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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 06-19-17, 12:28 PM   #151
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Certainly you don't hold the opinion that only people who share you or Tandempower's imaginative visions are interested in the subject of living car free; or do you?
Quite the opposite - I beat my head against the wall trying to get those people to start threads but they'r having too much fun ****ting on other people's thread to actually contribute anything positive to the forum.

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BTW this thread reminds me of another fellow with peculiar thoughts who "escaped" (in his own mind) from the cult of modern technology, more or less, to live a simple car free life, in a tiny cabin in a remote area and used a bicycle for transportation.
"Kaczynski's original goal was to move out to a secluded place and become self-sufficient so that he could live autonomously. He began to teach himself survival skills such as tracking, edible plant identification, and how to construct primitive technologies such as bow drills. After watching the wild land around him be destroyed by development and industry, he decided it was impossible to live in nature. He performed isolated acts of sabotage and initially targeted the developments near his cabin. The ultimate catalyst which drove him to begin his campaign of bombings was when he went out for a walk to one of his favorite wild spots, only to find that it had been destroyed and replaced with a road."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
Yes, not only are car-free people stinky, they are also serial killers!
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Old 06-19-17, 12:32 PM   #152
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I wish I had a dime for every time you posted a variant of "I don't see that" in response to other posters' observations that do not fall in line with your own preferred vision.
"Observations" LOL - from posters who never back up their allegations with actual quotes. You can say whatever you want if you don't quote, but it doesn't mean you are accurately describing what happens here.
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Old 06-19-17, 01:19 PM   #153
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Maybe I am car free a Jeep isn't really a car.


Here's my other bike and my old Jeep.


Now since I am car free where's the koolaid I want a big glass.

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Old 06-19-17, 01:21 PM   #154
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Quite the opposite - I beat my head against the wall trying to get those people to start threads but they'r having too much fun ****ting on other people's thread to actually contribute anything positive to the forum.
Just more of your circular reasoning, as only positive contributions in your mind are those that high five the imaginative visions and fantasies expounded by the likes of Tandempower and seconded by perhaps at most 2 or 3 other so-called positive contributors.

Note there is one less so-called positive contributor as well as one less TP cheerleader on the LCF ever since the self banished poster's affinity for posting anti-motoriing rant-trolls was pointed out on this list by a moderator.

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Yes, not only are car-free people stinky, they are also serial killers!
Who are you quoting in regards to claiming that car-free people are serial killers?
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Old 06-19-17, 01:31 PM   #155
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Who are you quoting in regards to claiming that car-free people are serial killers?
I included the quote in my post.
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Old 06-19-17, 01:33 PM   #156
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Note there is one less so-called positive contributor as well as one less TP cheerleader on the LCF ever since the self banished poster's affinity for posting anti-motoriing rant-trolls was pointed out on this list by a moderator.
I'm not sure who that is. Backpack guy?

EDIT - I guess you mean Ekdog.

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Old 06-19-17, 02:18 PM   #157
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What about the premise? Do you think there is social pressure to be part of driving culture and that it could be psychologically liberating to give it up?
Two parts about the premise that come to mind. The very fact that this forum exists and that there are those that say they are car free indicates that everyone here realizes LCF is an option. How popular it is or isn't doesn't advance other choices for transportation to the status of cult. Not by traditional standards. Using Star Trek doesn't add to the premise in any way. Unless we were thinking about transporters and space ships being LCF.

But from the perspective of many I think transportation choices are no more socially driven or cult like than electric lights, indoor plumbing or running water. It is simply a tool that many people find easier to use. Much like lumber jacks using chain saws rather than two man cross cut saws. Having been to other countries I believe we live in a society that gives us more choices and freedoms to make those choices than any other country.

To me the whole premise is made up to express a anti populists point of view. No one forces us to live outside of the bigger urban areas or into the urban areas people do that by choice. Each has benefits that attract their adherents. If someone wants to be LCF they can be. Is there consequences for that choice? As far as I know there is consequences for every choice we make.

If popularity is ever made the measure of a cult then we have the cell phone cult that has grown much faster than cars ever did. In fact when I was in Africa hardly anyone had a land line, if you wanted a phone you had a cell phone, even in the small villages. Not saying everyone or even that many had phones but the majority of phones I saw were cell phones. I didn't for a minute consider that social pressure because it seems like the easiest way of building a modern infrastructure in a developing country. But even with the limited choices they have they can still easily be living cell phone free. They can still talk to friends face to face or send written messages. It is just not as easy and someday may not be how the majority communicates. I can be LCF or not and so can every person reading this post. It is not hard to escape. IMHO
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Old 06-19-17, 03:21 PM   #158
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Two parts about the premise that come to mind. The very fact that this forum exists and that there are those that say they are car free indicates that everyone here realizes LCF is an option. How popular it is or isn't doesn't advance other choices for transportation to the status of cult. Not by traditional standards. Using Star Trek doesn't add to the premise in any way. Unless we were thinking about transporters and space ships being LCF.

But from the perspective of many I think transportation choices are no more socially driven or cult like than electric lights, indoor plumbing or running water. It is simply a tool that many people find easier to use. Much like lumber jacks using chain saws rather than two man cross cut saws. Having been to other countries I believe we live in a society that gives us more choices and freedoms to make those choices than any other country.

To me the whole premise is made up to express a anti populists point of view. No one forces us to live outside of the bigger urban areas or into the urban areas people do that by choice. Each has benefits that attract their adherents. If someone wants to be LCF they can be. Is there consequences for that choice? As far as I know there is consequences for every choice we make.

If popularity is ever made the measure of a cult then we have the cell phone cult that has grown much faster than cars ever did. In fact when I was in Africa hardly anyone had a land line, if you wanted a phone you had a cell phone, even in the small villages. Not saying everyone or even that many had phones but the majority of phones I saw were cell phones. I didn't for a minute consider that social pressure because it seems like the easiest way of building a modern infrastructure in a developing country. But even with the limited choices they have they can still easily be living cell phone free. They can still talk to friends face to face or send written messages. It is just not as easy and someday may not be how the majority communicates. I can be LCF or not and so can every person reading this post. It is not hard to escape. IMHO
Well said! Tell me that's you driving that tank?!?
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Old 06-19-17, 03:35 PM   #159
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True, true and, if anyone clung to their horses, preferring instead to dodge rush hour traffic or simply forsake employment opportunities because going over 10-15 mph to get there was seen as an outlandish extravagance invented by the devil, that would be a cult.
Um... yeah.... they call 'em Amish.
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Old 06-19-17, 04:07 PM   #160
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Um... yeah.... they call 'em Amish.
Amish can drive tractors. There are a bunch of them around here and you see them driving their tractors to work, to the store, even to the bar. They'll rig up a trailer and haul all their family and friends around. They push their rules to hypocrisy levels. They also can't have electricity or phones in their houses. There is one family near me that runs a business, and he pushed the no telephone rule by putting a phone booth out front. Every Sunday after church the buggies will be lined up waiting for their turn to use the phone. Now that I think about it they are kind of like the LCF crowd.
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Old 06-19-17, 04:35 PM   #161
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..everyone here realizes LCF is an option. How popular it is or isn't doesn't advance other choices for transportation to the status of cult. Not by traditional standards. Using Star Trek doesn't add to the premise in any way. Unless we were thinking about transporters and space ships being LCF.

But from the perspective of many I think transportation choices are no more socially driven or cult like than electric lights, indoor plumbing or running water. It is simply a tool that many people find easier to use.
I think the OP has already acknowledged that 'cult' might have been too strong a word to describe what he perceives as a culture that normalizes and to some extent whitewashes and socially enforces driving; but on the other hand, the notion that social factors have nothing at all to do with transportation choices seems too extreme to me too. There's no end to the social memes - videos, ads, radio talk show commentary, even comments on bikeforums - mocking utility cyclists or bus riders as somehow being dorks or losers, and that must mean that a lot of people buy into that worldview. So at least some people must be driving out of fear of being judged.
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Old 06-19-17, 04:38 PM   #162
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...

To me the whole premise is made up to express a anti populists point of view. No one forces us to live outside of the bigger urban areas or into the urban areas people do that by choice. Each has benefits that attract their adherents. If someone wants to be LCF they can be. Is there consequences for that choice? As far as I know there is consequences for every choice we make.


... IMHO
Folks that realized as much turned the last election. LCF is a fun idea that many of us tinkered with over various phases of our lives and sometimes out of necessity but mostly desire to take advantage of opportunities, which is the big reason many are not LCF forever. In the real world, time and mobility has value, especially in our highest earning years.
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Old 06-19-17, 04:42 PM   #163
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Amish can drive tractors. There are a bunch of them around here and you see them driving their tractors to work, to the store, even to the bar. They'll rig up a trailer and haul all their family and friends around. They push their rules to hypocrisy levels. They also can't have electricity or phones in their houses. There is one family near me that runs a business, and he pushed the no telephone rule by putting a phone booth out front. Every Sunday after church the buggies will be lined up waiting for their turn to use the phone. Now that I think about it they are kind of like the LCF crowd.
Discussing a specific religious group is definitely outside the realm of this forum
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Old 06-19-17, 04:44 PM   #164
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Folks that realized as much turned the last election. LCF is a fun idea that many of us tinkered with over various phases of our lives and sometimes out of necessity but mostly desire to take advantage of opportunities, which is the big reason many are not LCF forever. In the real world, time and mobility has value, especially in our highest earning years.
The election bit is out of the forum's scope, but your past experience "tinkering with" aspects of LCF would be right on topic - can you tell us more?
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Old 06-19-17, 05:05 PM   #165
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Well said! Tell me that's you driving that tank?!?
I have driven one, it is a mobile 155mm Paladin mobile gun. That one was driving by someone else.
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Old 06-19-17, 05:23 PM   #166
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What about the premise? Do you think there is social pressure to be part of driving culture and that it could be psychologically liberating to give it up?
No, I don't think social pressure per se is a major force in convincing people to drive. Any more than it is to convince them to use electricity. Living in a society where such things are the norm and readily available certainly enables greater usage, but that they are the norm is more social reality than social pressure.

I don't really see the psychological liberation in giving up either of these things, but I appreciate that it could exist for some.
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Old 06-19-17, 05:30 PM   #167
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I think the OP has already acknowledged that 'cult' might have been too strong a word to describe what he perceives as a culture that normalizes and to some extent whitewashes and socially enforces driving; but on the other hand, the notion that social factors have nothing at all to do with transportation choices seems too extreme to me too. There's no end to the social memes - videos, ads, radio talk show commentary, even comments on bikeforums - mocking utility cyclists or bus riders as somehow being dorks or losers, and that must mean that a lot of people buy into that worldview. So at least some people must be driving out of fear of being judged.
Same thing can be said of the Cell phone, people mock anything that others do. People mock the Suburbs and people mock the urban core. If people are fearful of other people's looking at their choice of transportation askance how will the react to their choice of computer, home, or even preferred music when that is questioned? Shoot looking at the ads everyone should own a Iphone or a G-8. If we are waiting for approval from others we will wait till the core of the earth reaches 32 degrees. If we are waiting for society to embrace the hard way of doing things or eschew the new and improved easy way the same core conditions will apply. Mocking is a way of life for most people. The east coast and the west coast mock each other all the time. But we all don't live on the same coast. Europe and the US mock each other. Road cyclists hardly even talk to city cruisers cyclists if publications are to be believed. Wine drinkers often mock brew pub beer drinkers. I have yet to see a lot of people taking such mocking to heart. Does advertising work? I would say yes it does to a degree. Still not everyone falls for the advertising or we would all own the same car, truck, motorcycle, drink the same beer, wine or whiskey and eat the same fast food. But we don't. So still it "looks" like we have a choice if the very people posting in this forum don't care what the ads, talk shows or mockers say. Or have the LCF that post hear somehow received a inoculation that makes them immune to the social pressure that causes everyone else to drive? In other words I disagree with the whole premise of the OP.
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Old 06-19-17, 05:31 PM   #168
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What if someone told you that recreational drugs are a normal part of having fun in the 21st century and you are a prudish teetotaler for resisting? Wouldn't that feel like a cultish peer-pressuring line to push you into using drugs? Calling things 'normal' and 'legitimate' as a way of herding people into cultural participation is a form of social-pressure to the extent that 'normal' and 'legitimate' reference social popularity.
This is in widespread occurrence with the recreational drug alcohol. That it is often omitted from the category of recreational drugs is testament to the power of the social pressure. Drinking alcohol is perfectly normal in this society and we are bombarded by ads cajoling us to join in. And yet the use of this drug has tremendous negative social and economic costs and no discernible benefits.

But I wouldn't call consumption of alcohol a cult behavior.
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Old 06-19-17, 05:34 PM   #169
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I included the quote in my post.
Really? The quote in your post did not include any claim or statement that car-free people are also serial killers!

You continue to respond to your own strawman arguments, but make pretend that you cannot see what other posters find obvious about the nature of some of the nuttiest posts on BF.

Your desire to get posters who make comments that you do not find positive to name the usual suspects for their P&R ranting, is a transparent attempt to get posters booted by the mods for hurting the tender feelings of your pals who are quick to whine about being personally insulted and offended when named in any response that reflects negatively on their "thinking."
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Old 06-19-17, 05:35 PM   #170
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No, I don't think social pressure per se is a major force in convincing people to drive. Any more than it is to convince them to use electricity. Living in a society where such things are the norm and readily available certainly enables greater usage, but that they are the norm is more social reality than social pressure.

I don't really see the psychological liberation in giving up either of these things, but I appreciate that it could exist for some.
But it's not just social "pressure"... It's also physical, the way cities are laid out, the way infrastructure favour's vehicles, the easier way you can get to your job and not use a bus, and roll up with a "Cadillac" instead of a "nova", err Prius C, pushes you to own a car/vehicle/and today that vehicle has become a pick-up truck, (the "worst type" of vehicle for transporting people, that gets 1/2 or even 1/4 of the gas mileage, well because you can afford it, and well also because a truck is "better than a car" in the/your social standing's, around here anyways...

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Old 06-19-17, 05:46 PM   #171
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Having been to other countries I believe we live in a society that gives us more choices and freedoms to make those choices than any other country.
The principle of governance by (responsible) liberty is why I love the US, but you have to have rose-colored glasses on to believe that US citizens live up to the ideals so many have fought and died for. Many people have migrated from Europe and elsewhere without embracing liberty at the most radical level, preferring to live according to social-cultural submission in exchange for economic benefits. That said, the US has been described as a crucible where respect for liberty and democracy gradually emerge through the generations.

If you truly believe in liberty, however, you wouldn't post negative comments with pictures of people piled on Indian trains. If people wanted to pile onto freight trains here, shouldn't their liberty to do so be respected as much as it is in India? Don't you question it when something is less regulated outside the US than within US states? Shouldn't people be able to live in tents? DIY cottages, bike or walk to work, wear whatever clothes they want, etc. without facing negative cultural judgement and the emotion discrimination that comes with it? If people truly loved the principle of liberty, don't you think they would question their own negativity regarding lifestyle choices that are different from theirs but not harmful?

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To me the whole premise is made up to express a anti populists point of view. No one forces us to live outside of the bigger urban areas or into the urban areas people do that by choice. Each has benefits that attract their adherents. If someone wants to be LCF they can be.
And yet numerous people will pat you on the back and/or give you a wink/nod when/if you get a car. They'll basically welcome you into fold, but why should there be any 'fold' mentality at all in the first place?

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Is there consequences for that choice? As far as I know there is consequences for every choice we make.
There are material consequences and social-cultural consequences. The material consequence of biking for transportation is that you're going to average between 10 and 20mph and you're going to have to deal with weather. The social-cultural consequence is that people are going to view any noticeable difference between you and your driving colleagues as an avoidable byproduct of your choice not to drive, instead of just accepting them as a normal byproduct of coming to work.

If your car gets a flat tire or has engine problems on your way to work, it will be understood that you miss half the day or the day waiting to get it towed to a repair shop and/or finding an alternate mode. Some people even miss multiple days of work because their car isn't running, or they get rides. If you get a flat tire or have mechanical problems on your bike, it is likely to be viewed as evidence that cycling is not reliable transportation. People assume cars are reliable until they're not, but they assume bikes are not reliable even when they are.
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Old 06-19-17, 05:55 PM   #172
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This is in widespread occurrence with the recreational drug alcohol. That it is often omitted from the category of recreational drugs is testament to the power of the social pressure. Drinking alcohol is perfectly normal in this society and we are bombarded by ads cajoling us to join in. And yet the use of this drug has tremendous negative social and economic costs and no discernible benefits.

But I wouldn't call consumption of alcohol a cult behavior.
You should watch the classic Star Trek episode 'Return of the Archons.' Part of the cult in that episode involves a punctually-scheduled 'festival' where everyone goes completely wild, fighting, raping, and pillaging in the streets. It's very similar to our concept of working and staying sober during the week and then 'cutting loose' on weekends by drinking alcohol and releasing your inhibitions. It's not presented as a cult or people would question it. The whole basis for getting people into a cult is getting it to pass any aversion they might have to it as cultish. That's why fictional cult movies always exaggerate peer-pressure strategies and social sanctions, because otherwise the audience wouldn't get that the movie is shedding critical light on the cult.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:28 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
But it's not just social "pressure"... It's also physical, the way cities are laid out, the way infrastructure favour's vehicles, the easier way you can get to your job and not use a bus, and roll up with a "Cadillac" instead of a "nova", err Prius C, pushes you to own a car/vehicle/and today that vehicle has become a pick-up truck, (the "worst type" of vehicle for transporting people, that gets 1/2 or even 1/4 of the gas mileage, well because you can afford it, and well also because a truck is "better than a car" in the/your social standing's, around here anyways...
I drive a pick up because I enjoy it. I don't know a single person who cares and I doubt it influences my social standing, to the extent that I have any, by one iota. I do hope the next one I buy will be electric powered, but when I bought this one eight years ago I thought that would be an option by now. That tech is moving more slowly than I hoped.

Our cities tend not to be arranged very well for living without a car. And although I prefer living in a rural area, I favor infrastructure improvements to make urban areas less auto dependent. But unfortunately the cost of doing that really well is too prohibitive to be viable at this point in time. There were actions take to discourage public transit in favor of private autos in the post war era, but I suspect a lot of the design of our cities is a function of growing haphazardly over time in what was initially a substantially agrarian society in a place where settlers had a lot of land at their disposal.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:31 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
The principle of governance by (responsible) liberty is why I love the US, but you have to have rose-colored glasses on to believe that US citizens live up to the ideals so many have fought and died for. Many people have migrated from Europe and elsewhere without embracing liberty at the most radical level, preferring to live according to social-cultural submission in exchange for economic benefits. That said, the US has been described as a crucible where respect for liberty and democracy gradually emerge through the generations.

If you truly believe in liberty, however, you wouldn't post negative comments with pictures of people piled on Indian trains. If people wanted to pile onto freight trains here, shouldn't their liberty to do so be respected as much as it is in India? Don't you question it when something is less regulated outside the US than within US states? Shouldn't people be able to live in tents? DIY cottages, bike or walk to work, wear whatever clothes they want, etc. without facing negative cultural judgement and the emotion discrimination that comes with it? If people truly loved the principle of liberty, don't you think they would question their own negativity regarding lifestyle choices that are different from theirs but not harmful?


And yet numerous people will pat you on the back and/or give you a wink/nod when/if you get a car. They'll basically welcome you into fold, but why should there be any 'fold' mentality at all in the first place?


There are material consequences and social-cultural consequences. The material consequence of biking for transportation is that you're going to average between 10 and 20mph and you're going to have to deal with weather. The social-cultural consequence is that people are going to view any noticeable difference between you and your driving colleagues as an avoidable byproduct of your choice not to drive, instead of just accepting them as a normal byproduct of coming to work.

If your car gets a flat tire or has engine problems on your way to work, it will be understood that you miss half the day or the day waiting to get it towed to a repair shop and/or finding an alternate mode. Some people even miss multiple days of work because their car isn't running, or they get rides. If you get a flat tire or have mechanical problems on your bike, it is likely to be viewed as evidence that cycling is not reliable transportation. People assume cars are reliable until they're not, but they assume bikes are not reliable even when they are.

How do you know what people assume? How do you know what people think about why you are late for work. Do you have certified examples of this. I really don't remember posting a picture of people in India riding on top of trains but I don't think it would be approved of from a safety standpoint on the rails of the US. OSHA might get involved. What is likely to be thought of by others could just as likely be all in your mind. And nothing about the premise of this thread is advanced by Star Trek. Just to let you know that is fiction. It is not automatically understood by many businesses that you will miss a half of a day without loss of pay in many companies here in the US. Still I will stick with the idea we have more choices than India unless you have proof that living there is better. People have proven they can be car free by posting here they are car free. it doesn't say it has to be easy in the description.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:53 PM   #175
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Really? The quote in your post did not include any claim or statement that car-free people are also serial killers!

You continue to respond to your own strawman arguments, but make pretend that you cannot see what other posters find obvious about the nature of some of the nuttiest posts on BF.

Your desire to get posters who make comments that you do not find positive to name the usual suspects for their P&R ranting, is a transparent attempt to get posters booted by the mods for hurting the tender feelings of your pals who are quick to whine about being personally insulted and offended when named in any response that reflects negatively on their "thinking."
I have no interest in getting anyone banned. I dispute your interpretation of what goes on here, and if you make vague assertions without quoting, you're weaseling out of responsibility for your words.
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