Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-07, 07:19 PM   #1
littledog
Ya never know 'til ya try
Thread Starter
 
littledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Northern Illinois
Bikes: Schwinn Cruiser Deluxe Trek 820 MTB Trek 7300FX Hybrid
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Elections are over-gas prices are up

Is it any co-incidence that gas prices fell dramatically before the November elections last year in the USA and that now they are rising up again? I am not into politics very much so maybe this question is irreverent. Also not having a car it is of minor concern to me. It just seems kind of fishy to me though.
littledog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 07:29 PM   #2
fat_bike_nut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Francisco!
Bikes: 2010 Surly LHT (main rider and do-everything bike), 2011 Bike Friday NWT (back-up bike and multi-modal)
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not to get political here, but yes, gas prices do fall dramatically before each election to try to woo voters into voting for the political party that supports the oil companies. Guess which party that would be?
fat_bike_nut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 07:39 PM   #3
Blue Jays
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: United States
Bikes: roadbikes and full-suspension mountainbikes
Posts: 1,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi All-

Prices are essentially controlled by the market and it's all a matter of supply and demand. You want to do a part in helping push prices down? Purchase $10.00 of gas and drive with a quarter-tank rather than filling it to the brim. Who hasn't topped-off their tank when getting ready for a holiday weekend? I think that politics play a far smaller role in gasoline/heating oil costs than we realize.

~ Blue Jays ~
Blue Jays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 08:53 PM   #4
mastershake916
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nor~Cal
Bikes:
Posts: 1,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays
Hi All-

Prices are essentially controlled by the market and it's all a matter of supply and demand. You want to do a part in helping push prices down? Purchase $10.00 of gas and drive with a quarter-tank rather than filling it to the brim. Who hasn't topped-off their tank when getting ready for a holiday weekend? I think that politics play a far smaller role in gasoline/heating oil costs than we realize.

~ Blue Jays ~
But you'll still be buying the same amount of gas.
For every time you do that, there would be 3 other people doing the same thing since they didn't buy it all at once...
mastershake916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 10:11 PM   #5
Blue Jays
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: United States
Bikes: roadbikes and full-suspension mountainbikes
Posts: 1,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi mastershake916-

Fuel economy peaks as a vehicle nears empty because the car is at its lightest. For many vehicles, this could be a 100-pound variation...for trucks, even twice that amount. From a convenience viewpoint, it's a pain-in-the-butt, but it does reduce overall demand and it doe result in improved overall fuel mileage. BTW, 916 as in Ducati? CBR pilot here...

~ Blue Jays ~
Blue Jays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 10:16 PM   #6
Philatio
we are 138
 
Philatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Knoxville, TN
Bikes:
Posts: 678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays
Hi mastershake916-

Fuel economy peaks as a vehicle nears empty because the car is at its lightest. For many vehicles, this could be a 100-pound variation...for trucks, even twice that amount. From a convenience viewpoint, it's a pain-in-the-butt, but it does reduce overall demand and it doe result in improved overall fuel mileage. BTW, 916 as in Ducati? CBR pilot here...

~ Blue Jays ~
I guess that makes sense - but I've always heard you get your best mileage when it's full. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it though.
Philatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 11:48 PM   #7
wheel
Senior Member
 
wheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crystal MN
Bikes:
Posts: 2,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well remember for the firsst time since the 70's demand for oil had not increased for a spell not sure how long after 3 dollar gas.
It reminds me of a ski lodge. Only they wait for summer.
wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-07, 11:51 PM   #8
dynodonn 
Senior Member
 
dynodonn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 7,326
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philatio
I guess that makes sense - but I've always heard you get your best mileage when it's full. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it though.
That's probably true on rear wheel drive cars with a longitudinal transmission and driveshaft shaft. For every one degree in universal joint angle, it causes a three hp parasitic drag, and there are two or three univeral joints on those type of vehicles. Most car manufacturers of these type of cars have factored in universal joint angles for a vehicle with a full tank of fuel. A vehicle with lighter fuel load would have a steeper universal joint causing more parasitic drag, and a decrease in fuel mileage on steady, flat surface driving. In constant stop and go driving, the lighter fuel load should negate the decrease in fuel mileage caused by the parasitic drag of the steeper driveshaft and universal joint angle.
Automotive basics 101 is now dismissed.
dynodonn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 05:45 AM   #9
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,851
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by littledog
Is it any co-incidence that gas prices fell dramatically before the November elections last year in the USA and that now they are rising up again? I am not into politics very much so maybe this question is irreverent. Also not having a car it is of minor concern to me. It just seems kind of fishy to me though.
Write a letter to the editor at your local newspaper. They love to print this tin hat "fishy" conspiracy stuff.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 05:57 AM   #10
linux_author
370H-SSV-0773H
 
linux_author's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Penniless Park, Fla.
Bikes: Merlin Fortius, Specialized Crossroads & Rockhopper, Serotta Fierte, Pedal Force RS2
Posts: 2,750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
- i hope gas goes up even more... that's more incentive to *not* drive (although we haven been a 'no-commute' household for more than a year now - myself since '97)...
linux_author is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 07:04 AM   #11
gerv 
In the right lane
 
gerv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Des Moines
Bikes: 1974 Huffy 3 speed
Posts: 9,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Write a letter to the editor at your local newspaper. They love to print this tin hat "fishy" conspiracy stuff.
Other "fishy" concepts:
* the US is in Iraq to secure oil supplies
* the US is now eyeing Iran for the same reason
* the world oil price is controlled by a cartel
* lapses in oil supply would have a catastrophic effect on the West
Yeah, feel free to write your editor on any of the above.
gerv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 07:23 AM   #12
gerv 
In the right lane
 
gerv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Des Moines
Bikes: 1974 Huffy 3 speed
Posts: 9,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Oops ... just thought of another conspiracy topic:
* your gasoline purchases go indirectly (probably through Saudi Arabia...) to finance Osama bin Ladin.
Otherwise, what has he been living on all these years. Apparently, he was as poor as dirt in 1998, but now manages to fund a worldwide terror network.
gerv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:59 AM   #13
MarkS
Avatar out of order.
 
MarkS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
They had a guy from UCAN (?) on the radio yesterday. He said prices do indeed go down before elections and up afterwards. He said it wasn't probably presidential or party politics, but that the various actors in oil production (the oil companies, the oil-producing countries) in general didn't want oil to be on the radar when people were set to do their voting.
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
MarkS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 09:56 AM   #14
austropithicus
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS
They had a guy from UCAN (?) on the radio yesterday. He said prices do indeed go down before elections and up afterwards. He said it wasn't probably presidential or party politics, but that the various actors in oil production (the oil companies, the oil-producing countries) in general didn't want oil to be on the radar when people were set to do their voting.
Ah, so the price is not based strictly on supply and demand. There are a handful of corporations that sell retail gasoline in the US. It is not difficult for them to coordinate prices when they see fit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 10:57 AM   #15
gwd
Biker
 
gwd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DC
Bikes: one Recumbent and one Utility Bike
Posts: 1,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS
They had a guy from UCAN (?) on the radio yesterday. He said prices do indeed go down before elections and up afterwards. He said it wasn't probably presidential or party politics, but that the various actors in oil production (the oil companies, the oil-producing countries) in general didn't want oil to be on the radar when people were set to do their voting.
I heard a piece on NPR about a month ago saying something similar, it went into detail about the price of crude and percentage of gasoline output from the refineries showing that the people who ran the refineries maxed the gasoline output just before the elections, now they have to make up the reduced inventories of the other products and produce less gasoline.
gwd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 11:08 AM   #16
MarkS
Avatar out of order.
 
MarkS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by austropithicus
Ah, so the price is not based strictly on supply and demand. There are a handful of corporations that sell retail gasoline in the US. It is not difficult for them to coordinate prices when they see fit.
Yes, within limits. Its not like they're rolling the prices back to 1970 prices -- just suppressing them a few pennies a couple weeks to make people feel like things are getting better. This sort of micro-manipulation happens all the time. Look at all the car dealerships and mattress stores that have "sales" every President's day.
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
MarkS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 12:31 PM   #17
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Bikes:
Posts: 23,579
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
I read that the current price increases are occurring much more rapidly than past increases. And there's no Katrina, 9/11, new war or other crises to explain the current increases.
and you really have to wonder about the impact on the stock market, which has been tanking.

There is a world oil market that explains many of the fluctuations. But it is not a free market by any means. There are many manipulations on both the supply side and the demand side that influences prices. Some of these manipulations are legal or "fair" but many are not.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 12:33 PM   #18
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Bikes:
Posts: 23,579
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays
Hi All-

Prices are essentially controlled by the market and it's all a matter of supply and demand. You want to do a part in helping push prices down? Purchase $10.00 of gas and drive with a quarter-tank rather than filling it to the brim. Who hasn't topped-off their tank when getting ready for a holiday weekend? I think that politics play a far smaller role in gasoline/heating oil costs than we realize.

~ Blue Jays ~
Have you ever considered not driving at all? That thought has occurred to a few of us on this carfree forum!
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:03 PM   #19
mastershake916
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nor~Cal
Bikes:
Posts: 1,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays
Hi mastershake916-

Fuel economy peaks as a vehicle nears empty because the car is at its lightest. For many vehicles, this could be a 100-pound variation...for trucks, even twice that amount. From a convenience viewpoint, it's a pain-in-the-butt, but it does reduce overall demand and it doe result in improved overall fuel mileage. BTW, 916 as in Ducati? CBR pilot here...

~ Blue Jays ~
Sorry, just area code.
I guess that weight can make a difference.

Thank you.
mastershake916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:28 PM   #20
Slow Train
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Bikes: 2006 Specialized S-Works Tricross
Posts: 462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwd
... that the people who ran the refineries maxed the gasoline output just before the elections
I've heard several news reports of that as well. Normally refineries concentrate on producing gasoline up through Labor day (Summer Mode). Then they switch to making home heating oil (Winter mode). Last year reports say they kept the refineries running full tilt in Summer mode through the fall election season flooding the market with excess gasoline.

Those of you who heat your home with oil are very lucky it has been a very mild Winter 'cause I don't think there was a lot of excess supply out there.
Slow Train is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:34 PM   #21
rajman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Bikes: Miyata 600, Marin Larkspur, Marin Muirwoods, GT tequesta, Fuji Ace
Posts: 970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roody
I read that the current price increases are occurring much more rapidly than past increases. And there's no Katrina, 9/11, new war or other crises to explain the current increases.
and you really have to wonder about the impact on the stock market, which has been tanking.

There is a world oil market that explains many of the fluctuations. But it is not a free market by any means. There are many manipulations on both the supply side and the demand side that influences prices. Some of these manipulations are legal or "fair" but many are not.
If you are talking about the price increases in the recent weeks, and I get your location (michigan) correctly, the explanation is simple. Ontario suffered two fires at refineries about two weeks ago that knocked esso's (a division of exxon) refinery capacity to a fraction of it's normal ability to produce. Coupled with an unrelated problem in Montreal and a CN railway strike Ontario had (not sure if they still do) dozens, if not a hundred service stations with no gasoline in the last few weeks.

Some gasoline might have been shipped across the border - but standards in michigan are different than ontario, but it is likely that a lot of people from windsor to sarnia were taking their cars across the border to fill up (more than usual that is).

If you want to find a conspiracy in this latest runup (about 20% increase in Toronto, about 10% in calgary), it's that refinery capacity is extremely tight - which makes gasoline prices quite volatile. The exacerbating factor is that when people see the price increasing - they panic, fill up their tank (particularly if they see stations shut down because of a lack of gas), causing a spike in demand and a commensurate increase in prices.

If people were rational actors they would avoid buying gas when it's expensive and only buy it when it's cheap (below a certain amount). The drivers of America (and any other place) have this power - but they refuse to stop driving in response to price signals. However - the price of gas is just a small fraction of people's gross (and disposable incomes), so they drive no matter what the cost is (look at the UK, etc).
rajman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:43 PM   #22
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,851
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajman

If people were rational actors they would ...
Who wants to talk about rationality when they can sniff out a fishy conspiracy instead?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 08:51 PM   #23
rajman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Bikes: Miyata 600, Marin Larkspur, Marin Muirwoods, GT tequesta, Fuji Ace
Posts: 970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To be clear - I don't think there is any conspiracy - it's pretty obvious that refineries are capital intensive, difficult to get permits to build, and have been terrible investments for years. The oil companies (ESSO in this case) are mandated to turn a profit and they will not make investments that are useless. If motorists really wanted to reduce the price of gas - they just have to use less (however oil can be used for a lot of stuff - so you might just shift production to other things). However - no matter what the price of gas is - if you use less of it, you'll be spending less.

I for one spent about 200 - 400 cdn on gas last year (only because I drove from toronto to calgary - cost split between two).
rajman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 11:03 PM   #24
Platy
Dare to be weird!
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin TX
Bikes: Hybridized 1970s Coppi road bike; Townie city cruiser
Posts: 1,991
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The official word from the Energy Information Administration:

"World oil markets tightened in recent weeks in response to production cuts by members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) and the return of cold winter weather in North America...

"Average monthly motor gasoline prices are expected to increase by nearly 40 cents per gallon from February ($2.28 per gallon) through June, peaking at $2.67 per gallon. Rising crude oil prices and seasonal demand are the principal drivers for this expected increase...

Link

So the official explanation is that higher gas prices are largely due to decreased supply (OPEC oil production cuts) and increased demand (recent cold winter weather in the US). Over at TheOilDrum they have been debating why OPEC production cuts are occurring. That is, if they can sell oil at historically high prices, why are they cutting back? No clear answer has yet emerged from that debate.
Platy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-07, 11:10 PM   #25
Philatio
we are 138
 
Philatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Knoxville, TN
Bikes:
Posts: 678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynodonn
That's probably true on rear wheel drive cars with a longitudinal transmission and driveshaft shaft. For every one degree in universal joint angle, it causes a three hp parasitic drag, and there are two or three univeral joints on those type of vehicles. Most car manufacturers of these type of cars have factored in universal joint angles for a vehicle with a full tank of fuel. A vehicle with lighter fuel load would have a steeper universal joint causing more parasitic drag, and a decrease in fuel mileage on steady, flat surface driving. In constant stop and go driving, the lighter fuel load should negate the decrease in fuel mileage caused by the parasitic drag of the steeper driveshaft and universal joint angle.
Automotive basics 101 is now dismissed.
thanks

Philatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:37 PM.