with discussion. Just reading is fine, but participating is better, imo.

chillyphilly

We purchase cars when most of the depretiation has hit, plus I shop a lot (last one took about 6 months to find). Our current rig we bought when ten years old, excellent maintenence history, and around 62,000 miles. Driving for us doesn't cost nearly the 9,000 or so dollars "they" say it costs to drive per year. We're in the ballpark of half that or less everything included, and that would be on a high year. 200 deduction would be the low end for a month, but again, I really don't care so much about that. And you're right, deducting the cost of parts for a cycle would be the wise way to go, I had already planned on that. I don't think it would be worth the hassle to write off miles on a cycle, espeacially with a possible audit. But I do know when miles are written off on a vehicle, we get way more out of it, because it doesn't cost us 50+ cents a mile to drive it.

The fluid is mostly water, but anything besides hauling it is not feasible. To maintain a professional business, you cannot fill at the customer's houses. I'd thought of filling other places which may be accessible, but the time plus the possibility of having to go out of the way is not worth it at all. It's unfortunate because the actual weight of all the other equipment is probably around 100 lbs.

As far as freeing up time, that is the dilemma I am at. We cap out at around 8-10 stops a day by motor vehicle. The distance inbetween varies greatly (we're mainly residential) which is why total miles per day can be anywhere from 10-35 miles. If I cycled it, I assume I'd have to cut the 1-2 a day just because it would take me that much longer to get around. Plus there may be a possibility that I would work slower on the jobs because I'm more tired. I'm kind of at a point where I need to physically haul the trailer with the weight and see how much more time it would take me to cycle it. Hence the reason of the trailer build.

You're correct about the break down of the pesticides. They only last around 3 months before ineffective.

I do view cycling as much more sustainable than the behemoths we do use to get around, which is why we only use it for hauling large loads (work) and driving distances that may be unsafe or too far. I love cycling and want my kids to view it as a viable alternative. I was the same way growing up. I rode the heck out of my bike, but can only remember my parents ever getting on a bike once, amd it was for recreation. I see too much in them to pass them up as pure recreation, though I do enjoy them a lot. Plus I think the marketing aspect of it would be utterly awesome, because nobody else does it.

Thanks for the input! It's always good to bounce around ideas and hear someone elses side!

Dave Cutter

YOU could.... thank God I never worked for anyone or corp/company that had such a demeaning view of humans. Nor was I (normally) assigned a particular living area. My transportation decisions were my own.

The biggest transportation problem IMHO... is people look at commuting as an afterthought. Employment and housing are nearly a singular lifestyle. The ability to separate each lifestyle (creating two separate lifestyles) by living a distance from a employer can require a lot of energy/technology.

If some one makes a choice to live further from where they work... than they can walk. Then they've made that lifestyle choice.

All work comes with a lifestyle of some sort. Sometimes... an otherwise great job just doesn't pay enough to afford a great lifestyle. So accepting a job like that (for many) requires an obvious lifestyle choice. As does a job that requires long hard hours (days/weeks/months) away from friends and family. People can't resolve inherent aspects of a job... as an afterthought.

wolfchild

Here is a great business idea: A professional dumpster diver...you don't even need a full-time 9-5 job. Why conform yourself to norms of automotivistic society when you can just ride around and get everything for free.

Dave Cutter

Yep. I've seen that guy.... well... actually a guy with a similar avocation.

There does seem to be some numbers of people who see some sort of nobility in not participating in the societal economic norms. I fail to fully understand this contemporary commitment to poverty. But I lived in an era of peace and free love (rock and roll and drugs) decades ago.... and I try to be accepting.

One of the great advantages now-a-days of wearing a kit with spandex and a helmet.... is NOT being mistaken for a dumpster diver.


OMG... look at that fork.

tandempower

What is demeaning about economic analysis? We are all human capital. There are departments called "human resources." It is demeaning to subjugate yourself to economic productivity but we all do it in various ways to get things done. It is demeaning to do my own dishes for myself and my family but I don't care because I want the dishes to get clean.

I agree. Well put.

These (bad) choices to locate work and residences far from each other snowball as residential areas grow without businesses/jobs nearby and commercial districts grow without residences nearby.

A big part of the problem is that the rich and poor cooperate to make businesses work, but they want to live far away from each other.

Dave Cutter

I am sure there must be truth to those statements.... in some places. But I've been around bit and I have found it is fairly easy to find jobs near living areas.... and vice versa.

But.... I don't support the notion that choosing to commute long distances is inherently bad.

Sure... it's not my cup of tea. But other people don't mind... and I know some really enjoy putting distance between work and home. I even have known some people that travel extensively for work. to each his own.

I place the highest value... on human quality of life. I don't however... believe myself to be the one to choose how other humans should live. It doesn't bother me in the least if others choose to drive to work... however long the drive.